Dr Ben
-
Posts
121 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Store
Downloads
Blogs
Events
Posts posted by Dr Ben
-
-
2 hours ago, Gecktron said:
Im slowly starting to see some use in the new Arkanauts. +1 to-hit within 9" of an objective sounds interesting. 20 or so with a Khemist nearby should still be dangerous enough to defend against stuff slipping trough the frontline. Double pike, Hook and Volley gun could be useful for only 180 points.
2 hours ago, Entombet said:And the things that compensate 50% dmg drop on all infantry are?
Ships or skywardens are going to take on the character sniping duties. KO players are obviously going to have to find new ways of using ArkCo. One initial suggestion maybe to try layered multiple smaller units of 10-20. The front couple of units get charged, but then the rest of the units open fire with all of their weapons being in range, rather than having effectively 3 weapons per 10 models in the old way of doing things. 620 points used to get you your 40 company and 1 khemist. 630 points now gets you 70 company. That's so much better for playing objectives and, if the screening works out, a lot more pistol and volley gun shots. Have fun experimenting.
If anything I think endrinriggers are the losers in this book. Without the old khemist buff there doesn't seem to be much advantage over skywardens other than a bit of unreliable healing on ships.
48 minutes ago, Lord Panther said:I'm just about to order Thundriks lot to give me a spare skywarden. Then I'm going to use the Endrinmaster and one of the Balloon Boys from my unused Start Collecting to custom build my own.
Now if only I can figure out a decent way to mount the Ironclad on a flying stand I'll be happy. I don't want to go down the plonking it on top of a ruin route as I always think they look like they are crashing.
Maybe make a sky-port docking station out of some 40k terrain? I've seen one online that was going through a custom built realmgate which looked awesome and suspended the ironclad (a lot of effort though!).
-
1
-
-
6 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:
What other dwarfs are tempting for the port that can take them? I've got iron drakes, longbeards and gyrocopters already, but I don't know if I can resist getting some Fyreslayers to paint up. Big thing stopping me was not wanting to do a whole army
4 hours ago, Thostos said:When KOs were first released,the build I ran had a block of 20 Vulkites and the Runesmiter with the key that allowed them to backdoor my oponents,,worked pretty well.
I think any power pair of cheap buff character and melee block could have a role. Runesmiter + vulkites/hearth guard or runesmith +longbeards/ironbreaker can all work depending on what you own or want to paint.
Depending on how shooting is adjusted Gyrocopters are worth a look as well. KO pay a big premium for high rend character sniping but can struggle to thin down hordes. If that is unchanged a steam gun or three might be a very useful piece to add.
-
2
-
-
42 minutes ago, crkhobbit said:
"A garrisoning unit can leave in your movement phase. When it does, set it up so that all models from the unit are within 6" of the terrain feature and more than 3" from any enemy units. This counts as their move for that movement phase."
So the embark/disembark rules might not change. But garrisoned units can leave during the movement phase. Based only on what we know right now, you can absolutely have a 3 drop army that can teleport almost anywhere on the board, then have units jump out and only need a 3" charge.
Very good point. That seems pretty tasty.
I suppose embark/disembark could even just be replaced by garrison rules. That would tidy up the warscrolls nicely. I guess we'll have to see if anything in the book over-rides the core rules about garrisons you've referred to above.
-
49 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:
Thats quite a bit of dakka right there! The new endrinmaster model.
While I'm sure KO will be most effective in KO, the new book certainly will make Tempest Eye interesting.
Endrinmaster definitely shaping up nicely. Reliable, if not massive, damage.
The thing that caught my eye was that flying high is in the warscroll changes section on of the reveal. How about teleporting airships in tempests eye?
-
14 minutes ago, WatcherintheWater said:
Even without a battalion, you can probably get down to 3 drops or so (unless they change the rules for deploying in skyvessals).
The one downside that I see is that because flying high happens in the movement phase, and disembarking happens at the start of the hero phase (unless it changes too), you can't get out of the boats to do the Endrinrigger charge, and do risk getting surrounded on the following turn.
True. However, this might allow gunhaulers to actually act as escort vessels for the tactic suggested by sirescott. Fly high with all your airships, drop down, shoot 1 enemy flank to bits and use the gunhaulers to screen charges from the other flank.
I'm also still hoping disembarking will be at the end of the movement phase ...
18 minutes ago, Kramer said:Agreed. Terrain and endless spells are just part of the overall package of allegiance and warscroll abilities. I'm happy to have less to buy personally. We'll have to wait a week to find out about the rest of the allegiance abilities but early signs seem good. Barak zon is a big buff on the old version at least.
19 minutes ago, SireScott said:If there are good battalions the idea of deploying your whole army in airships across the backline, giving your opponent first turn then deep striking to focus on one part of the army sounds potentially superb.
Interesting that this ability seems to be in the warscroll section. So it seems like tempests eye could also use deepstriking ships...... Might not turn out to be good, but an intriguing possibility
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
I actually just noticed this too and was wondering what that was all about.
I guess it probably develops the aerial combat rules from GHB2018, maybe with more battle plans etc. But it could be something more independent from the main rules.
30 minutes ago, Beliman said:I must disagree. 34" is massive. That ability alone can stop a first turn charge (I'm looking at you Mawcrusha...), something that we couldn't do before.
And having an inner keyword hero to remove Endless Spells , is a new tool and I'm happy to not having to take an Incantor for that... and that without knowing any Allegiance Abilities!!!25 minutes ago, mikethefish said:Exactly. He has the same TYPE of abilities, but they are massively expanded.
BTW - the range on his storm is actually 36 inches, I believe
There are definitely plenty of fast flying things to slow down these days. The aetherstorm ability is a more reliable and longer range, but more situational version of several cities of sigmar spells. You are mostly paying about 90points for those spells and you have to chose between the cast and the dispel attempt. Assuming correct translation, the navigator doesn't have to chose between aether storm and dispel, so you effectively get the dispel for free. Also assuming no significant change in price, in comparison to a (non Hallowheart) battlemage the navigator seems pretty decent.
-
1
-
-
Various buffs to company and ships would all be nice. But the single main change I hope to see is disembark at the end of the movement phase. There are now a few set ups at the end of movement phase. So I'm cautiously optimistic. It's not like you can't do the same thing with soul scream Bridge in other armies. Doing that would open up so much more functionality for both ships and company outside of deep strike. Perhaps more importantly it would help the army play in a way which feels right.
-
3
-
-
3 hours ago, Soolong said:
Not sure KO can be done in either style because the large ships are troop carriers as well. The ships ,outside the gunhauler, are costed as troop carriers and their warscrolls are built around moving troops about. It is why they have always been lacking in armour and damage output. They would not work like other behemoth armies.
Actually thinking about it, you could have two warscrolls for each ship, including the gunhauler. One that allows troops to be carried , let's say 3 ballon boys for a gunhauler, 10 foot troops for the frigate and 15 for the ironclads plus the rule for more troops equals movement loss. Then the other warscrolls could be straight up battle ships with higher armour and better weapons but they lose the troop carrying ability.
For the non troop version you could have make different KO heros into the captain of each ship and have them unlock different abilities. An admiral as captain of a ship could unlock the abilitie to make ships battleline. Khemist could unlock double shoots on a ship etc.
Would require a complete rework but that's what new battletomes are for.
Im not sure how likely it is, but I like the idea of double warscrolls for carriers vs battleships. They would need a way to visually distinguish one from the other on TableTop though. The only way I can think of doing that would be to lock it to the weapon type. Troop carriers have to have great sky hooks and battleships have to have cannons or volley guns for example.
I see your reasons for why a behemoth (big ship) focused KO subfaction wouldn't work very well. But that isn't necessarily a reason we won't see it. Thundertusk focused BCR battalions and the magmadroth focused fyreslayer Lodge don't really work very well, but they are still in the books for those who want to play it.
-
2 hours ago, 5kaven5lave said:
Hopefully the army will become a bit more balanced and have some decent melee options as well as the shooting we love. And some decent gunboats.
Not a huge amount of minis in that box though or is it just me?
Not a huge amount of minis. But a bit more than 2 start collecting sets of value for each army, especially given new start collecting seem smaller the older ones. So that's about what I'd expect.
The box components make it seem hopeful that the new character will unlock riggers and/or wardens as Battleline.
-
3
-
-
On 11/13/2019 at 4:38 PM, Duke of Gisoreux said:
What do you think about this list?
Replying only a month late!
Have you had some games with the list?
Have you tried putting in a ghyran battlemage to give gotrek a little more mobility?
I like the inclusion of the frostheart. A lot of the hammerhal lists on this thread have a big freeguild focus. I've no complaints about that, I just happen not to be into pantaloons myself. It seems to me like frostheart phoenix's would make good use of the command ability because they can move forward fast, survive combat to fight again at the end of the round and it compensates for their main downside which is that their damage isn't that great. So I've been wondering if anyone has tried out frostheart(s) in hammerhal and could say how it went?
-
4 hours ago, SwampHeart said:
I think Hammerhal has some legs and GWF has one of the nastiest alphas in the game. I just don't think they've got the same breadth of tools as the top 3 cities. Phoenicum lives pretty happily in the 'fun for casual play/FLGS tournament' band and Anvilguard is Anvilguard. Its really sad because I think Vitriotic Spray + Portals is amazing and could probably carry the city but then you just look at what all you give up to get there and feels so lackluster. That said just typing this I wonder if there is value in a 3 prong Anvilguard shooting build where you look at some Helstorms, some Longstrikes, and some maybe Crossbowmen or Darkshards so that you can really effectively unpack an enemy army in one turn?
Yeah, Hammerhal hasn't been discussed that much on this thread. But I reckon some pretty viable lists could be put together. A double fighting frostheart or two with +1 to hit from command trait/artefact and rerolling wounds command ability seems like it would be pretty hard for many armies to deal with.
In reference to earlier shooting discussions and discussion about Hallowheart lists which have focused on magic damage output.... Hallowheart shooting lists I think could give tempests eye equivalents a run for their money. I haven't had the chance to play out the match so all theory. But in theory... Ignite weapons replaces hawk eyed very well if you are focused on one big unit of irondrakes/handgunners. The hurricanum for hit bonus is obviously amazing in Hallowheart. Spell protection helps against debuffs and mortal wounds on your 30 irondrakes. And you can either send them up the board with the bridge or block your enemy with spells while you shoot them.
-
1 hour ago, Forrix said:
Yeah, that said even with the double shots if the unit has 10+ or more models and a 4+ or worse save (I think). I'll point out though that the Ironblaster is better in melee with the Ogor attacks and the Azyr app says Ironblasters get 2 attacks for the Rhinox Horns while the Scraplauncher only gets 1 attack. I think that's a typo but I don't have my book on me.
Surely the main benefit of playing Ironblasters is that we can now decide who wins in a fight between a rhino and a shark? Comparing an ironblaster (est120pt. Est 2.3 dmg, 2.7 on charge vs 4+ plus 1 mortal wound) to an allopex (120pt, Est 3.1dmg vs 4+). Its pretty close if the rhino gets the charge, but the shark moves faster, flies and is still never picked for its warscroll.
It is looking pretty rough for the old ironblaster. If you want something cheap to hold a back objective, beat up skinks or heart-renders and take pot shots which will very occasionally snipe support characters then I can see occasional use for one. But then again why not use leadbelchers, Maneaters or a spare tyrant to do the same job better and offer more versatility.
-
1
-
-
9 hours ago, Painkiller95 said:
The main problem I have with the gorger is that it fills the same role as the Hunter/sabres combo, even if you buff them there is still this role override problem. I'd rather have them change role completely to offer something new and different.
They do play the same role,one is gut busters the other BCR I guess. The main difference I can see gameplay wide is that the gorgers are more likely to make their charge than the hunter but less than the Frost sabres. Also I have gorgers
(converted skin wolves anyway)
-
3 hours ago, Kramer said:
Tailored lists are impossible if you just want to test out units. But totally with you on the leadbelchers.
would you add a hunter with some cats in? To have some turn 1 backfield pressure? Or a firebelly for Ash cloud turn one ?
We do have a lot of easy battalions so a two/three drop army shouldn’t be impossible.If you know you are going vs greywater probably use the - 1 hit mawtribes. Killing them won't be a problem so you don't need the extra buff spells. You just need to survive that first volley or two. Probably also FLoSH with ethereal amulet if you have one. It might die to all that shooting but at - 1 to hit and ethereal it should soak up enough firepower to let your other stuff into combat.
3 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:Gorgers probably just need to come down a few points. A unit of two stands reasonably good odds of sniping a wizard or clearing a 10 man objective holder
-
I'm no pro, so you probably want to wait for those guys, but for tabletop standard I've never been unhappy with the results of mixing sand into artists acrylics and applying with any flat object. Children's pva glue applicators and cocktail sticks for around feet are what I tend to use because we have them around the house. For the paint I've mostly used a heavy body acrylic burnt Sienna to make a nice rich dark brown mud. Its nice and thick which I find makes it much easier to control. I'm sure you could go cheaper but it's still much more economical that citadel across a whole army.
-
55 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:
Does anybody think any of the Gutbuster battalions are worth taking? I think I’d just rather have more gluttons or Ironguts
More ogres is never a bad choice. None of the gutbuster battalions are amazing, but I think they are definitely worth considering (although I don't expect that anybody will have 3 scraplauncher's ready to go!). The other three battalions all have very good core unit composition. You probably want a starting CP for turn 1 battleshock anyway. Extra artefacts are really good value if you plan to take a frostlord/huskard or two in a mainly gutbusters list and/or if you want to take one of the tribes with their mandatory 1st artefact. The tyrant guard ability definitely has potential (its a shame you cant pass the wounds to gnoblars or gluttons but oh well). The ability to split up wounds across multiple units is especially helpful when there is quite a lot of 1 or d3 wound heals. The goremand ability is ok, I think probably better if used to double heal a stonehorn or two rather than in a pure gutbusters list. The butchers band ability isn't great, but the battalion potentially has all the gutbusters units you want (except another hero or two) making it a reasonable option if you want to be very low drop.
-
2 hours ago, annarborhawk said:
I think the 5+ FNP on Stonehorns might math-out better overall than the 1/2 damage mechanic given all the 1 wound weapons out there. Also a defense to mortal wounds now?
Based on what we know, this book might be a major upgrade for BCR anyway. Certainly, it takes them out of the basement I think and into viability.
Agreed. I don't think GW was ever going to make their cheapest and probably quickest to paint army S tier. That would just be a disaster for the game. Likewise, with frost wreathed ice, that ability had such a bad reputation it was very unlikely to stay the same this book. I think with the wide range of mild to moderate buffs, new abilities/combos and minor per-model points reductions for a couple of key units, it will definitely be able to mix with most armies now.
Also agreed on the 5+ FNP being better than halving damage in most games. Especially now you have a few different ways to heal and start with extra wounds. I think I might try using a tanked up Stonehorn as a distraction carnifex whilst a couple of units of ironguts run around actually killing (and eating) everyone.
42 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:Looking over the stuff as mostly a BCR player and a couple thing look good:
Mournfang, looking legit now with the upgrades and the buffs we can get on them.
Eurlbad battalion: Additional mortal wounds on 6s from melee attacks for the whole battalion, for 140. Yes please. This thing seems like a no brainer. All my initial thoughts have started there.
2 hours ago, Frowny said:It is very easy to get low drops, with several easy 1-drop battalions if you are so inclined. 2 battalions will get you a very diverse army with lots of good choices.
The ranged options are terrible compared to those in cities of sigmar.
Gnoblars I think will fill an important role camping backfield objectives and providing screens. They cover area really really well for their price, although unlike other hordes they hit like wet noodles even with buffs in place. I still think that 2x20 will be a role-player for many lists though.
Mournfang have definitely improved quite a bit. You can combo up for some very juicy looking charges.
I think the battalions generally are good for both Gutbusters and BCR. I expect most armies will use at least 1. They're a reasonable price, especially compared to the old BCR ones. None of the abilities are crazy, but most do something vaguely useful in addition to lowering drops, artifact and CP. The unit compositions are pretty sensible and a solid core for most of the lists most people will probably want to make. The last point is especially key for me. My other main army is dispossessed, who didn't get a single battalion in the mostly really good CoS book (unless you collect high elves anyway).
The ranged options may be terrible, but at least mawtribes actually have cannons!
-
1 hour ago, Neomaxim said:
I mean... even at 2000pts, overcoming his mobility is an issue. Adding Chronomantic Cogs can help a bit, but that's even more investment.
1 hour ago, Greven said:Go idoneth, then one factionmakes your allies use the tides of death table, run and charge etc.. plus for 1 cp u can make him run auto..
Ive ran him on a 1000 pts in a doubles GT, and it massacred just about everything 🥰
The idoneth option sounds fun and effective.
There are several options in the cities of sigmar book for magically assisting Gotrek.
Ghur battlemage from any city plus-minus cogs (easiest to cast in hallowheart obviously) will make him super-speedy but cogs is a lot of points in 1000pt list.
Flying Gotrek with wings of fire from hammerhal spell lore and enough command points to run 6' or re-roll charges whenever necessary. Healing from any city with enhanced lifeswarm and hallowheart, living city and phoenicium have direct healing spells too. The alternative to making gotrek faster is to make your enemies slower! Use endless spells, living city/phoenicium city spells, chamon/ulgu battlemages to achieve this. The other alternative to making Gotrek faster is to force your opponent to come to you. Hallowheart or greywater fastness seem like attractive options for this but it will be a bit difficult to achieve at 1000pt with gotrek being over half your army.
With a couple of battlemages you can really make the rest of a 1000pt army out of whatever battleline you already have or can get at an affordable price. Something like a Hallowheart list with:
Gotrek 520
Chamon Battlemage - general - sear wounds + whatever else you like 90pt
Ghur battlemage - adjutant - 2 spells you want 90pt
10xFreeguild guard - honoured retinue- battleline 80pt
10xLongbeards - 110pt - battleline
10xlongbeards - 110pt - battleline
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, Fabint said:
I didn't consider multiple Tribes as a possibility, would be super cool to see!
Seems likely it will be similar to the orruks in terms of set up. At least I hope it will be gut busters, bcr and joint mawtribes. Although if the ever winter is gone maybe solo BCR won't be a thing anymore. The ever winter did kind of define their identity in the lore and allegiance ability (such as it was) previously.
1 hour ago, Shankelton said:Ability seems neat. If your Ogor line breaks and flees the ironguts get a buff, looks like hit/wound rerolls of 1. So they should be pretty reliable when coupled with their increased to hit roll. Gulping attack is nice flavor! Like the idea of them snapping into a slimjim mid fight. Opens up the possibility maybe of a buff if they kill someone with it... though thats just my own conjecture!
Reroll 1s to save too. Banner makes more models flee failed battleshockand gives spell resistance on 6s. Nice to have if unreliable. On the other hand, Vs Hallowheart casting 12 spells a turn that will actually go off pretty often!
Looks like ironguts are the same solid damage dealers but a little more reliable. Plus whatever new abilities we get to play with
-
On 10/13/2019 at 3:30 PM, swarmofseals said:23 hours ago, FPC said:
I don’t really play in a competitive environment so drop count hardly factors into my considerations. And either way I already said, larger units are my preference.
Both fair points. My dispossessed army is not really designed to be highly competitive. Also, with the disappointing lack of any duardin battalions my drops are going to be sky high anyway. So I will have to plan around the lack of turn choice in the list design anyway. When the tempests eye allegiance ability is heavily weighted towards turn 1 that does make for some interesting list building puzzles.
-
3 hours ago, overtninja said:
Hallowheart is extremely counter-meta at the moment, where you never want to get into melee with the really filthy armies because of ASF and double pile-ins. Hallowheart also doesn't care at all how magical you are because of how strong their unbinds and casts are, and have the oomph to magic most things off the table.
I think Hallowheart will be in a similar place to Shootcast - you're going to obliterate many meta armies, but others will be able to run over and mangle your fragile line - pretty much anything that infiltrates should do well, because they present no targets until they are dealing lots of damage.
I agree. Hallowheart us undoubtedly very good. But if you want to include all the wizards and a couple of hundred points of endless spells then you will probably have to run a pretty low wound/model count army. There are important differences with the tzeentch endless spell list which has seen some success. The tzeentch list has mobility from change host, low drops so they can go first and block the board with spells before their opponents first turn, and then summons a lot of wounds worth of blues and brimstones. Hallowheart turns the casting up to 11 but it doesn't do those other things as well.
We'll have to see, but low drop alpha strike lists will probably counter most Hallowheart lists pretty well. As should armies with a lot of mortal wound protection (including other Co's lists) and khorne with endless prayers.
-
On 10/5/2019 at 7:02 PM, Not-not-kenny said:
Do you mean the old versions of those units? 'Cause all of those kits are still in production.
As for me, it'd be the old empire engineers (even the mechanical steed one) or the old bright mage, I mean just look at this madman!
In the meantime you can sculpt your own very similar flames. I found that it takes quite a long time but its not technically difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK_pVa1JUPE.
On 10/5/2019 at 10:55 PM, Barbossal said:Kislev.
Have you seen the Scibor dwarven bears? Can't use them at GW event obviously but they are amazing looking sculpts. They're not cheap but they're not more expensive than typical GW prices either.
https://www.sciborminiatures.com/en_,shop.php?group=139
They do one bear with a cannon which I'm very tempted by for a steam tank proxy.
On 10/6/2019 at 8:04 PM, Barbossal said:Thought a bit more about this - and aside from the entirey of Kislev, I think a few choice selections from Dogs of War could be a ton of fun.
Lumpin Croop's Fighting ****** & the Halfling Hotpot
Long Drong's Slayer Pirates
I second both of these.
-
3 hours ago, Arkhanist said:
Battalions are a complete and utter mess - see recent topic for discussion.
Oh, if only they keyworded battalions to make it clear who could and couldn't take them. (or reverted to AoS 1 style, which was much simpler)
Great response thank you. That definitely clarifies the lack of clarity! Looks like I might be asking an FAQ question for the first time.....
-
Has it be said anywhere if we can use compatible battalions from other grand alliance order books? I've been a bit confused about the issue since the beasts of chaos book.
Grudgebound warthrong is out due to the requirement to have an unforged which isn't in CoS and dispossessed aren't allies. It would be very tight on the unit number requirement but an aetherstrike force or iron sky squadron might be a fun inclusion. I suppose the same would also go for any of the stormcast battalions but they're not duardin so I'm less interested!
28 minutes ago, FPC said:Nah just 30 more points, 480 to 450. Either way the big takeaway is...either unit is scary!
27 minutes ago, Rahatlin said:Yea i was sure they have 30units discount aswell but checked book and they dont 😕
Shots come before attacks and if he walk instead of charge means you have 1 more turn of shooting.
But yea - they are 80 pts more for 30 so 😕
1 minute ago, Rivener said:You can also grumble irondrakes to let them reroll wound rolls of 1.
I've been thinking irondrakes would be better in 10 man units so you can get more grudgehammer torpedoes for monster sniping mini-cannons on. Less efficient for runelord -1 rend buff, but hawk-eyed, hurricanum and longbeard buffs are all AOE so multiple units isn't a problem there. Is there something I'm missing?
On 10/8/2019 at 4:26 PM, Ruvich said:anyone seeing toys from the Kharadron Overlords, like Ironclads/Gunhaulers in a CoS army? As of right now, I am not very sure if I want to use one of those in a possible CoS army of mine..but damn, the ironclad is so beautiful. x.x
Ironclad buffed by a lord Ordinator with hawk-eyed and a hurricanum is as much righteous duardin firepower as you are going to get out of one. Plus you can have proper chaff units for protection. Might as well give it a go and see how it works out!
-
2
-
Tempest Eye Discussion
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
Realistically I'm hoping for an ironclad next Christmas, I may just about have finished painting my other dispossessed and KO by then. However, once its done I will have a hawk-eyed KO general waving a zephyrite banner from the prow of his ironclad as he, and his trusty crew, drop down from the sky, shoot something to hell and then charge into glorious combat!
One a more tactically sound note, Arkanauts just became a great cheap screen for a dwarven gun-line tempests eye list. No need for beardless humans any more and they might occasionally get to shoot something important. For me, irondrakes are clear favourites over thunderers now in CoS. The thunderers are a bit more durable point for point which is nice, but their damage output is definitely less without access to old chemist +1 shot, whilst irondrakes still get -1 rend from runesmiths or longbeard re-rolls. Although I do already own irondrakes and have them painted, so I'm not exactly unbiased......
Yeah, KO have definitely moved to be more ship focussed. Which is a buff to fun if not necessarily effectiveness. I also feel like both types of balloon boys will be less melee focussed and more of a mobile gun platform with their ranged options. They can still zoom across the table and shoot whatever you need to die and the old chemist buff didn't work that well on them anyway. Throw them into melee and they will just get punched to death by some ogors who don't give a ****** about their 1A -2 rend d3 damage.