WathLab

New (and probably last) update today !

I wanted to provoke some discussions so I tried to summarize all this : what you said, what I've been adding, what i read here & there since then, etc. With Grimnir's Blessing, let's make a Grand Poll !

Yes, that may be true ! I always have much more push / move ploys than any of opponents - the fact they have to deal with so many other threats make them forgot a bit about them... Hence maybe my Unlikely-Chosen-Axes-Ending-Very-Soon ongoing record of 9 victories in a row... I fear this will not happen again soon. To go back to that balance question, I thought of another (weird) proposal yesterday : As we all know, Mad Maegrim being mad... (...) It might seem logical that this crazy fellow begins games being already inspired... This is not a huge shift, but it would be nice and quite significant : 4 wounds, 3 move and some quite reliable low damage attack. I know, I know, it's completely contradictory to the spirit of the rules / the game... but it would be a very simple fixing solution !

Hi everyone ! The most doubtful test ever has been updated. See above...

Thanks so much ! Everything makes sens. (I was also positioning petitioners backward but was strugling with objective scoring.) I'll give a try as soon as possible. (The last upgrade you mention is Blessing of Hydragos : I was using it with Profiteers, but that was before... Time to shift to danse macabre !)

One would still need to spend the entire round 1 in order to inspire 2-3 members of the warband (and maybe even 4 with proper ploys), but at least it would succeed. THAT would be awesome. (And maybe even too strong...) I can't imagine what my current CA record would be... 😮 ! And I think the card you propose would be a very nice adding : one chance out of four (first hand) of not being disrupted on round 1 seems both significant and balanced ! That would also help flex builds, making easier to score objectives like supremacy, hold-objectives X, etc.

Skellies being my third choice after dwarves and skavens, I would love to read more about this ! I've never been able to build a real effective deck with them... Does it implies using keys (which I don't like so much...) ? Or is it something else ?

Wish we get another Skaven warband ! And would definitely love : Nurgle Elves (dark elves corsairs...) Free people (in a way that would remind Mordheim's Witch Hunters or WFB Sigmar's Priests...) Off course any halfling kind of warband And rules for mixed teams !

An yes, with such a wording, Resless Dead would be amazing ! For sure, faction-specific cards should only be used for their own original warband members... Which would would make them be a bit weaker (like restricted upgrades), but would also be good for balance...

To Chosen Axes players all around the Mirrored City : Which additional (faction-specific) cards would you like to see / do you think would improve the odds for us ? Some kind of specific Inspiration Strikes ? New movement ploys ? Objectives that would be more compatible with aggro-flex strategy ? Or a reaction ploy that would outpass defensive ploys / upgrades like Last Chance / Soul Trap on a dice roll ? 😮

I completely agree with you on this - which is why I think the test is relevant despite being doubtful & inaccurate - it shows that some warband have everything : strong characterstics, better faction-specific cards, and off course easy inspiration conditions...

Thanks for your reply ! Off course it's not reasonable, but so tempting...

Everything's in the title*... Feedback or house rules welcome ! (*One thought I had after doing the following test : how about mixing things a bit ?)

It seems they did not completely vanish... Chosen Axes ended 4th at St Petersburg GT...

As far as my beloved Chosen Axes don't vanish in the Mirrored City... And I would like to see faction-specific cards only tournaments !

Image again.

FACTION-SPECIFIC CARDS - see above

INSPIRATION CONDITIONS - see above As a way to keep this good thing going, I suggest to finally have a quick look at...

(EDIT & UPDATE June 16, 2019) As some of you might remember, some time ago I did a little maths, looking for Warband Tiers... In fact, I do not really know what took me when I embarked on this doubtful adventure. Here are the updated results of all this mess... Notice to the reader : of course the code has not been broken, and my analysis IS NOT an evaluation of the meta, or a real top-tier evaluation, which both would be far more complex and would have to consider billion of other things : synergy with universal cards, factions' playstyles, players' strategies, playing trends, current match-ups analysis, known and unknown combos, local sub-metas, and so on... Overall, with such an issue, I think that relying on top players' statement is much much wiser... This whole thing I tried is only a modest sub-mathematical analyisis, which while being so simple surprised me by matching some of statements many players make these days. The first part was made for private purpose at the beginning, but then I thought it could be interesting to have some constructive feedback about it. (And again, by the way... Being a Fyreslayer, and since English is not my native tongue... please forgive me for my grammatical and spelling errors in this disputable wall of text !) TEST n°1 / A WAY OF ANALYSING FIGHTER'S CARDS Note : I have to admit this test does not fully convince me but the overall vision seems interesting and somehow surprisingly accurate. Here's the method : STEP A For each warband, add : - All cards characteritic numbers : Move, Defense, Wounds, Attack Dice, Damage, Level of Magic, - All cards specials : Actions, Reactions, Skills (+1 for each), Notes : - Only count 'best' Attack, but +1 bonus for each additionnal Attack printed, - Attack dice score correction : total Furry x 0,85, - Bonus for all ranged Attacks (+1 per warrior and per attack), and for 2-damage ranged Attacks (additional + 1 per warrior and per attack), - Because of current abundance of Cleave, Shield Defense and Dodge Defense count the same, - Bonus for all additional members beyond the fourth (+1 per warrior), and for additionnal members beyond the sixth (additional +1 per warrior), - For special actions, also include characters who are concerned (ex : Varclav's is + 1 action + 5 chainrasps = + 6), - And of course : because of Mollog's so special special rules :+25% overall buff to him, regarding his characteristics & special skills. STEP B Simply divide the total by the number of warband members... Do it for Uninspired (U) and Inspired (I) sides of all warbands' cards. STEP C Compare all U / I scores. RESULTS SHADESPIRE Average Uninspired / Inspired Score.....12,5/14,75 Garrek's Reaver..........................................................12/14 Steelheart's Champions...........................................13/16 Sepulchral Guard................................................12,5/14,5 Ironskull's Boyz..........................................................11/13 Chosen Axes................................................................11/14 Spiteclaw's Swarm..................................................13/14,5 Farstriders....................................................................14/16 Magore's Fiends.........................................................14/16 3 Best Scores : Magore's Fiends, Farstriders, Steelheart's Champions 3 Worst Scores : Ironskull's Boyz, Chosen Axes NIGHTVAULT Average Uninspired / Inspired Score.....13,5/15,25 Stormsire Cursebreakers.................................15,5/17,5 Thorns of the Briar Queen..............................13,5/15,5 Eyes of the Nine..........................................................13/14 Zarbag's Gitz.................................................................13/15 Mollog's Mob............................................................13,5/16 Godsworn Hunt...................................................12,5/14,5 Ylthari's Guardians....................................................15/16 Thundrik's Profiteers.............................................13/15,5 3 Best scores : Stormsire Cursebreakers, Ylthari's Guardian, Mollog's Mob 2 Worst scores : Godsworn Hunt, Eyes of the Nine FINAL RANKINGS ACCORDING TO TEST n°1 01 Stormsire Cursebreakers........................15,5/17,5 02 Ylthari's Guardians...........................................15/16 03 Magore's Fiends.................................................14/16 04 Farstriders............................................................14/16 05 Mollog's Mob...................................................13,5/16 06 Thorns of the Briar Queen......................13,5/15,5 07 Steelheart's Champions..................................13/16 08 Thundrik's Profiteers...................................13/15,5 09 Zarbag's Gitz.......................................................13/15 10 Spiteclaw's Swarm.........................................13/14,5 11 Eyes of the Nine.................................................13/14 12 Sepulchral Guard........................................12,5/14,5 13 Godsworn Hunt...........................................12,5/14,5 14 Garrek's Reaver.................................................12/14 15 Chosen Axes........................................................11/14 16 Ironskull's Boyz..................................................11/13 A FEW COMMENTS ABOUT TEST n°1 1.1 To begin, even if it has major defects, we must say this simple test seems to work suprisingly well. It seems to confirm many things we already know. See recent event results, recent tier-based articles, etc. Their rankings are quite similar to this one. 1.2 Of course there are exceptions. There are some warbands whose strenght seems not so well measured by this test : Zarbag's Gits for instance... But as always, extremes cases (such as weird numbers) are the most difficult to seize... Also applies for Farstriders - are their real results deceptive because they struggle a bit against a certain Throggoth ? 1.3 Also, Ylthari's guardians' case is intriguing... Are the test results biased because the warband is so balanced and so versatile ? Or is there a new dreadfull warband in town ? 1.4 Overall, from this peculiar point of view, Nightvault warbands seem better. Uninspired AND Inspired sides. Average difference of 1 point between Shadespire and Nightvault Uninspired characters seems quite big. 1.5 Stormsire is the best ! Fear woodspririt newcomers ?! AND sign this petition : *For Less Gifted Warbands : We Want Balancing Cards !* TEST n°2 / A WAY OF ANALYSING INSPIRATION CONDITIONS Note : As before, the test does not fully convince me but it's a way among others to objetctify things. For each warband, I suggest to count : - If inspiration only depends on player (+2), partly depends on player (+1), - If inspiration is not disruptable (+2), disruptable but not easily (+1), - If inspiration does not highly rely on randomness – like unlikely dice rolls or card draw (+1), - If inspiration doesn't have a cost – like card-action, damage, suboptimal strategy, etc. (+1), - If inspiration has huge cost - like an entire Round 1 – or comes with high risk (-1), - If inspiration can usually be reached early - like before end of Round 1 (+1), - If inspiration concerns several warriors at the same time (+1), - Bonuses because of Inspiration Strikes and of Regal Vision for one-fighter dependant warbands (+1) and of course for Mollog's (another +1), and also for three-members-warbands (+1), - Bonus for inspiration faction specific cards – which at that time only means Magore with Furious Inspiration and Godsworn with Spoils of Battle & Goulish Pact (+1), SHADESPIRE Average Score.................... 4,5 Garrek's Reaver.................................................4 Steelheart's Champions..................................4 Sepulchral Guard...............................................4 Ironskull's Boyz..................................................4 Chosen Axes........................................................3 Spiteclaw's Swarm.............................................7 Farstriders............................................................4 Magore's Fiends..................................................6 2 Best Scores : Magore's Fiends, Spiteclaw's Swarm Worst Score : Chosen Axes NIGHTVAULT Average Score..................5,25 Stormsire Cursebreakers..................................7 Thorns of the Briar Queen................................5 Eyes of the Nine.....................................................5 Zarbag's Gitz...........................................................6 Mollog's Mob..........................................................6 Godsworn Hunt.....................................................5 Ylthari's Guardians...............................................5 Thundrik's Profiteers...........................................6 3 Best scores : Stormsire Cursebreakers, Mollog's Mob, Godsworn Hunt, Zarbag's Gitz, Thundrik's Profiteers FINAL RANKINGS ACCORDING TO TEST n°2 01 Spiteclaw's Swarm..........................................7 01 Stormsire Cursebreakers.............................7 03 Magore's Fiends...............................................6 03 Mollog's Mob....................................................6 03 Zarbag's Gitz.....................................................6 03 Thundrik's Profiteers.....................................6 07 Ylthari's Guardians.........................................5 07 Thorns of the Briar Queen...........................5 07 Godsworn Hunt...............................................5 07 Eyes of the Nine................................................5 11 Farstriders..........................................................4 11 Garrek's Reaver................................................4 11 Sepulchral Guard..............................................4 11 Steelheart's Champions.................................4 11 Ironskull's Boyz..................................................4 16 Chosen Axes........................................................3 A FEW COMMENTS ABOUT TEST n°2 2.1 Again, from this peculiar point of view, Nightvault warbands seem a bit better. Average difference of 1 point between Shadespire and Nightvault Uninspired characters again could be significant. 2.2 And again, Chosen Axes....... TEST n°3 / A WAY OF ANALYSING FACTION-SPECIFIC CARDS Note : This one is a trickier, as it depends on so many things and is very hard to measure. Many people agree Stormsire or Thorns have some of the best faction-specific cards, so do dwarves, etc. but finding a way to make it appear trough simple maths seems nearly impossible ! Here, to begin, I'd simply suggest to simply have a look at cards' popularity... The first two tests (A,B) will be used as guidelines... A / ON UNDERWORLDS-DECKERS CARD LIBRARY Just counting : - How many faction-specific cards are used by more than 75 % of a given warband's decks, Note : Of course, for both Ylthari's Guardians and Thundrik's Profiteers warbands, we need more time... 01 Chosen Axes.........................................................9 02 Ylthari's Guardians............................................8 03 Stormsire Cursebreakers................................6 04 Magore's Fiends..................................................5 04 Thorns of the Briar Queen..............................5 06 Thundrik's Profiteers........................................4 07 Steelheart's Champions...................................3 07 Sepulchral Guard................................................3 09 Zarbag's Gitz.........................................................2 09 Spiteclaw's Swarm..............................................2 09 Mollog's Mob........................................................2 09 Eyes of the Nine...................................................2 09 Garrek's Reaver....................................................2 14 Godsworn Hunt....................................................1 14 Ironskull's Boyz.....................................................1 16 Farstriders...............................................................0 B / ON UNDERWORLDSDB TOURNAMENT DECKS LIBRARY Just counting : - How many faction-specific cards used in Tournament decks (average*), *Note : This one is so puzzling, because you have to mitigate the effects of cards pool increasing.... which is of course impossible. Here I'm not couting early Season 1 decks – at times when card pools were way too small. So I'm beginnig the test around March, 2018 and ending it around May, 2019. 01 Chosen Axes............................................................9 02 Garrek's Reaver......................................................8 03 Thorns of the Briar Queen.................................8 04 Ylthari's Guardians................................................8 05 Thundrik's Profiteers............................................8 06 Steelheart's Champions......................................7 07 Sepulchral Guard....................................................7 08 Stormsire Cursebreakers....................................6 09 Farstriders.................................................................6 10 Magore's Fiends.......................................................6 11 Ironskull's Boyz........................................................6 12 Spiteclaw's Swarm..................................................5 13 Eyes of the Nine.......................................................4 14 Mollog's Mob............................................................4 15 Zarbag's Gitz.............................................................3 -- Godsworn Hunt...........................................................- C / CONSIDERING FACTION-SPECIFIC CARDS THEMSELVES Here I'mcounting many things : FOR ALL - How many faction-specific cards give access to restricted list effects – like Activated Runes, Raptor's Strike (+4 per card), - How many faction-specific cards give access to restricted list effects, but with less efficiency or with some restrictions – like Unkillable or Grimnir's Blessing (+2 per card), - How many faction-specific cards give access to duplicate effects from universal cards (+0,5 per card), with bonus for strictly better versions of universal cards – like Oath of Conquest (additional +0,5 per card), FOR OBJECTIVES - How many score-this-immediately objectives (+0,5 per card), with a bonus for easy / reliable ones (additional +1 per card), - How many other easy / reliable objectives (+ 1 for each glory point), FOR GAMBITS - How many faction-specific gambits provide strong unique effects – like There are always more (+2 per card), - Bonuses for faction-specific gambits with the following effects : put a guard token, remake failed attacks (+1 per card), FOR UPGRADES - How many faction-specific upgrades are not character-restricted at all (+1 per upgrade), - Bonus for faction-specific gambits with the following effects : innate spell value (+1 per card), SORT OF IN REAL LIFE CORRECTION - Bonus of +1 for being top-tier in both considered Deck Libraries (see A,B). Faction-specific cards' popularity must mean something. At least a bit. RESULTS SHADESPIRE Average Score........................13 Garrek's Reaver.................................................10,5 Steelheart's Champions....................................11 Sepulchral Guard.................................................10 Ironskull's Boyz.................................................10,5 Chosen Axes...........................................................19 Spiteclaw's Swarm............................................11,5 Farstriders..............................................................17 Magore's Fiends................................................13,5 2 Best Scores : Chosen Axes, Farstriders Worst Score : Sepulchral Guard, Steelheart's Champions NIGHTVAULT Average Score....................14,5 Stormsire Cursebreakers.................................19 Thorns of the Briar Queen...............................18 Eyes of the Nine..................................................9,5 Zarbag's Gitz.........................................................13 Mollog's Mob.....................................................13,5 Godsworn Hunt................................................16,5 Ylthari's Guardians..........................................13,5 Thundrik's Profiteers......................................14,5 3 Best scores : Stormsire Cursebreakers, Thorns of the Briar Queen, Godsworn Hunt Worst Score : Eyes of the Nine FINAL RANKINGS ACCORDING TO TEST n°3 01 Stormsire Cursebreakers................................19 02 Chosen Axes.........................................................19 03 Thorns of the Briar Queen..............................18 04 Farstriders.............................................................17 05 Godsworn Hunt................................................16,5 06 Thundrik's Profiteers......................................15,5 07 Ylthari's Guardians..........................................13,5 08 Magore's Fiends................................................13,5 09 Mollog's Mob......................................................13,5 10 Zarbag's Gitz..........................................................13 11 Spiteclaw's Swarm............................................11,5 12 Steelheart's Champions.....................................11 13 Garrek's Reaver.................................................10,5 14 Ironskull's Boyz..................................................10,5 15 Sepulchral Guard..................................................10 16 Eyes of the Nine....................................................9,5 A FEW COMMENTS ABOUT TEST n°3 2.1 Again, again, why are Nightvault warbands' average score better than Shadespire's ? 2.2 Finally ! Chosen Axes did it : they seem to be top tier somewhere. But still so cruel for Ironskull's Boyz... BONUS TEST ! / A WAY OF MAKING A KIND OF CONCLUSION Note : Here I propose something very simple to summarize all this mess = for each warband, add its rankings of each of the 3 tests above. The lower final score, the better... FINAL RANKINGS ACCORDING TO THE 3 TESTS 01 Stormsire Cursebreakers........................3 02 Magore's Fiends........................................14 03 Thorns of the Briar Queen....................16 04 Ylthari's Guardians..................................16 05 Mollog's Mob..............................................16 06 Thundrik's Profiteers..............................17 07 Farstriders...................................................19 08 Zarbag's Gitz..............................................22 09 Spiteclaw's Swarm...................................22 10 Godsworn Hunt........................................24 11 Steelheart's Champions..........................30 12 Eyes of the Nine..........................................33 13 Chosen Axes.................................................33 14 Garrek's Reaver..........................................38 15 Sepulchral Guard.......................................39 16 Ironskull's Boyz...........................................40 A FEW COMMENTS ABOUT FINAL TEST Let's compare the test results to some various other things an draw some simple conclusions if we can ! 4.1 Recent tournaments on Underworldsdb : CB / MF / MM / TBQ are dominant, YG are emerging. The final test states almost the exact same thing. https://www.underworldsdb.com/decks.php 4.2 Katophrane Relic end of season tier ranking article : CB then MM / MF / TBQ / ZG. Again the final test seems to be matching quite well. And following tiers are almost as accurate. https://katophranerelic.com/2019/04/30/end-of-season-tier-ranking/ 4.3 Wigglehammer Even Data, which is a huge and very interesting work, although it is only a part of the whole story : MM / CB / ZG / GH / TBQ. Here the test seems a bit less efficient, with Zarbag's Gitz and Godsworn's Hunt a bit higher. Tournament win rates are not the meta and are not perfect reflects of tier-rankings either, - but indeed, Zarbag Gitz are probably slightly underated by the test, which is something I've been keeping repeating since the very beginning. This may also be true for some other warbands : Thundrik's Profiteers, Garrek's Reavers, Sepulchral Guard, also slightly underated by the test. https://wigglehammer.wordpress.com/2019/05/14/q3-event-data-final-results/) 4.4 SteelCityUnderworlds Snapshot of the meta of February, 2019 : here what's interesting is that the test seems to highlight one the main conclusion of the article – Nightvault warband just seem better than Shadespire's. In the tests, this was confirmed on every single level of analysis : fighters'cards, inspiration conditions and faction-specific cards. https://steelcityunderworlds.com/2019/02/04/a-snapshot-of-the-meta-post-warhammer-world-grand-clash/ Here we are. I'm done. Nothing much to say anymore ! Oh yes. Khazâd ! Khazâd !