zilberfrid
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Posts posted by zilberfrid
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11 minutes ago, Mogwai Man said:
I would like to see Forgeworld come up with more alternative bits to use (i.e. stormcast eternal heads) than new models. I'm probably in the minority though.
You might be in the minority, but you're not alone. I selected my last Warhammer purchases on the amount of bits in the set, more than on the sets themselves.
Alternative shields & shieldarms swords & swordarms etc would make sense, as well as things like alternately posed demigryphs/gryph chargers and horses.
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35 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
...what horde meta?
I think most factions skew list fits well underneath the low 70+ limit set by the OP.
Skaven and GSB are probably the only factions that might get over 80.
Free people can also get over 80 in any list over 750 points, and most of the times will. They are, granted, a horde army, but can not be called overpowered.
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1 hour ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:
Wrong. As the hit chance increases the more models the unit has, it is definitely better against large units. Against unit of 6 or less models it does less damage as the chance to do no damage at all is higher.
7+ is hardly a horde, but it is better against multiple enemies, that I agree with
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29 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:
GW managers allow FW at their own discretion. If your GW manager is mostly a car salesman type person, this is often the route they go. Their store is their catalog. They don't want models in their store that they don't sell because someone sees a cool model and goes to buy it but they cannot. So they go online to get it instead.
Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog. He also restricted your table time to an hour max. Which is why no one plays at our GW store. I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.
Your GW manager is not doing himself a service this way. Even a half-hour game easily stretches over an hour with a new player, and none of those cool-but-expensive armies will be fielded.
So new players do not get to see AoS or 40k, nor do they have the time to learn. No new players, no players extending their army to big ones. Who is going to buy his merchandise?
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11 minutes ago, JPjr said:
Because most people that own this stuff buy it to just put in a display cabinet and talk to on long, lonely, winter nights?
That could well be, and the quality would merit that, but she could easily be a nice dragon option of a death wizard for the College, they have a light on the Luminarch, Beast on the griffin, Celestial on the hurricanum, so there is still room.
Start out with a Carmine dragon, add 80 points, give chance to cast and unbind, add a death spell (soulsteal as the unique, which sucks, but having a wizard on a dragon does not suck) and add college keywords. It's not that hard.
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3 minutes ago, Overread said:
@RuneBrush aye and when it goes on last-chance you get a lot of "well I was going to get it" comments by all those who wanted it but never got it. Heck if things like the Warpfire dragon vanished I'd be in that camp right now (though owning some wolfrats and a malanthrope I've at least started some FW collecting!).
I wonder if its something the community could drum up on their own - if a few big name started putting FW models into their tournament winning armies; if a few keystone painters started painting them up more etc... Ergo if the community actually made an effort to promote it on our own and push it we could turn the tide and up the demand and desire. Though its kind of odd thinking we'd have to do GW's marketing for them, but in all truth that's actually pretty common for most wargames which aren't GW with bags of advertising money (heck many waragmes are make or break on their community outreach - even the mighty Privateer Press has suffered terribly since they did away with their community Press-Ganger system)
FW could also help though.
For my faction at least (Free People), there is no reason to buy any of them, except for maybe the generals (that would amount for 46 euros for a single general, a guard captain and a lunatic I can't fit in any unit).
If I am paying 40 euro's for a guard unit, don't make me take the swords out of a regular guard unit, similar for the Ironsides where I would need to take the guns out of regular handgunners. Because it's Freeguild, I would need a stack of the same weapons, and this would give me a lot of waste.
Why put stuff up there without a warscroll? I'm looking at you, Elspeth...
Now this is just one faction, but I can't really recommend Forgeworld based on their offers.
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18 minutes ago, Kramer said:
Hi generals!
I have some old dogs of war pikemen (the leapard kind) and a bit out for 20 more. Is there any use to a big block of 40 spearmen?
Ive been finding all kinds of old dogs of war and empire models at my parents in storage. And I was wondering if there is some use there. The end goal would be a fun 1K list I could let opponents use them in 1k and meeting engagements
or will you rarely stack enough buffs on them to make it worthwhile because they are better used on say thunderers and greatswords
I think spearmen would be best to convert to halberds with shields, or add some spare guns/bows/crossbows and make them militia, spearmen themselves are not often fielded. Militia, I think, are a great option for guards as a rearguard in a great company with greatswords in front.
Militia is a very good way to just chuck random stuff together, I make sure every model has a ranged and melee option, but the original set did not have such considerations.
40 guards are a danger, they hit on 2+ from range or in melee, they wound half the time, and their missiles will make a great company very prickly. Giving that unit a buff to wounds makes them very nasty.
For a 1k unit that's easiest to play, I'd say
- buy one box of Greatswords, make 20 greatswords from them with the most armoured bodies of your spearmen (there are a lot of parts in one box), and try to stretch it to 30 with a few "counts as"
- Get a general (or appoint one from existing miniatures) and give him a War Banner
- Use the 40 spearmen as militia
- Try to find 30 crossbowmen, add where necessary
This army will be a terror on the battlefield, from 20" the double striking crossbows come in, from 14" the 40 militia add to that, and if you get close, they can murderise you in response to anyone attacking troops.
It cannot hold multiple objectives though, for that you would need to split it up
20 militia
30 crossbowmen
10 greatswords
20 militia
10 guard (I'd say sword shield, but halberds would also work fine, or even militia)
10 guard (I'd say sword shield, but halberds would also work fine, or even militia)
1 general
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4 minutes ago, relic456 said:
Sorry, I was referring to this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/01/04/a-quick-heads-up/ , not the more recent leak to LGS'.
Oh, that was from before I even got into the hobby.
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47 minutes ago, relic456 said:
My thing is about the communication, it's a negative experience when stuff like this just pops up with no warning. Especially since they actually gave a heads up for a price increase not too long ago.
Previously, it was leaks because they had to communicate it to resellers. For webstore exclusives, they did not need to.
I had a feeling something like this might happen, so I purchased a few models. As foresight would have it, these models were the least affected by the price hike (Demis, Outriders, Greatswords, and holding off on rocket/volley guns, crossbowmen and guard).
It seems the increase was mostly in the cheapest troops (for Freeguild). Which is odd, because these are the most easily replaced by third party ones.
Also quite a distinction between cogmasters and gunmasters, the former went up 74% if I recall correctly, the latter 0%. Then the cannon/organ gun did not go up, and the rockets/volley gun did.
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16 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:
Demigryph Knights are not allowed in a Great Company as they are not FREEGUILD.
You are correct! I have never tried doing it, but they are the only unit in free peoples not in a Freeguild.
A max of 9 models in a unit would do okay then.
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4 hours ago, Eevika said:
Ok I might have to correct myself horde armies are not that dominant 150+ models. But horde units aka units of 30+ models are the most dominant thing in the game and better than everything else.
Thanks, that evens the discussion a bit. I do like discussing things with people that are willing to shift their views.
Now, as for the horde units, I think discounts and stacking benefits are something that might not be the most interesting choice together, and I do play as Freeguild, so my guard absolutely benefits from this. I cannot speak for other armies very well, I am too new for that.
I would find it more logical to give stacking benefits or large unit discount. For Guards, you really want those full-stack units for the to hit, and the discount when it kicks in is quite severe. It might be better to do the following:
- Guards: 80/160/240/320 (so no discount)
- Crossbowmen/Archers/Handgunners: 100/200/300
- Greatswords 120/220/300 (so half of the discount at a double MSU unit, full reduction at a triple MSU unit)
- Outriders/pistoleers 120/230/320 (some discount, but reduced max unit size to 15, could even be 10, as a light cav unit)
- Demigryphs 130/260/380/500 (minor reduction in larger groups, but they do need to be able to stack to 12 to be able to be in a Great Company.
Similar changes could be made to other armies. Then change objective holding to wounds remaining, and we're quite somewhere, I'd think.
I have read up on plague monks a bit, and they have too many stackable effects,
Contagion Banner + Icon of Pestilence + Doom Gong + Bale-chime seems too much, and they also get a discount.
I'd say remove their discount, and limit these specials to either, so if you have 20, 30 or 40 models, you get one of "Contagion Banner or Icon of Pestilence" and on of "Doom Gong or Bale-chime", and they still are very good (at least compared to what I can field, that is).
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For Freeguild, it's not a lot better.
Now, I really like Manann's Blades as alternate guard models, but they are not complete models, at almost double the price, for no change in rules. I would need to take the swords and shield arms from a guard unit, and put them on these. I would be better served to buy more greatswords and use them as guard units, cheaper, more useful bits and could be built as another troup type, and they would have the fancier clothes extend to their arms (which is what I would want from a premium mini). They also do not include banner or musician options. Had they included swords and shield arms, I would probably purchase this set.
I really like the Ironsides as alternate models for guards, the Ironsides models are well armoured, but the rules do not reflect this if you use them as handgunners or crossbowmen (they could make nice halberdiers or pikemen). They also do not have any weapons, so again, an incomplete unit for the price of two complete ones that do have spare bits. They also do not include banner or musician options. Had they made these into bayonetted handgunners to use as Militia guard, I would probably purchase this set.
Then there is Elspeth on the Carmine dragon, that does not have a warscroll.
We have Lietpold, a nice looking general on horse, but equipped with a great weapon and no shield, which is not the way you want to run generals.
Then we have the three generals, one not reflecting the level of armour at all (being more of a flagellant), two equipped with great weapons (which, again, noone does), and one really nice and usable one (not optimal, but at least not terrible).
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4 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:
I’m not sure that there is really a huge “horde meta”. We still see a lot of large monsters in most lists. I think that’s mostly a by product of which armies happen to be at the top of the power creep curve, and which ones still don’t have 2.0 updates.
With a few exceptions, there seems to be a decent mix of hordes and monsters.
However, spamming hordes is generally better than spamming monsters (or small elite units like Troggoths).
I’m not sure you can fix that easily though.
I believe that too many things would need to be tweaked and it wouldn’t be a simple fix. It would be an AoS 3.0 size re-write.Firstly you’d need battleshock to be more impactful (both for horde and smaller units). In a vacuum, it’s simply a rule that has zero effect on more than half the game. Small/elite units are mostly unaffected, high bravery stuff is mostly unaffected and there’s a huge number of ways to ignore it completely.
Perhaps removing the battleshock immunity command ability would be enough.
Secondly, I’m not sure what the logic behind horde discounts is. Other than to sell more models.
Most of those big units get better the more models they have. They certainly get more efficient in terms of buffs.
This has been somewhat balanced by introducing “wholly within” rules…. However these have not been as consistently rolled out to new armies as I would have expected.Thirdly, monsters need to be tougher.
Either with a different wound value vs monsters (like 40k APOC does now) or some sort of built in -1 to wound modifier. Possibly more wounds but with a more aggressive damage table.
This is tricky because you risk making monsters too good.
Reducing the huge mortal wound spam we’re starting to see might be enough to make monsters more survivable.
Fourthly, monsters (and small elite units) need to be able to contest objectives properly. They’re supposed to be able to do this by killing hordes, but they often just don’t do that well enough. Perhaps there needs to be more cleave type abilities (like chainghasts or kroxigor moon hammers or warpfire throwers).
Moving to a “wounds within 6” instead of a “minis within 6” objective control model would help. That’s probably one of the more obvious changes. I think some troops or heroes could have something similar to 40k “objective controlled” rules where they count as double or reduce enemy control effectiveness in a certain area.
Fifthly, while I’m not a huge fan of the “core tax” method of army design, I do believe some battleline units are too strong. That could just be a case of individually balancing problem units. I feel like most units should have some sort of exploitable weakness. Otherwise, they do everything too well and become an auto-include unit, or get cost increases to the point of no longer being viable.
Another way to reduce horde power is to change the way casualties are removed.
If you had to take casualties from the front (or closest to the attacking enemy), then it makes the activation order in combat even more important. It means that hordes may get less attacks after the plie in move when their front 1-2 ranks get wiped out. Especially those on 32mm bases. While small elite units (3 – 5 models) would likely still have everyone within reach.
That would also make it easier to clear models from objectives because you wouldn’t be able to take casualties from the rear, further away from the objective.
It could also help protect missile troops by making charge distances longer when they kill the closest enemies.
I’m not sure if that would be too drastic of a change though.
Finally, and this is a broader point… make terrain mean something.
The new GHB random terrain rules are a bit more impactful than the old ones, but it’s still just buff/debuff auras in most cases.
I’d like to see more impassable terrain, more LOS blocking terrain, more terrain that slows movement and make positioning important.
Right now, especially with flying units, terrain can be almost completely ignored. And that’s boring.I especially hate how a bit monster or flying unit can magically hover on this one little fence and hit troops behind it. Having to manoeuvre hordes around terrain, or having terrain slow them down could be interesting.
Of course you have to make sure it’s not too exploitable the other way around, but as it stands, I find fighting in and around terrain to be either incredibly annoying or completely irrelevant.Some consider 70+ armies at 2000 points a horde army, while this is where balanced armies live. 120+ models on the table would be a much more realistic number (quite reachable at 1000, by the way).
If you move the goalpost by that much, all non-elite armies are horde armies.
There's the crux of the discussion, unrealistic expectations.
Now I do agree remaining wounds would be a better metric than models, but that's about the only good point.
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My first list is this one
Batallion: Regiment
General on foot (war banner, shield, indomatable, armour of meteoric iron)
General on horse (War banner, shield, flag of the conquerors)
Excelsior war priest
20 Guard sword-shield
10 Pistoleers
10 Outriders
20 Guard militia
10 Greatswords
10 Handgunners
20 Guard sword shield
10 Handgunners
10 handgunners
Demigryphs
So, your basic 3 company regiment, with spare general and healer/dispeller curtosy to the points adjustments. Idea is to have the great company with the Outriders move up as fast as the guard can run while shooting, have the demis protect the flank of one of the generals, and use the greatswords as anvil in the company that also has militia.
I have some ways to alter it, with Karl or battlemage on Griffin, three battle mages, some 30 spare bodies that can become guard, 20 extra greatswords and a knight incantor.
For 2500 points, I'd up two of the guard units to 40, and add a knight incantor (in the beginning) or Cannon (later). Another option would be to remove the warpriest, and add a Knight on Griffin and witch hunter, or to keep the warpriest, and make the Griffin a wizard
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I have seen that Azyrite Ruins has gone up 33 percent in price. That's a bit much in my opinion.
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I think that list has too big a chance for the griffin to become unsupported somewhere.
I'd remove the gunmaster, cannon and battlemage and put in a Luminark with mage. 240 pts this is a more survivable battlemage with built in artillery, alernatively, a battlemage on griffin could work.
You can still add a Knight Azyros, Knight Incantor or even two Excelsior Warpriests (to heal your generals), with the first being probably the best option.
I think the range on the pistol isn't worth losing the shield for, but it is extra damage, of course, and you have a few generals.
I would not fear turn one obliteration, your great company will be a nasty thing to charge into.
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1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:
Bring back Preyton, and change his Warscroll so that each and every one-wound model within 50 inches suffers a Mortal Wound.
That is the worst idea I have seen.
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21 minutes ago, Eevika said:
Well still pretty close im from Finland
Ah Finland, the land of lots of metal, heatwaves, strangers coming over to have a chat, and people giving you rum*.
*Based on one solo-kayakking trip. Others may have other data points, but this is the only one I verified, except for the metal bit, that I have extensively verified.
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17 minutes ago, XReN said:
Also most armies do not support 10-15 model lists and those that do will get countered, unless it's some sort of steam mechs that deal a ton of damage on incredible range
So maybe the expectation of 10-15 model lists on 2000 point armies isn't a very good one? Neither are 400+ model lists a reasonable expectation, even though it is possible to make such a list.
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I think the answer to the people wanting to play lower count games is simply Meeting Engagements, it harshly punishes armies reliant on high model count units, so should do exactly what you need.
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21 minutes ago, XReN said:
I suggest using GHB 2018's warscrolls or Warhammer App, seems like those would have the freshest rules for terrain
Thanks!
I am not going to buy the 2018 GHB, so the app it must be.
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17 minutes ago, Eevika said:
When have I said all high model count armies need to be nerfed. This post is mostly about breaking the horde meta and making low model count armies viable at a competitive level.
You are asking for counters against hordes, say there is a horde meta (according to your definition of horde, being 70+) that needs breaking, and have suggested no specific unit fixes.
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2 minutes ago, XReN said:
Can you go back please and re-read everything I said about weaker armies? Hordes doesn't fix the problems with those armies, battletome does.
You have stated that that is a problem for another discussion.
One that may never come. Battletomes would help, but it's not here, so we cannot take it into consideration.
If there are no other fixes, breaking them further as a byproduct of fixing a few high performing armies is not an option. So come up with specific fixes for the specific overperforming armies.
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3 minutes ago, Eevika said:
Do you think 3 grots holding an objective when 3 dragons are standing on it makes sense?
Ah, there you have me, I did not re-state that I do think remaining wounds is better than model count, and that is a general rule.
AoS 2 - Free Peoples Discussion
in Order
Posted · Edited by zilberfrid
The issue with sword &board, is that they can't all deal damage, this is something the militia can do. You could go spearmen (you have them) and have three rows of staggered guard deal damage and achieve a similar result, but then you're still not using every body on the field to deal damage if, for instance, they are counter attacking a unit in your great company.
If you're not into changing them, just run them as spearmen, and they will do fine, at least for friendly games.
One thing to note is that you're not buffing one of the units, you're buffing all of them with "Hold the line" you can't move or charge (but can counter charge and protect your great company), and you're adding one to wounds, and one to to hit. This means 2 to hit (because you normally can't go lower) for your guard, and for your greatswords, and your crossbowmen. Your crossbowmen have rend on 5+, shoot twice and wound on 3+, your greatswords on 2+ and your guards on 3+
If everyone manages to attack:
61 attacks from the Greatswords, 51 hits, 42 wounds with -1 rend
60 attacks from the Crossbowmen, 50 hits, 33 wounds, half with -1 rend
41 attacks from your guard, 34 hits, 23 wounds
Your own dudes have save 3+ for greatswords, 4+ for guard (reroll one if they have a shield), 5+ for crossbowmen (because your general has Indomitable).
Your dudes can also reroll charges for defending the great company and get +1 bravery, because he has Flag of the Conquerers.
If you roll a 1 or 2, noone in the unit flees for battleshock. You roll battleshock with two dice, and choose the die you want.
The trouble is getting all the little dudes to attack, that is why I like militia better for ease of use, they also have double the damage output, because they can shoot and attack in their own turn.