MKsmash
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Posts posted by MKsmash
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I've played Aos for a while now, and few things have remained constant. The first few years of it's existence barely count for much considering how much change GW had to do to get Aos working. However, as a Destruction player, I don't know of I've ever been at the top of the heap.
There was a brief period where stonehorns were a top tier thing of their own, being close to unkillable by halving all damage. But other than this brief, FAQ'ed out phase, destruction has never been the best, or even close really.
Ironjawz originally were a middle-tier army that eventually fell a long way before getting to Orruk Warclans now. They're our best choice, but still would struggle to be considered an A tier army. When they were released they were powerful, but quickly fell because of tzeentch, OBR, and lumineth. Bonesplitters had some tricks with Kunnin'Rukk before but now they just suck.
Beastclaw Raiders were a solid army for a while, but it took 4 YEARS to get a new book. Gutbusters didn't even get one until recently in Ogor Mawtribes. Speaking of which, Mawtribes is one of the worst battletomes I've ever seen. Terrible subtractions, completely unintuitive and bad scenery, and warscrolls that desperately needed love and got none, rendering them useless (*ahem* gorgers *ahem*).
Gits also had to wait a while to get a book, but when they did, they were rewarded with completely useless allegiance abilities and an army that required 180 stabbas to perform well, or force you to go with the randomness of the squigs. This could've been considered a "fun" army, but couldn't even get that.
Finally, Sons of Behemat. Coming in the wake of overpowered armies of Order, Death, and Chaos, they were to be my great hope for destruction, their chance to break into the high A-tier/S-tier class....but they didn't. While there hasnt been quite enough evidence yet, they simply don't have enough tricks in the bag to survive KO's shooting, OBR's durability, Tzeentch's magic, or Lumineth's.....uh..... everything.
Does anyone else feel Destruction is the neglected child of the Aos family?
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36 minutes ago, Voand said:
How does this look as a first draft big waaagh list to aim at building towards?
MBoMK
Warchanter x2
Wardokk
10 Ardboys x2
6 Gore-gruntas
30 Arrowboys
Ironfist
2000 points on the dot and I like that I can build up to it with not many purchases due to fully utilizing 2 start collecting boxes.
I'm just not sure if I'm missing anything obvious as far as flaws or ways to streamline.
That actually looks pretty strong - the only thing I would consider adding is a weirdnob for teleportation shenanigans. Units of 6 gruntas hit hard, especially with an ironfist and warchanter, big arrowboyz units punch pretty hard, and the krusha provides for a big dangerous beatstick.
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I think I've purchased at retail price from GW only a few times. I have always, and will always, keep ordering through local stores for 20% off. They have been around since before I was born, and aren't in danger of going under(as far as I know, of course)
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38 minutes ago, Jackroks981 said:
Are we looking at the same stat line?
I agree. The damage seems reliable, but very low.
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You can make custom warscrolls, unofficially. I've spent a lot of time here 😂
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2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:
Not sure what your normal opponents or local meta are as that surely is going to have a huge effect on the Maw Krusha's effectiveness, but I have not found them to be nigh-unkillable at all. "aside from mortal wounds" is a pretty big BUT in my experience, considering they have become more and more common and pervasive with each new book released. And unless you forego a free mighty destroyer for +1 armour a 3+ on its own without ethereal is just not as survivable as it feels like it is. Perhaps this is a Big Waagh vs Ironjawz difference in percieved worth, as with Big Waagh unless you have an Ironfist you pretty much HAVE to go for brutish cunning precluding the better save. Maw Krusha's are not bad by a long stretch and I stated they are still good in my post. But Maw Krusha's without ethereal amulet are pretty much feast or famine propositions at this point. They are never useless, but a good deal of the time those 450 pts are better spent elsewhere and in a take all comer environment where the meta has increasingly skewed shooting heavy, you will find yourself spending more and more of your time simply trying to screen and protect them, or having to go all in balls to the walls very early. Surely in many matchups they are still great, and if you aren't min maxing you won't regret them, but they are 100% not as good now as they were 6-8 months ago in my mind or perhaps "good" is the wrong word. They are less versatile. Meanwhile I think a foot megaboss is sneaky good. They often get ignored, but you pop a +1 damage on them and give them that 3d6 charge all of a sudden you can do some real damage in a situation your opponent was not expecting at all. They are making their points back as a support piece alone, but also can function as a turning point unit in the right circumstances. I just think they present less risk and are better in a situation where you don't know who your opponent will be (this was not my opinion 6 months ago, when I was using a maw krusha in my primary list).
Fair, mortals are becoming more and more common, meaning he is less killable for sure. With weirdun, ironclad, and daubing of mork, he has 2+ save, 6+ wound mortal wound save, and 4+ ignore enemy spell save, which helps with helps with blocking mortals.
And fwiw, when ethereal was an option, you still couldn't take it with ironclad. Ironclad adds to save, and ethereal Amulet ignored all modifiers, not just negative ones.
I find that brutish cunning in straight IJ isn't necessary, given that I always have mighty destroyers available. The big thing with the Krusha when you play is its distracting factor. You don't need it to survive all game, and I expect it to do die everytime. As long as it provides a massive target that takes a while to chew through while doing enough damage, it's doing its job. I like to play mind games by overhyping it to make sure it gets targeted and they ignore the rest.
Another huge difference between Waaagh and IJ is that IJ is a true alpha strike army. I will pretty much NEVER screen a Krusha, it will charge right in or get teleported.
I don't like the boss mainly because of speed. He's one of the slowest units in IJ (Krusha much faster, goregruntas fast, ardboyz big charge bonus). I know he can be a big combat beast, but I can't get him in. I also rarely use the +1 to hit CA, and save my points for rerolling charges and Mighty destroyers.
He may be less good, but I just wouldn't say 100% worse
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6 hours ago, tripchimeras said:
You absolutely do not need a maw krusha to take a good list. In fact once generic artifacts were jettisoned in July I think it took a decent sized hit in usability to begin with. The purely offensive builds for it are still good, but a bit less universal, especially with the shooting heavy meta we are in now. I would say a foot megaboss is better at this point anyways. For your subfaction the 2 best options if you are going ironjawz heavy is either Ironsunz or playing Big Waagh. I don't have as much experience with ironjawz faction as with big waagh, but rule of thumb is you probably want a 6 block of gore gruntas, 2-3 war chanters, a caster, your megaboss, and then after that you want to spam ardboyz and brutes. Ardboyz used to be unquestionably better then Brutes, but over the summer Ardboyz got 10pts more expensive and Brutes got 10pts cheaper. With covid and much fewer big tourneys being played since the last pt update , and the fact that I no longer play with ironjawz battleline aside from gore gruntas (I like bonesplitters battleline personally) I am not sure which is more efficient at this point. But I would guess that they are close enough in utility that I'd just choose whichever you like more and go for it and just spam away on that unit for the rest of your points (you probably want a battalion as well depending on what combination of units, when I was playing ironjawz last year the 2 go tos were ironfist or ardfist).
Personally I am a big fan of Big Waagh and what Bonesplitters have to offer in that combined list. But if you love Ironjawz there are definitely a couple of competitive ways to play them and you def don't need a krusha to do it. And most importantly unless you play tournament style competitive games, I think Orruk Warclans is a more then strong enough book (with basically no flat out bad units) that you probably can't go wrong however you want to play them and can ignore all of my advise above and just have fun :).
With all due respect, not sure I entirely agree with this. Aside from mortal wounds, you can make the maw-krusha an ever-growing, nigh-unkillable beast.
I still prefer ardboyz over brutes, but brutes are now good enough to be useable. 1-2 weirdnobs, 2 chanters, and 6-9 goregruntas (one unit) will do wonders.
You definitely want Ironfist, it works wonders.
In terms of subfaction, I generally go tribeless, as crazy as it sounds. Ironsunz is the best subfaction, and it's not very good. Go tribeless and you get to choose a command trait - take that ironclad for a 2+ save Krusha or Brutal cunning combined with Ironfist for 2 free Mighty Destroyers per turn.
As much as I love the Krusha, I know you don't XD. The foot boss will still work, you'll just lose some hitting power and a target for the enemy's shooting. The points youll get allow you to fit in 9 gruntas, which is very difficult to do with a Krusha.
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14 hours ago, novakai said:
It not all about popularity though, Keep in mind that Stormcast are purposely design for newer players in mind with both how bulky they are and easier to paint which makes them specifically good as a starter set army. Combine with the fact that they are the poster boy army and the default good guys of the setting, they fit the ball as the starter army for the general customer base.
I get that people want to be optimistic of GW doing something different but SCE chance that they are starter set is on the very likely chance
Despite the easy painting fact and then being the heroes and all that, they are still deceptively difficult to play well. At first glance, it looks like you can do anything with the faction, mainly making a cool elite melee fighting force with dragons and cavalry, while its actually a magic and/or shooting army.
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6 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Clearly stormcast.
Their greed For more new models, but not needing them, literally makes them the greatest enemy of any factions, wide and bright.
Hallelujah! I'm so sick of Stormcast.
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I agree with @PlasticCraic here. Fyreslayers are very difficult to fight - heed his advice, it may be your own only chance lol.
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30 minutes ago, Gutlord said:
It looks like the group I normally play against has added two new opponents that I have yet to face. One is fyreslayers and the other is slaanesh (never versed either before)......does anyone have any advice as what I may be up against and what I should be taking.
Usually I play either meatfist or bloodgullet, always take a frostlord but the rest is all gutbuster units. Sometimes I'll bring hrothgorn for the deep strike.
Cheers guys
Fyreslayers is...tough. Their Hearthguard berserkers do a lot of damage. A lot. With mortal wounds. Attacking twice. Additionally, they're difficult to kill. Targeting their heroes will weaken them, but it'll still be dificult. Fyreslayers is probably the best melee army in the game.
Slaanesh has big nasty things called Keeper(s) of Secrets. They move fast and hit hard. Slaanesh also has good magic and some mean tricks, such as making you fight last. If you survive all this, they're relatively easy to kill. Be warned though: for every 2 Keepers you kill, he'll someone another one. Slaanesh has a lot of summoning, and it will be all KoS's.
Bloodgullet will give you the tools you need to buff your units. I have found no reason to use Meatfist - bad ability, bad artefact, mediocre CA, and mediocre CT.
Use FLoSH's - they're fast, powerful, and hard to kill. Ironguts are also solid, doing lots of damage. I would not take Leadbelchers against Fyreslayers, their shots won't be enough to be effective. They wouldn't be bad against Slaanesh, though. Gluttons will at the very least provide a great screen, they should be able to do damage. Fyreslayers are very strong in general, Slaanesh is pretty good but punishes the high wound count of Mawtribes.
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I want Destruction to take a major role in the lore, and I want Destruction armies to be more competitive.
Nothin else.
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15 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:
Especially compared to Death, I think we are generally in a really good place. Lots of options (despite only a few books), some great competitive lists and some super models. The big issue is lack of (recent lore), but hopefully the Sons battletomb (and maybe some well times Black Library Action will help).
We have great list for Magic (Great Waaagh), Shooting (Ogors), Monster Mash (lots) and combat. With the last round of GHB updates I think Ogors and Orruks can definitely compete on the top tables.
Gonna have to disagree here. Destruction is one of the weakest competitively. They have great magic in Big Waaaaagh, but Bonesplitterz are frankly not great and IJ are too slow for the allegiance (you need to rely on outside means for Mighty destroyers). Ogor shooting is very unreliable, and all the shooting units are better in melee anyway. Stonehorns, some of the best units in Destruction, took a hard nerf with the GHB, as there is no more Ethereal Amulet, gryph-feather, thermalrider, etc.
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Destruction is missing something competitively, IMHO. They lack shooting and powerful magic, which dominate the meta right now. The Mawtribes book is oftentimes dysfunctional and seems half-assedly made. GSG relies on 180 grots, as squigs and troggoths (which are awesome) suck. Warclans has Ironjawz, our most competitive army, but it falls apart against magic and OBR. Bonesplitterz is good against monsters, but not many armies are using big monsters besides....Mawtribes, another Destruction army (and perhaps Tyrants Khorne). Not only do we need more armies and more units for each army, we need major buffs. GHB 2020 crippled destruction by allowing only 3 endless spells in a list (hurting GSG) and getting rid of all the malign sorcery artefacts (hurting IJ and OM).
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35 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:
Typo? You mean movement phase right?
Whoops! That's a typo, yeah 😂
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9 hours ago, Lillbengan said:
That is what I was thinking too.
So what is your take on it @NauticalSoup?
I have already written to that email about my qeustion aswell. So hopefully they will clear it up. Although the FAQ just got released anyway.
@MKsmash What did you end up with after your discussing about it?
There's more than just Mighty destroyers that allows you to move outside of the movement phase, such as one of Khorne's Blood Tithe abilities. I think it's pretty obvious that you must be able to move outside of the movement phase, given that there are multiple abilities allowing you to do so.
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Yup! And mighty destroyers may be the best CA in the game!
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1 hour ago, Drazhoath said:
Hey
A good day for my fat half-naked guys! I played against a Tzeentch list with Kayros and a second Lord of Change. And a bunch of mortals (Good for me: no flamers and horrors).
I played a lot of Gluttons, Iron Guts and Stone Horns. The other player was so suprised about the damage Output of the Iron Guts (21 Wounds for the LoC).
Now I LOVE Iron Guts. Do you think an unit of 4 is enough or better using 8?
It was a close and very funny match.
8 for sure. Its worth the 440 points.
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1 hour ago, Qrow said:
Other than the contorted epitome, what ally option have you has success using with the legion of azgorh. I am currently trialing the mindstealer sphiranx and I am loving it in my bull centaur list, having Some combat activation shenanigans can really even the battlefield
I use Blue Scribes and Iron Golems. The Scribes provide a near-guaranteed spell cast, which I use for the Soulsream Bridge. The Golems provide an awesome screen for fireglaives.
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1 minute ago, HollowHills said:
To me explicitly stating a desire to push for diversity is a left wing position. An anti racist position would just be ensuring no one actively blocks diverse characters.
Its the difference between equal rights for all versus giving extra rights to minority groups.
While I agree with all this, Games Workshop has not yet given extra rights to minority groups.
In fact, GW said very little in their statement. It was quite vague. They did not associate themselves with BLM. They only said something that I think most humans can agree with for the most part: " We do not condone any form of prejudice." -
Something I'm a bit confused about...
Why the need?
The factions in Warhammer are armies. Fact is, armies are predominantly male. The U.S. army is only 14% female and the U.K. Army is only 11%. If we include more female models, this will not be like real armies.
Now, I get that Warhammer is fantasy, not reality. "These aren't real armies, so there can be more representation than in real life!" But in Warhammer, aren't these armies led by strong, beefy men going to be, essentially, protecting the women and children?
They could be doing it out of chivalry, or a belief that women must be protected so that they can lead in the cities and empire themselves. Additionally, some armies simply cannot be imagined with a female counterpart. Can you imagine a female orc? I can't ( though this will certainly lead to someone finding a picture of a female orc).
However, I will agree that a lot of armies would benefit from more diversity in race.
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1 hour ago, mattbarker said:
Aww man, yeah forgot that. Last few game’s I played were 2500 point so had the lists saved lol. Forgot the ally limit goes up then so could sneak it in! They’re less useful at 20 unless they’re isn’t much shooting going on.
aesthetically the iron golems fit in really well. Just wish they were more than a meat shield lolConsidering how cool the golems look, I wish they better too. At least they have a shooting attack too!
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8 minutes ago, mattbarker said:
Yeah true, they do get more benefits as a screening shield though, especially with a Cheap nurgle Hero near!
Except I would have to ally in a nurgle hero though, as well as plaguebearers, all of which would exceed the ally points.
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6 minutes ago, mattbarker said:
I do the same with plaguebearers lol
Except plaguebearers are 60 points more.
AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Why am I not surprised? GW spites destruction again. Just another day of AOS.