CeleFAZE
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Posts posted by CeleFAZE
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7 minutes ago, PJetski said:
Organized my initial thoughts into a tier list. Tiers are ordered as units appear in the pitched battle profiles
S - Easily fit into many lists or defines an entire list, high impact niche
- Celestar Ballistae
- Judicators (Bow)
- Vindictors
- Gardus Steel Soul
- Knight-Draconis
- Knight-Incantor
- Lord-Imperatant
- Krondys
- Lord-Celestant (Stardrake)
- Annihilators (Grandhammers)
- Protectors
- Stormdrake Guard
- Stormstrike Chariot
- Vanguard-Raptors (Longstrike)
A - Strong units with that you can form a list around
- Liberators
- Lord-Arcanum (Dracoline)
- Lord-Arcanum (Tauralon)
- Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos
- Lord-Ordinator
- Annihilators
- Dracothian Guard Fulminators
- Evocators (Dracolines)
- Retributors
B - A somewhat specific but still useful niche
- Judicators (Crossbow)
- Aventis Firestrike
- Celestant Prime
- Lord-Castellant
- Yndrasta
- Dracothian Guard Concussors
- Dracothian Guard Tempestors
- Evocators
- Vanguard-Raptors (Hurricane)
- Vigilors
- Celestian Vortex
C - Situationally useful niche, could be overcosted
- Astreia Solbright
- Stormsire's Cursebreakers
- Knight-Vexillor (Meteoric)
- Lord-Arcanum
- Vandus Hammerhand
- Karazai
- Aetherwings
- Dracothian Guard Desolators
- Praetors
- Vanguard-Hunters
D - Significantly flawed, bad niche, maybe useful one day with a points drop
- Sequitors
- Knight-Arcanum
- Knight-Judicator
- Knight-Relictor
- Knight-Vexillor (Apotheosis)
- Knight-Vexillor (Stormbringer)
- Lord-Arcanum (Gryph-charger)
- Lord-Celestant (Dracoth)
- Lord-Exorcist
- Lord-Veritant
- Drakesworn Templar
- Castigators
- Decimators
- Prosecutors (Hammers)
- Prosecutors (Javelins)
- Vanguard-Palladors
- Dais Arcanum
- Everblaze Comet
F - Don't use these
- Vanquishers
- Gavriel Sureheart
- Knight-Azyros
- Knight-Heraldor
- Knight-Questor
- Knight-Venator
- Knight-Zephyros
- Lord-Aquilor
- Lord-Celestant
- Neave Blacktalon
- Gryph-Hounds
- Steelheart's Champions
- The Farstriders
Totals
- S Tier - 15 (20%)
- A Tier - 9 (12%)
- B Tier - 11 (15%)
- C Tier - 9 (12%)
- D Tier - 18 (24%)
- F Tier - 13 (17%)
Big improvement over our last book but there are way too make units that they nerfed into oblivion like Heraldor and Azyros. Seems like an obvious push to buy new models...
Im working on a podcast breaking down each of these rankings. After that I'll start working on something for our allegiance abilities and stormhosts
I'm curious, what is it about the dracoline evocators that cause their rating to be as high as they are in your assessment? I'd like to focus on a list centered around them, but they still seem somewhat subpar. Is it the speed, high volume of attacks and mortal wound potential?
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So, I was really looking to move in a Sacrosanct-oriented direction from Dominion, but I'm completely new to list-building for Stormcast. Out of what we have now, is there a good way to utilize a mostly sancro list, or is it going to be kind of an uphill slog? I'm happy to use anything out of the Dominion box in addition, but I love the look of evocators of both varieties, though I just don't see a lot to really make them work on a surface level. Also, would running 2 MSU units of sequitors alongside a unit of 10 vindictors be viable, or am I really just better off running more vindictors?
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Any leaks for the sacrosanct chamber?
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35 minutes ago, The Red King said:
I assume certain members of the forums will come out now against this decision and admit they were wrong about them not paywalling this stuff.
*I want to be @'d if they're not there just because it's the NZ pre orders and they come up with the full pre orders, both because I'd be happy to be wrong and also so I wont be a hypocrite for not eating crow.
That's both unsurprising and super annoying for competitive play. Having the scrolls easily at hand was super helpful during tournaments. It's irritating that it'll be paywalled, but I'm hoping the new app will have the general bank of warscrolls the old one did and doesn't require buying the individual tome to unlock them. I don't expect it though.
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17 minutes ago, Ar-Pharazôn said:
Why did it not list Beasts of Chaos along with every other Chaos army?
Makes me wonder if there's some teeth to the rumor of beasts getting souped into S2D.
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For Slaanesh our only real use for cogs was giving Synessa the 2nd cast she should've had from the start. As it stands it really hasn't changed for us, but it does reign in problem armies like Tzeentch where the additional spells were a huge force multiplier.
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14 hours ago, Blair said:
Yeah just saw that, it's what I get for posting a question the day before FAQs drop
I'm a little gutted it's a bit of a nerd to that unit, I used to run 2-3 10 man units and use the as a charge deterrent. Now only 1 unit per turn will be effective and at -1 to hit
Oh well thems the breaks, still a unit I'll use in my aelf cities
I think it just changes how those units are utilized. Now you want to run a large reinforced unit that acts as bait for charges that allows for strategic counter-charges after the opponent is softened on the way in. Utilizing the hurricanum to offset the penalty also makes them operate similarly to how they did before. It's not perfect, but strategies always change with every new addition to the game.
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7 minutes ago, Belathor said:
Ok i dug into it more. You were on the right track. The official Most annoying model with save stacking
flamespyre phoenix in settlers gain with stone spirit armor.
3+ armor save 6+ generic priest ward save 4+ annointed, 5+ protection of teclis 5+ Salvation of Hysh 6+ Stone Spirit 6+ Luminark and some say he is still rolling to this day
And this is why I'll never run a Slaanesh list without Sigvald until this gets sorted.
Run it in tandem with a frostheart for the -1 to wound and you have a truly nigh unkillable model.
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11 hours ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:
I see those freeguild hunters and weep. Such great characterful models & would have been nice for CoS to have basic battleline unit not locked behind general selection..
then again it would have been nice to have priests and the war alter. But perhaps the crusade will bring them back
It is really odd that such an iconic unit of the warhammer mythos, the warrior priest, is missing from the official lineup. I suppose Stormcast are meant to effectively replace them on a thematic level in much the way fyreslayers have replaced slayers, but it still seems like a strange choice.
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57 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:
FAQ of legacy warscroll with matched play points.
Most importantly includes dwarf cannons
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/u8HUNVKydnPpvowA.pdf
There are some odd oversights in there, particularly some wizards not having a designated number of spells they can cast or unbind.
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Both of these individuals are exemplars of the community and superb choices for the moderation team. Excellent decision.
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11 hours ago, Overread said:
Thing is you don't have to shout to make your voice heard; you just have to speak clearly.
Remember whilst a company is a faceless entity, its comprised of real people just doing their jobs. If you attack them for things they do, chances are they'll just ignore you. Think about yourself, would you listen too or respect a person shouting, screaming and insulting you for doing your job?
Probably not, even if they have a valid point.
Constructive feedback isn't about shouting, screaming or insulting. It's about saying that you don't like something. Explaining why you don't like it and perhaps offering alternative options. It's perhaps about bringing to light things that the company and individuals within, might have overlooked. Eg some have pointed out that the loss of digital media impacts those who have more limited vision. If you can gather together many people and deliver a clear message in a constructive and polite fashion you've FAR FAR more chance of getting an open reception to your idea. The company still might not agree or make changes, but they have a vastly greater chance of doing so (even if it might take weeks/months to make such changes happen).
Progress very seldom results from polite and well-behaved discourse.
Companies in particular react quickly to PR nightmares, and quiet disapproval generally doesn't give that impression.
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6 minutes ago, Chikout said:
I wasn't trying to defend them at all. It's clear that the process they have isn't working for whatever reason. The frustration from the community is palpable.
I just think that gw has a community who pick up on flaws within minutes of seeing the FAQs. It's a big mistake not to leverage that.
If they had a one week beta they could put out a faq, take feedback before they finalise things and avoid any glaring issues in the future.
There's downsides to that too. If the players are given an illusion of agency over the process GW will generate even more ill will if they stick to their guns with an unpopular ruling. Like with Slaanesh, where they basically condescended to the players by telling us that the points are there to offset summoning, when it's clear that we're still wildly overcosted; especially in the case of slaangors, a scroll they demonstrated they could've updated in the FAQ just like they did with plague monks in the past and horrors just recently.
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26 minutes ago, azdimy said:
Do you guys think the forgeworld keeper is now worth its points or summoning at 385pts or 12 depravity?
It can generate an additionnal d3 depravity when fighting heroes but does not have the keeper CA.
I think it may have a place?
I'd say when spending depravity a vanilla KoS is the better choice 100% of the time. The soulfeaster may have some corner-case uses in a list, but the lack of command ability really hurts it, and since the d3 depravity ability requires it to be in combat with a hero it's probably too situational to rely on.
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New FAQs are up. We only lost our ability to coalition in tzaangors. A shame they didn't give us a new warscroll for slaangors like they did for horrors.
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2 hours ago, LeonBox said:
They are definitely tough for an elite army like us to deal with. I feel like we should definitely have some cheap throwaway Hedonite cultists that could deal with stuff like this -- drugged-out dagger suicide cultists like the Blissbarbs, but lacking their bows and way cheaper. I don't want to have to ally in ungors for this kind of thing, but they might be necessary.
I agree that it's not great we don't have any native priest options (and, indeed, only one priest option across the whole of Chaos). Glutos would be the obvious choice but he's already very powerful.
I really would love to have a unit that represents the midpoint between blissbarb and myrmadesh, as I can't imagine they all become seekers in the interim. Some kind of speardancers or revellers with weapon/shield or dual wielding would be great on both a mechanical and a lore level.
Considering we've had two duel boxes already I don't have high hopes that we'll see another anytime soon, but I'd love to see a mounted mortal leader option introduced through something like that eventually. Possibly a dual kit with a priest or lord option on the classic snake steed.
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1 hour ago, LeonBox said:
Yes I think this is important to bear in mind -- a Keeper is not going toe to toe with most other monsters anymore, or even specialized hero characters. I charged a summoned Keeper into Yndraste (the Stormcast lady on the ruined stairs) last and put a paltry two wounds on her, even with 5 mortals from a claw (my opponent rolled well on his 4++). The Keeper then died outright from a combination of her unleash hell (5 wounds) and her spear attacks (my opponent rolled well on his attacks, and if you're noticing a pattern here then you're a sharp cookie). It made me pretty damn salty until I realised that she was a terrible target for the Keeper anyway, but it still does annoy me how ineffectual the Keeper is these days.
My all-mortal list in general didn't do amazingly. My opponent had, roughly:
2x3 drop-pod Captain America guys (Annihilators?)
2x5 spear battleline dudes
2x5 bodyguard dudes
Yndraste
Guy with bird-dog
Guy with big banner
Mask-wearing wizard girl from the Dominion box
Gotrek (sigh)
My brave boys and girls ready to rock:
I put all 42 of my Blissbarb shots on Gotrek turn 1 (my opponent forced me to go first, as we each had two drops and he won the deployment roll) and managed 2 wounds through all-out defence and his 3++. These were promptly healed back with heroic recovery, which really makes Gotrek all but unkillable.
Annihilators are pretty nasty and you need to keep vulnerable stuff well screened. My Blissbarbs were too far forward and ate a charge from both units (one on a re-rollable 7 and the other on a re-rollable 9).
I only got one round with the Slickblades. My opponent got Gotrek into them on a long charge (what are the odds?) after a CP re-roll and promptly wiped them out.
Blissbarb Seekers are decent, but very reliant on those sixes for mortal wounds. If I didn't get any they tended to do very little damage.
Twinsouls are not great against Stormcast with those high armour saves across the board. They ended up stuck fighting Annihilators, which with their native 2+ armour save are the worst thing for them to be fighting.
The Keeper, as mentioned, got summoned, charged, died. Very sour on them right now I have to say, but in retrospect I should have summoned a Daemonette blob.
Slaangors died to a triple charge without raising a claw. I failed a 9" charge (8" with Godseekers) with them and didn't want to waste a CP, and then they ate a triple charge from Yndraste, Lord with bird-dog and bodyguard dudes.
Overall thoughts: our lack of rend really, really hurt here because SCE have such high armour saves across the board. I was also severely punished for not taking our best answer to both Yndraste and Gotrek, Sigvald. I'm beginning to find it's almost never a good idea not to include Sigvald, he's just too good to pass up.
I think this is a great demonstration of how hyper-specialized we are, and how uphill it can be if we find our units paired against their least optimal matchups. I also found myself in this position during my last tournament, where I had very little high rend on the board and was facing 5-6 squads of deep-striking annihilators. While they're not the best at the moment, I think keepers may be one of our better choices against 2+ saves, though it's highly dependent on MW spikes. Exalted or seeker chariots may be a good matchup too, but will probably die more quickly on the return swing.
I agree that Yndrasta is probably one of our worst targets for a keeper, due to how severely hampered they are on the lowest bracket. Sigvald and Synessa are probably our best counters against her at this point, which is unfortunate as I dislike being tethered to special characters, but we don't really have the luxury of choice at the moment.
Something I'm considering as a way to punch through high armor is utilizing curse via a warshrine on the target and Blissbarbs to provide a high volume of attacks that don't have another 6 to-hit trigger. If we really need to assure destruction we can attempt to cast acquiescence of either variety to reroll 1's in addition. However I don't necessarily like how many points that takes, and how reliant on a 50-50 chance it is. It's a shame neither the shardspeaker nor Glutos have the priest keyword, despite having abilities that are pretty clearly prayers.
The other problem is that annihilators do the majority of their damage on the turn they land, especially with the hero that allows them to drop 7 away and the other hero that allows a significant bonus to their charge rolls to ensure they make their initial charges. It's a question I'm still puzzling out a good answer to. I've been advised to zone them out, but even with our speed that's a big ask, and we don't have cheap chaff that can easily get into position and be thrown away without losing a significant amount of points. I don't think this situation will improve with the new book, and I find it kinda irksome that we have to build around skew lists that are so oppressive.
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2 hours ago, Popisdead said:
What are you hoping for from the Bullgors? I had been wondering if Warherd (I ran it in AoS 1) was viable in any manner given access to upwards of -5 Rend but that's within BoC.
I was pleasantly surprised to see them included in an army.
Also I've been going back through the pages, not sure I went back far enough or maybe it was missed but on the Honest Wargamer someone went 5-0 with this list on the weekend. Don't quote me, I couldn't find the list myself so this was just what Rob said :
Godseekers
Sigvald
Synessa
Epitome (general)
22 Blissbarb archers
22 Blissbarb archers
2 x 5 Slickblade Seekers
2 x 1 Seeker Chariots
Then I'm pretty sure he said also regular Seekers. Having just run 30 Sisters of the Watch (granted.. mmmm perhaps better? hard to say) I can see the damage archers can do in this game, particularly garrisoned.
Did i miss you guys talk about this list already?
I like the idea of 22x blissbarb units. It feels like a good break-even point between efficiency with command abilities vs unweildiness of a large unit.
On that note, has anyone calculated the break-even point where it's better to remove your last homonculus as a casualty or another archer?
**EDIT**
I got bored and did the math. It's better to take the homonculus as a casualty if you're going down to 3 or fewer models in the unit. Generally if you've taken that many casualties the unit is going to be wiped out anyhow, but in case anyone was wondering 2 archers and a champion are statistically better than 1 archer, 1 homonculus, and 1 champion.
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6 hours ago, Enoby said:
Thanks for the write up
One thing to quickly comment on is the 2 squads of 10 twinsouls - I've tried it before and it's not bad, but they do struggle from being super expensive, quite squishy for their points, and hard countered by a 2+ save. They're fantastic in a unit of 10 as they normally have a perfect target, and then another few good ones. Two units of 10 often end up with one attacking, doing really well, and then the other being attacked and losing a lot of points.
That said, a single unit of 20 may be interesting... two lines of 10 for coherency's sake. Loads of points, but 24 average damage against a 3+ save when rerolling hits, and an utterly excessive 74 damage when against no save. If you want to go ham, give them +1 to hit and +1 to wound from the Shardspeaker and command ability for an amazing 36 damage against a 3+ save, and a totally unnecessary 107 average against no save. Even against a 2+ save they do a very respectable 18. In all honestly, at this point you've gone overkill, but if you want to punt an enemy unit into another realm, 20 twinsouls is the way to go.
Okay, now I really want to use a unit of 20 twinsouls
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Did you feel there was any particular unit/type of unit that you really struggled against? Was there any reason why, and do you think you could deal with them in another tournament?
You present a compelling argument, and I think I may instead go for one unit of 15, which also will give me some better opportunities to try and rally back when the unit gets diminished, or to try the lifeswarm to keep them topped off.
As for things I struggled against, vampire lords on zombie dragons featured in two of my opponents' lists, and were tough nuts to crack both times. Stormcast annihilator spam was also something that presented a major problem, though hopefully that gets toned down a bit with their new book, and beyond that I could've done more to try and zone out their ability to drop where they wanted. Gavriel Sureheart having a 2+ ignoring -2 rend and rerolling ones was a huge pain, and a good argument for more mortal wounding options in my list.
I have an opportunity to grab 3 more boxes of blissbarbs soon, so I think I may jump on that and utilize more foot archers, swapping the seekers for slickblades to give me more anti-armor punch. I also feel like acquiescence is a spell I need to make more use of, so I'll try playing around with using an epitome in my starting list to provide some desperately needed rerolls.
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Got back from my major, with some insights:
1. Twinsouls are every bit as good as the hype. They crashed into a unit of 3 mini-gargants and wiped them on the charge with rerolling hits and all-out-attack. They died over the next couple turns from the return swings from a mega, but lasted long enough to generate some depravity after they made their points back. I'm realistically considering a list with 2 squads of 10, staggering their rotating buffs and running alongside a lord of pain to provide a potential 100% uptime on their rerolls.
2. Seeker chariots in battleline are okay, but largely seem to get a couple mortal wounds in and die. They're still our cheapest battleline choice, but I would've probably found a unit of myrmadesh to have better resilience and more offensive capability in its place. I could see some interesting side uses for a unit of three to try and get some lucky rallies, but I think we have much better uses for our generally limited CP.
3. Synessa needs cogs or another 2-cast wizard around to really shine. With just an exalted bladebringer and Synessa without cogs, I found my magic easily shut down, or if out of unbind range unreliable at best with pavane. Her shooting however is great, and gave me the ability to cherrytap the last few wounds off of monsters in some key moments to give me extra VP's when it mattered.
4. Sigvald is pretty great, but godseekers may not be the best place for him. Every game it was a question of whether or not he would be able to get into range early enough to do what he's supposed to. Probably best for him to live in lurid haze.
5. The Ghur command ability is amazing for keeping a single keeper in the fight. If not for it I probably would not have won my game against SoB.
6. Blissbarb seekers are really swingy, and probably benefit from running in a reinforced unit of 10 rather than the 2 5's I fielded, as they need to get the full benefit of AoA due to the really unreliable 4+ to hit.
7. The exalted bladebringer is a solid piece, but still dies fairly easily even with the amulet. I may instead relegate mine to the summoning bench to make room for something else in my starting list.
8. The fane being able to summon is a huge boon to us. Proper placement of it is a decisive element to winning games.
Overall I didn't do well (1-4), but I learned quite a bit. Unfortunately I only had the time for a single practice game with my list before the event, against an army (Nurgle daemons) that didn't come up in my pairings for the event itself. I'm going to be getting in more games soon, and hope to refine my list into something far more effective for the next one.
We are absolutely on the back foot compared to what other armies can do (I played against an annihilator spam list that was pretty oppressive), but we can still win games, and had I not made some critical mistakes in two games I may have been able to swing 3-2. I haven't lost hope that we can still keep up, but it's necessary to be incredibly precise to get the most out of every tool we have.
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Speaking of the twins, did anyone else notice that there's a picture of Synessa in the instructions wearing a sleeveless open robe that isn't in the kit? It looks pretty cool, and is shown like an alternate build, but the parts just aren't there to do it.
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I think my problem with Belakor is that I like to play to theme quite a bit, and he just kind of breaks that. I love that we have the option for that level of control, but I'd much rather we had an in-faction option for it. In addition there's always the possibility that he could get pointed out of the ally range, and then a fairly expensive model becomes a pretty display piece.
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2 hours ago, Enoby said:
I think both @Elazar The Glorified and @Jaskier raise good points - a lot of super competitive players will choose 'safe' competitive armies (as in tried and tested) to build and paint for tournaments, so the majority of Slaanesh players will likely be the ones just playing because they like the army. I think there's also a massive stigma against Slaanesh in competitive environments - as in, it seems to be tournament players (or at least loud voices on Twitter) saying "Slaanesh sucks" making competitive players even less likely to pick them up. But as mentioned, if we do keep getting poor win rates in 'real' tournaments we're likely to see a points drop which I would appreciate, especially on the KoS and Shalaxi. I do think HoS is 'meant' to be a competitive army in the eyes of the designers, compared to something like Gloomspite (which is more of a "for fun" army).
My biggest worry is still BoC - they've been at the bottom for years it seems, but there doesn't seem to be much of a plan to help them. At least with us, most nerfs were a reaction to 2019. With BoC, I don't know why they aren't helping them more
I think BoC are probably due for a new book fairly early in this edition cycle if I had to guess. They suffer largely from holdover themes from WHFB that don't competitively translate to AoS (low armor ambushing forces), and it seems like the developers weren't quite sure how to make that work with the current system. Low save monsters just don't operate well at all, and they are in desperate need of at minimum more "baked in" 4+ saves to keep up. I think 2-wound gors would also be a great change, letting them fill a similar niche to other anvil units.
As for Slaanesh, I think we're at the mercy of some unfortunate prejudices on the part of the rules team. I imagine someone got a -stern- talking to after the first book, and there's probably a lot of emotional baggage leftover from that experience throughout the design department. Likely there's also a disconnect between the mathematical theory of the army and how we function on the tabletop, and GW is holding fast to their guns on this without a willingness to entertain other thoughts on the matter. I'm curious to see how things move forward, and I'll continue to play Slaanesh at whatever large events I'm able to attend to hopefully contribute to whatever aggregate data is considered for re-pointing. I'm generally not a top-tables player, but I've done well in my last showing so we'll see how it plays out.-
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41 minutes ago, Panacea said:
What units should I get to have a decent flexible summoning pool for 1000pts games?
I haven't settled on a main list yet but I plan to focus on mortals with some combination of hellstriders, blissbarbs, twinsouls, and maybe Sigvald because I love the model.
I would probably focus on getting 30-60 daemonettes, 10 seekers, and a keeper of secrets as a starting summoning pool. The effectiveness of throwing massive amounts of bodies on objectives can't be understated (most games I win come down to summoning 30-strong units of daemonettes), and a pocket keeper when you need a monster or a double pile-in to support sigvald or a unit of twinsouls is incredibly useful. The seekers are there to grab further objectives, when you need to get to something outside of the range of your summoning and are in a position where you can wait a turn to do so.
Beyond that an epitome isn't a bad choice, as you can summon one in if you're up against an opponent that doesn't have oppressive magic control like seraphon or lumineth, so you can utilize overwhelming acquiescence to throw reroll-1's where you need them most. Also an exalted chariot is not a terrible choice either, but is similar to a keeper in what it brings to the table, so I'd say it's more of an effective optional choice rather than a must-take.
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One thing to quickly comment on is the 2 squads of 10 twinsouls - I've tried it before and it's not bad, but they do struggle from being super expensive, quite squishy for their points, and hard countered by a 2+ save. They're fantastic in a unit of 10 as they normally have a perfect target, and then another few good ones. Two units of 10 often end up with one attacking, doing really well, and then the other being attacked and losing a lot of points.
Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted
What do we currently see as the most efficient model to utilize our prayers through? It seems that while our priests themselves are rather underwhelming as far as their scrolls are concerned the battletome prayers look quite effective.