EnixLHQ

Really digging the lore-flavoring of the Incarnates. I'd love to see some Shyish versions, or specifically Nighthaunt versions.

I see it going one of four ways -Spectral Summons is removed as an ability for the army. To gain that ability back you'd have to field Awlrach and it would either center on him only, or units he's near can go with him somewhere. I see this being his unique command ability. -Awlrach interacts with the Underworld. Either allowing units nearby to go back into the Underworlds after the start of a game, or if he's in vicinity of an enemy Underworlds no longer has the 9" rule for any units you drop out of it. I see this option being passive. -Or Awlrach has a faster movement, maybe Black Coach levels or a degrading movement profile. While he is at a certain movement score or above (if degrading, being a passive ability) or for a command point he makes all units around him also move at that movement score. -He buffs or enhances charging in some way, providing extra distance on a charge or another "roll X, Y happens" ability akin to Wave of Terror where maybe on an 8 or 9 you instantly make a charge up to 12" as though you rolled 12.

Thondia is a Battlepack. Battlepacks are a 40K thing that was brought over to AoS with 3.0 Battlepacks are self-contained. With the release of AoS 3.0 the Battlepacks were Contest of Generals and Pitched Battles 2021. And soon we will have Seasons of War: Thondia. Going forward, each season will likely start with "Seasons of War" and each balance release between the seasons will likely be called "Pitched Battles 20XX," though they have said they want to get away from that release model so we'll have to see if that holds. Maybe we'll have two "seasons" a year. The way it works is that a game or tournament will be able to select a Battlepack to work from. You will have three choices: Contest of Generals (sample pack) Pitched Battles 2021 (season of 2021) Seasons of War: Thondia (season of 2022, released 4/16) The goal is that if you go to a game that is using Thondia you can leave your Pitched Battles book at home. It'll be old and outdated, with everything that's needed to be carried over and reprinted in Thondia. However, some games or tournaments may want to use PB2021 instead of Thondia, in which case they are effectively setting a date in time that is a cutoff for any changes/updates/errata.

The rower might be a monster. /shrug If he is, I hope it's not an extremely utility one. It's likely Nagash will remain available to us as a warlord in the new tome, and between him and Mannfred we might not get a pure NH monster. I hope we do, though.

That was me. I said that. I then edited that post when I realized the sheer negativity being generated here and don't want to be attached to any sort of bandwagoning associated with it.

No it didn't. It was a correction already afforded to other god-tier units. Nighthaunt relying on Nagash overnight isn't an indication that GW wants power units, it's a symptom of the current NH rules suffering. I mean, it couldn't be more indicative of the years long problem we've had. This isn't hopium. It's the benefit of the doubt. The fact that it can't be seen that way speaks loads about how negative people are taking things. Way too far. Swing the pendulum back to the middle. This entire post can be defeated with a couple more google searches and a browse through Better Coast Parings, with the exception of you somehow thinking a single box set was going to change NH before the book release. At this point people be wanting to be mad, and ain't no one going to tell them otherwise.

I don't think it's fair to say that a design philosophy you don't agree with is a design failure. The books released in 3.0 so far have been very internally-balanced, and competitive against each other. The designers have said, on record, that the aim of 3.0 and its battletomes is to streamline the game and make every army feel unique. Reducing the power of individual warscrolls accomplishes both of that. With reduced rules on the card you will refer to the units less and the allegiance abilities more to know what your options are during a game. Units will still have individual flavor and will fill optional roles in your army instead of being a "must pick" in every list. Tools in the toolbox, not oops all nailguns and hammers. Having the power in allegiance abilities both enhances the flavor of each army (I like X army because it does X thing), but also means that subfactions are better enabled to change game play options. Because, face it, between Emerald Host and Reikenor's Condemned you were still trying to shove as many Bladegheists as possible. Now, we'll likely choose a subfaction based on the goals you want to accomplish. Allying in units will be less of a thing. Again, by design. They don't want a super-unit to appear in every list. They created a whole new mechanic, mercenaries, to keep some options available, but to also keep a cap on runaway synergies. The designs GW have come up with for 3.0 is a departure and that's scary and new, but the net result has been leaps and bounds better. Give them a chance.

I mean, you can actually look up their financial report. There's no need to guess at their business practices or plans for the future, or how things look since 3.0 dropped. Or even since they got their current leadership. It's all there. I won't spoil it for you all, it's actually worth the read and I really suggest people do a bit more data-driven research instead of gut reactions. I get the feelings. I get the people giving each other likes for all the nay-saying, negative comments, and poor outlooks. The influx of new accounts seemingly here to just ****** on the faction. I mean, we're Nighthaunt, we were already doing that, didn't need the extra help. But, my brothers (and sisters, and everything in between) in Nagash, GW isn't in the market for releasing subpar work. That's not a business model. The TL;DR: of the reports is basically that when the game system does well, people will buy things to play in that system. And when tomes/codexes do well, people will buy more than just the models of that faction. And when the fantasy itself does well, people will buy into the ecosystem even more, branching outside of the rules and models and heading into licensed media like novels, animations, and video games. For a faction that already exists, don't expect GW to release a battletome for us that blows everything out of the water. Instead, just hope that they release a perfectly viable book with perfectly viable options that can stand up in any perfectly normal tournament.

Not just yours. Sort of the theme to the thread, really.

That's...not true. NH were a 5/0 army at least twice when they were released, and often 4/1. It's truer to say that whenever there's a new meta NH wins big for the first tournament or so, and then sharply fall off when the meta stabilizes.

What a mixed bag. Really cool about the Banshees, though. That was a needed buff. Let's see what the book does to balance these out against the other 3.0s.

Quoted for truth.

I'll always cite how in the lore Nighthaunt, or at least when Olynder is there, is so terrifying to the enemy that even stalwart Stormcast have their hearts seize in their chests, and lesser men age and die, all by mere exposure to the gloom of the haunt. So what if one of the "terror points" abilities was just mortal wounds at range? Big cost, big boom. Or by investing an amount of points you could impose a battlefield-wide rule. Kind of like Deepkin's tides, but more like a rolling fog on the battlefield. /dreaming

We could pretty easily get around the Bravery issue if we used a different mechanic instead. Like instead of Depravity points we gained "terror" points that we could then spend on various effects that are themed around fear. Not OBR's discipline points, but a separate point-buy system based on our in-game actions. And we use them to buy otherwise Bravery-based results. Force your opponent to roll as though they lost 5 models in combat that turn, even if they only lost 1, for X points. For a few more points, they roll battleshock even if they lost no models.

What I'm about to say is complete hearsay because for the life of me I can't find the source, but I remember coming across an article back somewhere in the 2.0 days after the release of Legion of Grief that kind of addressed why Nighthaunt has had their odd relationship with balancing. The bulk of the article was about the competitiveness of LoG when compared to vanilla NH, but then got to the topic of NH balance changes, and the interviewee (who I think was either a top tournament player or even a GW employee of some sort) said something along the lines of "Nighthaunt has such unique interplay with their keywords that if we change how they work we run the very real risk that the changes cascade into runaway powercreep." I'm paraphrasing from (admittedly flawed) memory. But it detailed a couple things. Like the 4+ save with Ethereal. They gave the example of what would happen if all 4+ became 3+, which they likened to turning Nighthaunt into an unkillable army on that alone. Or if Ethereal got changed to allow beneficial modifiers every army with access to Ethereal (and we still had Ethereal Amulet as a universal artifact) would never choose anything else. It'd break Rend as a mechanic, single-handedly, since you could still shield up and cover up. But I remember the biggest takeaway I had about the article was how no one asked, and no one volunteered, why these rules can't be Nighthaunt-specific. Sure, you can't really change Ethereal, but what if Nighthaunt were no longer Ethereal and instead were Spectral or Mistform, or some other flavor text that did exactly what we wanted with the keyword? /shrug - Anyway, just wanted to braindump that. Maybe one of you out there remembers the article and can link it.

Yeah, that's a blow. Hopefully that's been moved to another hero or is accessed in another way.

Is this from the new box set?

So my buddy has been trying to build his channel for a bit now, and he's got some different kinds of Warhammer and non-WH content to watch. Recently, he finished painting up my Nagash. I'll be using this very same model in any of my lists that feature him. If you wouldn't mind, please head over and have a watch. It'd mean the world to him.

You had me until the last part. I think everyone is missing this point. There is another way to put it, and that's to remember that's there's more. We just don't know what, yet. Do the same thing with those Cities crossbowmen again. Let's say that scroll got revealed and all it showed was the attack profile and let's say, I don't know, Piper--their +1 to run and charge ability. You'd look at that and laugh, right? A ranged unit? With no rend? And an ability to get a +1 to running and charging? Oh, what is GW thinking? And then the book comes out. Oh, battleline. Oh, marksman. Oh, stand-and-shoot. Oh, the free general's CA giving them +1/+1! And then the Celestial Hurricanum! Suddenly, it all looks different. Dunno, guys, I would rather just go through my days with a hopeful smile than a dour frown, wouldn't you?

Sure. Except no one's doing that. How could you? You know 1/3 of one warscroll, half of another, and 0% of the new battletome. What exactly is the "how things are" here?

Okay, so, look at that a bit closer. The Skyhawk Lantern ability fully relies on the High Sentinel to work. He can't see the target, and he has to be in range to use it. If the rest of his unit is out of range, or he's out of range while they are in range, he can't use the ability or it becomes hamstringed. Or, similarly, if the High Sentinel can see the unit in question, no go on the ability. This means that in order to use this you have to keep the unit back. I don't have their book, so I can't tell you what the rest of the unit's weapon's profiles are. But, I can tell you that Lunineth is a 3/2 army. But you are. And almost everyone else is. Look, it's hard to stay positive. I know that. We have a bad history as an army and the way GW has treated us. I've written novels to GW on that fact (and even gotten some replies). But I much rather look at the reveals and the book coming out as GW finally recognizing what they've done to us as a faction and closing the gap. And we have to trust that's exactly what they are doing, otherwise what is the point?

Partial cover, yes. Full cover, no. You can have 2+/2+/-4/6, reroll everything, and still wouldn't be able to damage that unit 3" away behind a solid wall or Prismatic Palisade. Except for the Soulhunters who can. The key part of their ability is that line of sight is irrelevant to them. Set up your terrain, spells, and larger units like the Black Coach to induce full cover and gain the ability to target your intended target while keeping these guys completely shielded from counters. If the enemy's eyes can't see even a single part of this unit, there's no answer to them. This is why it's a 12" range. This would be supremely broken at 24". You could set this unit down behind a garrison wall or some random terrain half a board away and never risk them getting counter attacked by ranged weapons or spells. Gotta at least bring them in closer for the chance of being juked, backstabbed, or rushed. And with the one ability being revealed so far, we still know they can get the +1 to hit from a KoS and RR1s from a Spirit Torment. The new book might make the melee only buffs we have more universal or adaptable, and whatever else is on their warscroll might shore up anything else lacking in the guys. Heavily hinted to be Kurdoss' bodyguards, they may attack in tandem, or they can bring him along or vice versa, or he buffs them in an unique way. For all we know, since they "always kill his targets first" it could be that when paired together you effectively use his attack profile to initiate combat and whenever he hits they get a free shot. Of if he does damage, their damage becomes mortal wounds. Who knows? So unless they completely take away our ability to deploy where we want to by removing From the Underworlds, these guys actually stand to be effective assassins. Olynder has long been called out as being the weakest of the Mortarchs and by a mile. GW attempted to address this a few times indirectly, via Emerald Host as a battalion, then as a subfaction, and then introducing the Sorrowmourn Choir as a battalion before they nixed those from matched play. I think it's likely to see that return. In lore Olynder has total control over her spirits and was chosen to be a Mortarch specifically because she had the ability to corral the otherwise wild and heedless dead. The other Mortarchs had to use magic to compel service, and only Nagash himself could do it passively, but then Olynder was doing it the whole time via her grief. So our new book might either bring back Sorrowmourn as a subfaction with all the bells and whistles that would bring, retool Emerald Host to truly be about the fallen knights of Dolorum and to specifically follow a Knight of Shrouds, and/or make Oylnder count as general whenever she is included and maybe evoke bodyguards with any of a select kinds of units. Or, she might finally get her glow up and be on par with the other Mortarchs. If they don't buff her wounds or damage mitigation, they may make her damage output compensate for it. Or finally give her a grief mechanic.

It'd be cool that as a hero and a unit that can be removed during play, that he allowed units to go back into the Underworlds and then redeploy closer than the 9" standard. I'd love to be able to bring in several units into reasonable charge range at the risk of losing the hero that enabled it.