Kitsumy
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Posts posted by Kitsumy
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It is easier to do numbers per points, so u dont need to compare more points versus less points.
Per example my analisis on sharks and eels is:
Shark-------------------morsar-----------------------,ishlaen
Wounds per point: 0,08. ---- 0,07. ----- 0,086
Dmg :. 1,32(rang)+4,73. ---- 10,56(chg)7,92(normal). ---- 9,24
Dmg per point:. 0,06. ---- 0,062 or 0,046. ----- 0,066
Average rend:. Slighty less 1. --- 1 or 0. ------ 0
Points:. Have ranged, ---- 0,017 mortals per point 1time---. Invulnerable save
no decreasing stats. 3+save on charge
So i think people always though morsar were better they really are on paper and i never thought they deserved the people hate, in fact i see sharks better now, at least number wise. And i always liked ishlaen, they are though and do the same dmg per point than spears one, only losing some rend, but dont rely on charges
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i love when numbers and time shows how im right.
Honestwargamer just make a video with the analisis of changes and of course he said the massive point drop on eidolons shows how BAD those ones were at the beginning, and they are still bad at actual points, and should be around 300points, even lower than 300 would be okish since they are worse than beasts like verminlords or keepers.....
So a pro analitical guy and his team said the same thing as me, numbers show im right( noone uses those models since they are useless), they are worse and cost more than similar beasts in orher tomes. BUT everytime i have said that since they were released i got tipicals replys like u dont know how to play, change army,they are good and problem is u dont know how to play etc etc
Despite i show numbers and solid reasons, not like those random guys replys
Like some post above haha
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Why? Give any data.
I can show u how they are on 8th place on tournaments. Only spaming eels since they are our only viable units. It is a fact, not people saying " all ur saying and showing is wrong, everything is fine. Because i say it with 0 info behind that"
Show me any tome with:
Worse magic spells
Worse relics
Worse command thraiths
Worse prayers, if u can call our jokes prayers lol
Worse command abilitys,, oh wait our since command ability haha
Any beast mage with 2 cast that do less dmg or have worse abilitys than our mage avatar, i wont ask for same points, even cheaper ones are way better.
Then we could start having a conversation
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Idk need warscroll changes asap.
Thralls are useless for me untill they get 2" on his weapons, they wield massive 2 hand weapons but have the same range as tiny goblin knifes lol, right now they are paper tin with bad armor save and wont kill anything since there isnt any way to field on units bigger than 10, since only 7-10 will usually fight, unless u fighting against huge units. So they wont destroy the unit they charge and will die back always.
Sharks should cost 85p, so still overpriced but they are playable on friendly games now.
Melee avatar is a beast stick but have the stats of other same units that cost 250-300 soo he need to go down to 300 minimun.
Mage one is even worse, his dmg is a joke, around 6? Hacent bonus to cast, only 1 reroll in exchange of his healing, havent more nice abilitys, no command ability, and only 2 casts??? And idk spells are sooo bad, even the hero teleport one is useless when lots if armys have 4 or 5 op spells AND a spell to teleport any unit not only heros. Other mage beasts like verminlords, keepers, unclean one or arkhan, do so much dmg than him, have bonus to casts,have amazing auras, abilitys, COMANDS abilitys etc. And all them cost around 250-350 do yeah, no reason to mage avatar costing more than 300 rught now, or even at 280 it wouldnt be an auto include.
Tidecaster has the worst stats among ever mage, dont get why cost 100 instead 80, a human mage cast 1 ( 2 on mage sect)spells with +1 to cast and cost 90 lol
Turtle is useless since it is only a beast stick, since the aura is useless 99% if the time,
turn 1?? We allready have cover.
Turn 2?? We will be charging since we can run and charge.
Turn 3?? Again charging since we will retreat and charge.
Same will hapen on reversetide, so it is only useful on some niche cases where u loose iniciative on the beggining of turn 2 or 3, thats it. And as beast stick cant cost more than 220-250p doing only around 10 dmg only, aura should be changed to +1 save.
In general we are in dire need of a new tome, sure we can be competitive, around 8-9 place on tournamments data, only spaming eels, but in general thats pretty low, and only spaming our "op unit". We need all above changes on scrolls. New proper magic not this useless spells, new relics, command traiths etc, and of course a 3+ prayers, not those jokes prayers at 10+ jaja.
And of course akhelian command shouldnt need to be general or be on high tide , since lots of armys have a generic +1 atack aura command allready without downsides. Aand add more comand abilitys to avatars, and maybe octo guy.
Boat isnt aging well neither, every new terrain is so much stronger now, u only need to see the new boneteaper one haha
But at least those changes are nice for casuals games( like i play) i gained 120 points on my list
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Yes those idk reductions are nice but wont change anything.
Melee avatar as beast stick is still waaay overpriced if u compare him to others beasts like manglers.
Mage one.... Cant even start comparing him to verminlords and keepers, even at same points ( less than 300) he would be worse.
Turtle one is the only fun change, still they need to change his aura to +1 save, since the actual one is useless. Idk allready have cover turn1, and they will be charging on t2 making it 100% useless, and on reversetide list yes, they could gain cover on t1 if u arent first, thats all. Since idk will be charging on t1 being able to run and charge.
And statswise it is still bad for 300+
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Lol a phoenix still can get to 2s rerroling 1s and 4+++?? Thats nuts. I thought it was nerfed to 4+ on tome and thats is.
Of course everything with 2+ save is op broken and should be nerfed, same thing as nagash on new bonereapers saving at 2s rerrolling 1s and 6+++. No mini should get anything better than 3+. Isnt fun to play against those
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Of course they are absolute broken. Every tome is a powercreep. With some of them being on levels like fec and skavens. Then slanesh. And now this.
Katakros is cheap. Not absurdly cheap. But cheaper than i thought he woukd be.
Mortek guard are..... Absurd??? 130p for 10w saving at 3, reroling faill always when u need it?? With a 6+++ and reviving 6-9 models per turn if u have some heros cloose ( u should) Sure that wont be broken at all.
The 4 arms dudes are sligthy bad on base. But after using his special ability they get to op levels. Exactly same stats per point than others elites but with 1 better rend for free. Why not. With better save and access to revives or heals....
The artillery is nuts. It is the best ranged dps unit by far and having full table range....
Cavalry is ok. Strong but not as broken as others units at first glimpse
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Oh i always paint my models as some official colour( if is the one i like the most) but play them as different one ruleswise.
Never encounted a ****** triying to force someone to play as the one they are painted lol. And i would have a nice argue with him if i encounter him.
My eldars have saim han colours and even the serpents tattos but of course they are played always as alaitoc. Same for my idoneths. Mine are on blueish like the first enclave but i play them as fuethan always.
It is a game who cares about silly things as colours etc. While the minis be the official minis ( i hate kitbashed ones) i dont care about paint or unpaint on them. And lucky noone does around my country( spain). I dont get why one some regions like usa or brittain people is so forceful on wysigisi( whatever u spell it) and colours etc. Who cares about those little details. If u say all those ultramarines( blue) are blood angels ( red) before the game. It is totally fine. Or people expect someone play with rules they hate ( after new edittion or rules change) or repaint all his army with every change?
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3 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:
It’s comical how there’s a thread about slaanesh summoning like it’s the only broke thing in the game.... what about Fyreslayers with +2 save and a ++4 ward. So one army brings back what you kill (ish) and the other can’t be killed.
Theres always broken builds. Dok held that throne for a good while, then fec and skaven. These 3 have been ‘nerfed’ and they’re pretty much just as powerful.
The next 4 battletomes will counter slaanesh, and FS... and the power creep will continue.
Yes heartguard bersekers are as broken as slanesh. No doubt there.
U said it. Dok. Fec.skaven.lon dominated before. And tell me what happened to them????
All they got some nerfs since they were OVERpowers. Same thing will happen to slanesh i guarante u. Despite people triying to defend them.
Fact is. They are dominating absurdly tournaments even more than old fec. So u guys can rejoice for 5 months till next rebalance of points when they will bring slanesh in line with the remaining tomes.
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Everyone knows slanesh summoning is broken and op. But some people who likes to have easy wins try to deny it. And try to force people to think they are ok.
fact is they are even more op than old FEC was. And despite all those fec players claiming they were ok( like this slanesh dude is triying) GW sligthy balanced them ( i think they are way stronger than most. But it was something). Same thing will happen to slanesh, bad thing is we will have to wait 5 months to next aos rebalance of points where every slanesh hero will get a point increase.
Exactly the same as those "balanced" arch regant and sumonning drake were nerfed on general book.
Btw why did u skip my maths sowhing u how the kepeer was better and cheaper than per example mage avatar? Of course u know numbers wasnt on ur favour and tried to compare it to verminlords. And in my opinnion verminlords are the single most undercosted and totally unbalanced unit in all aos by far. Even worse than all slanesh fec. Nagash etc together. So every unit compared against them will be bad of course
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Eer. Sea avatar of idoneths. Cast 2 spells as keeper. Do the same dmg. But with so much lower rend. And 0 mortals not like the high rends or mortals on keper.
Comand traith of keeper is totally op and only it shoukd cost 100points alone.
Have 2 more wounds.with 6fnp. Where avatar have 1 more armor and no degrading stats.
Keeper have that absurdly broken ability leting 1 cloose unit fight last always.
So i think everyone can see how keeper alone without any summoning is allready far stronger than sea avatar. And avatar cost 420p. Where keeper only cost 360....
So yes. They are even way too cheap without any summon. I was being a good guy saying they were "balanced only".
There was a reason why old fec dragon always figthing first and 2 times had to be rebalanced. Same thing have to be done to slanesh heros .There cant be any unit figthing always first and even 2 times!
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Eeer why are u happy about that coment????
I will translate that typical gw answer to his real meaning:
Yes u can squat those units since we are deleting them. Sure u can mount them up. Paint them up etc. And even play with them with old points and rules. ( like old high elves. Wood elves. Etc could) but in the real world they are dead without any rule. Point or army behind them.
Im in fact soooo sad about that answer...... I was hoping it wasnt true.and they would be rebasing some of them etc. But they are really squating most of the high elves.wood.and dwarfs models....
This is maybe the sadest notice from gw since the end of fantasy ( despite aos being a great game). And despite im an idoneth player ( since i forced myself to dont buy any old army like high elves because i knew how ****** gw can be) im with u all old elfs budys and feel ur pain.
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Sumoning could be balanced if every unit on the codex would cost 50-70% more his intended cost to makeup for the fact u can sumon free units in the game.thats way despite playing a 3k vs 2k game in reality u would be playing a evenly 2k game. But they arent. Every summoning codex has his points balanced without any summoning in play.
So of course after u add the free sumon they get absurdly stupid.
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So every plastic eldar going up. Despite most of them being 10+years old.
and. reapers????? They are around 20 years old models i think? And they are in finecast. They should give them for free. What is the excuse on raising prices on that ****** material. 34€ for 5 little finecast modelscwas allready too much.
+++ MOD HAT +++ Corrected your mispelling of finecast...
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U cant see fireslayer numbers yet. Those tables are since the start of aos 2. And slayers git the tome less than 1 month ago.
And again noone is asking for huge nerfs ti hearth alone. Those shoukd go together buffs in others places. So the total power remain the same but with a better distribution than 99% on 1 unit only.
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Eels broken?? Letss se numbers.taken from honest tables ( i dont know if they are accurate or not but it is all i have)
Tournaments won: 9th place
5+wins etc: 8th place
Winrate: 6th place.
So stats shows idk are roughly 7th at best. That is spaming only the supossed broken op autowin eels..... So if they are so broken as haters claim why arent they 1-2 place? Heck we arent even on top 5.
My maths. And tourney numbers shows eels were perfect. Strong for sure but milles away to be op. Despite the hate some guys have them.
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Where do it says it? I cant see the coment on my tablet.
But is a nice change. It was retarded otherwise. It woukd hurt us but would make others factions like sylvaneth unplayable.
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Problem with FEC is they have every broken mechanic in the game.
Free summon need to be balanced. Rigth now gw says it is summed on army points but if that is true that cost is way too low. Noone can say a unit sumoning 50-80% of his points is balanced.
Always atack first. In a balanced game it could be ok. Since you coukd takedown those units with shotting or magic. Problem is shotting is overpriced right now in aos and is useless on most of the units. And magic, some armyes havent any or have bad mages or useless spells.
Atack 2 times mechanic.... Undead drake, hearthguards, skelletons atacking 2 times arent good for the game.and i think noone should be able to double up his value so easy.
So the problem isnt only fec points. Problem are all those broken mechanics and the fact they have all them. And that isnt easy to balance. Even harder with only a errata.
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People like me arent asking for nerfs to fyreslayers as army. Only want that hearthguard be a bit more balanced. Since right now they are absolutly broken op and noone can deny it. Saying dont go cloose them is a joke i think. Since it is sooo stupid. So a unit can be broken since you only need to avoid it.....
And 4 mv... When they can deepstrike or have the tools to run ( auto 6) and charge with +2 to more, run or charge i dont remember. So they can move 12 minimun and charge with rigth setup. I wouldnt call slow to that.
I dont mind if they lower the cost in every other unit of the book and nerf hearthguard down to earthling levels. Even if the full list get 100 points discount. Fyreslayer as army dont need a nerf ( still too soon to know it for sure) they seems really strong and being able to get to 4-5 place. But still far away from the god tier. But hearthguard deserve to be sligthy balanced.
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1 hour ago, Qrow said:
So what about the upcoming fyreslayers nerf? I have seen people calling for/expecting to see hearthguard beserkers go up 20 points AND lose their horde bonus, but if they did that it would be the single biggest nerf to a unit in all AoS, it would be a 240 point increase in the cost of the unit.
While I understand it is overperforming, I can't imagine FS remaining competetative with such a big nerf. I could see the horde bonus going or an increase in cost, but both together would be overkill.
Hearthguard berserkers need +40 point increase. Or +20 and remove the atack 2 times batallion. Rigth now they are absurd. Every elite unit ( tipical unit with around 20 atacks at 3+3+ -1rend) usually cost around 130-140 with 10ws and 4 or 5 save. But bersekers do that dmg plus the 5 trhowing axes. Have 2" range on his weapons( thats absolute huge with bases bigger than 25) have 10w. And a 5 armor. But... If they are cloose to a hero they get a 4+ fnp....
So rigth now they are the tankiest elite unit on the game. With the best dps in the game. And u could think they would be most expensive one. But noo.they are the cheapest one. And to add salt there they have a batallion to atack 2 times omg. So yeah. They must be 140 minimun without chance to atack 2 times or 160 and keeping the batallion.
But also have to change the vulkites. They should go down to 140 i think. Cant go lower since they have 20w at 5+ doing 11 dmg at melee and having the throwing axes. But if they balance the hearthguard i think the vulkites could get some love since even with those op hearthguard fyreslayer arent cloose to fec.skaven.dok.lon. levels tourneywise. At least untill now
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Idk on same tier than nagash or slanesh would be a joke. They are better than stormcast for sure. But they are far far faaaar worse than lon or slanesh.
So idk arent higher than A On any world. And that is being forced to play only 1 list.
Gloomspite arent so far neither. I would even say they should be A. Still dont get how arent they doing better with those fanatics,goblin knights, trolls, manglers etc
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57 minutes ago, Primes said:
How can a Stardrake be 560 when you compare it to a Verminlord? How can the Prime still be so expensive? Why are Eels 170 and Evos on Dracolines 300? Not speaking of Internal Balance where the Point Changes wont make older units viable but make strong Units weaker. Or are Palladors now worth it?
I may Sound salty but I would honestly love to be proven wrong from a mathematical standpoint
Wont say those stormcast units are op or anything. But i think they are pretty good. Stardrake is great in fact i thought it would get a point increase. Since it can be a behemoth with 2+ save and doing mortals on 4 or 5s etc. But verminlords are absurdly cheap. They cant cost less than 350-400 by any means. Idoneths mage avatar are the same as verminlords and cost 420 per example.
Dracholines do 13.64 wounds with -1 rend on the charge if they use the normal weapon.
17.18 -1rend wounds on the charge if they cast his spells that being a 6+ ahould be 100% as median since the median on 2 dices are 7. If the oponnent havent a mage.
2 special weapons:
16.72 roughly 0.75 rend since 2/3 of the atacks have 1 rend and the remaining 0.
21.06 if have his spell.
They have 15 wounds with 4+ save rerroling 1s to shoting. And 8 ld making them pretty inmune to it. And a -1 ld area. And being mages can dispell 1 time.
And they do 3 mortals every turn. Not like eels that do the same once per battle only.
So counting the mortals they do:
16.64w or 20,18 with the speel
Special weapons do 19,72 or 23,06 with spell.
Eels do 11,44 -1 rend ( half -2 other half 0 so median is 1 in all) on the charge.
And once per game they do roughly 2.4 mortals.
Have 12 w. 4+save. 6ld ( so even with only 1 death they can start losing models despite being the royalty among idoneths). Move 2 more and fly ( pretty useles on aos most of the time)
So dmgwise only .maximun dmgper point.
Drach has 0.076 ( on best case) Vs eels 0,067 normal or 0.081 the only turn they use his ability.
But tankwise eels have more wounds with sligthy worse save again shoting. A ridiculous leadership etc.
In general MY conclusion ( numbers dont lie but everyone can understand them different) is eels are tankier and do sligthy less to roughly the same dmg per points than dracholines. . There are more differences like eels fliying havind a joke leadership. Stormcast being able to cancel spells aura of -1ld etc. But all in all of course eels are better. But the margin is waaay shorter than i thought it would be since every non idk cry about those eels being so broken and stormcast criying about dracholines being so underpower.
Of course this isnt counting external abilitys. Like those eels being fuethan rerolling 1s to wound on mount. Or having volturnos cloose to reroll 1s to hit. Or stormcast having the +1 armor of castellan i think? Or his dhacholine hero buffing them etc. I think eels would win even more than stormcast with this but i dont want to do the numbers now haha.
Maybe dracholines should have get a -20 or 30 point decrease on ghb making them great for me. But at least watching those numbers i dont think they be so bad.
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1 hour ago, TristanGray said:
My local store can’t get in the KO or Idoneth battletomes anymore because they’re being “updated”. Helllo!
even as idoneth player who would love to see a new tome with usables relycs.command thraiths. more than 1 ultra niche command ability etc.
We dont deserve a new tome till 1 year more minimun. There are tons of army of dire need before us. Like disspossed. High elfs( they exist despite gw dont remember it). Wood elves. Dark elves. Etc and even new ones like ironjaws.seraphons.bonesplitter etc.
So are or ur stowe owner joking or is this true??
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5 hours ago, HollowHills said:
@swarmofseals thanks for such an insightful and detailed post. It's really interesting to hear from someone balancing the divide between rules writers and players.
I have three questions:
1) How do you think the activation system of aos impacts balance? I k ow you've touched a bit on this but I'd like to know further. For example, thralls seem overcosted even at 130. This seems to be primarily on the basis that a 5 up save means that unless the unit goes first, it will probably die. Doing 30 wounds to a unit with a 5 up save is not that hard. However, if they activate first they probably can do a lot of damage. It seems like there are a few units which work like this and end up falling out of favour.
2) How are base sizes taken into account? For example, bloodreavers and marauders are both horde units that fill a similar role in a chaos army. However, reavers are on 32mm with marauders on 25mm. As such you can get a lot more marauders into combat.
3) What is the point of units like Lotann and how do you even fix them with points? Support characters that don't contribute a single powerful and reliable buff seem to have no place in AoS.
Exactly that. Glass canon units like thralls are hard to balance since they will mince meat a minimun size unit if can atack. But problem is noone field minimun size units. And thralls are forced to be played like that since i dont know why they only have 1" on his giant weapons. So only the front row will atack always and since even a squeze will kill them in hundreds and they have one of the lowest leadership on the game ( despite being semi elite army and elfs for godsake) u will loose 20+ of them against every confront.
I would raise his point to 140 again. Raise his weapon range to 2" and raise all idoneth army leadership in 1 to 7ld. This would make them so much fun. Since u coukd field them as 20. And would die as fast as now. But at least leadership wouldnt hurt so much and soulrender would start to have a purpose rezzing 2 of them every turn.
Till gw dont do those changes thralls will keep being on a weird spot since cant be fielded on big sizes for his base sizes. Low armor and leadership. But arent so good as minimun unit since lack the punch to wipe out the unit the charge and them they will be wiped on the counter. And im sure gw will keep lowering his points on every boock till 110-120 on the future. And no aelve army should be an horde so i highly dislike this.
Btw i dont find lothan sooo bad ( despite him and the avatar are the only models i dont have) he isnt so bad dmg and defensewise for a 80p hero. And +1ld to thralls and reroll 1s isnt bad. He isnt great for sure but i think he is as good or even better than soulrender. And fir sure better than the overprized soulscryer for 130p
AoS 2 - Idoneth Deepkin Discussion
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Melee one is okish, only downside is he is overpriced.
Mage one is useless, only need to make ur a question, what do u prefer, 1 monster with 12w and 2 spells/dispells or 4 mages with 20w and 4 spells/dispells? His melee dmg is so low that is irrelevant, he is only a 2 cast mage with +bravery aura, only worth around 300points for me, but some people thinks he can be good, so im waitting his reasons behind that too