Sumanye
-
Posts
100 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Gallery
Store
Downloads
Blogs
Events
Posts posted by Sumanye
-
-
On 3/5/2020 at 3:00 AM, Maserdom said:
I'll jump into the thread for a few questions!
Coming from 40k and its (now more than ever) deranged situation with rules bloat and power creep off the charts, I have started playing AoS in search of a breath of fresh air.
I willfully chose a mid tier army (Gloomspite Gitz, squigs-only variant) in order to play at 1000-1500 points max and enjoy the game once again, but the 1000 points variant of the list has already been painted and the subsequent purchases laid out. Avoiding boredom is a priority and, since AoS'gorgeous models make it much easier (for me, at lòeast) to speed paint miniatures, I'd like to start a second army.
As you may imagine, my eyes instantly fell on the Disciples of Tzeentch, especially since I already wanted to build a Thousand Sons army but never got around to.
From what I gathered, the DoT are a mid-high tier army with the potential of being high tier plus, which would be useful for the more... competitive matches at my LGS. I absolutely love the idea of spamming magic and summoning little guys around, but the Guild of Summoners coven seems to be the overpowered choice here, especially in 1000 points games (where a Lord of Change turn two is probably turbo-broken and only suitable for small tournaments).
Could you please, A) rate the following Guild of Summoners list and B) suggest a less OP list with the Pyrofane Cult?
I'd rather get the Kairic Acolytes than the Tzaangors since my squigs are enough for a melee playstyle, while the acolytes defending the mages and throwing fireballs require a different strategy. Since the Acolytes will be already there, and the Pyrofane is tied to them (and it looks like a mid-tier choice, since Guild of SUmmoners and Chagehost are the obvious cheesy choices), I would be saving quite a bit of money!
Guild of Summoners List:
- Gaunt Summoner
- The Blue Scribes
- Curseling
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
- 10x Kairic Acolytes
Total: 920/1000 and 80 available points for endless spells. Maybe I could leave out a group of acolytes (who are just there to maximize spell casts) and throw in an Ogroid Thaumaturge to defend my mages against charges, but I 'm not sure if 30 meat shields would be enough).
The plan is to wait in my starting zone for the first turn (which I'll always pass), cast as much as possible hoping for a first turn Lord of Change, and then run to the objectives on turn 2 once the enemy has been softened with fireballs.
Any help will be greatly appreciated! The local shop has declared a glorious -25% sale, so my wallet is ready to splurge on a few boxes while it lasts!
I don't think this list is anywhere near as OP as you think it is and I wouldn't worry about playing it in a casual setting. Your chance of getting a LoC turn 1 with only 9 casts is far from guaranteed and if you wait to summon turn 2, you won't be casting with the LoC until turn 3. At that point, your free LoC isn't really that big of a deal anymore. Keep in mind, acolytes are only wizards when they have 9+ models. An opponent could very easily disable 4 of your spell casts per turn with minimal effort. It's a fun list, and I'd only recommend to swap the cursling for changeling or change caster or really any other wizard. Fun list, but not OP. I say play it to your heart's content.
-
I'm personally not a fan of the ahriman fate master proxy. He's too big for a 32mm base and it just looks janky. Also, Ahriman is so iconic in 40k, it's also a little immersion breaking imo. If you feel the same, here is what I did. I made my fate master with a chaos sorcerer lord body, new chaos warrior helmet, Enlightened Aviarch spear, disc made from extra chariot parts, and a shield from a tzaangor.
-
1
-
-
19 hours ago, The World Tree said:
Yes, he clearly shold be summoning 10 blue horrors rather than pinks. That would make him a good but not insane choice.
This is what I thought should happen. However, if this change is made I think his points should come down considerably as well. 180 pts for foot and 200 for disc seems more reasonable. That's 20 more points for a foot GS compared to before the book, which when you factor in the spell nerf and the added summoning (not to mention a general point discount for Tzeentch wizards), 180 seems about right. At 180, you're paying a premium on a double cast wizard for this book with a 6+ save, but he has a free unit and a strong signature spell.
-
9 minutes ago, NJohansson said:
Both GS have the STD keyword so both can cast the rift spell (or any other STD spells. As to how good he is - if you don’t go the Changehost route he is really a steal for 240-260 points. Even with one more battle line he is still a 40 point hero that can cast two spells. Not to mention the forward deployment of his summoned unit and that he provides the locus bonus.
I mean sure he is great, but he’s not a must, even without changehost.
-
6 hours ago, Worm said:
One question.
I am looking at the GAUNT SUMMONER and he is a MUST have in a list, for only 240points or 260point on disc, you get level 2 caster that can summon a unit of 10x Pink Horrors.
I am missing something here as this is just to good, basicly you get level 2 caster for 40points?
So what is wrong here, can i have 2 of them and summon 2x 10 Pinks???
Definitely not a must have. I think the downside is that although, yes do get a 200pt pink unit and a 40pt 2 cast wizard, the GS doesn't fill changehost and the 200 pt pinks don't fill your battleline. So you are still going to have to buy another battleline you wouldn't otherwise need if you just paid 200 pts for pinks, and you'll need to buy another unit for your changehost, and your changehost won't be a 1 drop.
The flying GS can cast darkfire, so if you are building that into your list, he's obviously essential. Outside of that, I hardly consider GS a must personally.
-
4 hours ago, NJohansson said:
The rules for covens state that all Tzeentch units in the army gets the keyword (not a choice but automatically) so I would assume yes - although there is no FAQ (as far as I know) that states it 100 percent.
This is covered in the AoS core rules FAQ, and indeed the answer is yes.
-
3 minutes ago, Paniere said:
so, if i m getting it straight, if my GS on disk gets one rend 1 wound in melee, he will not be able to save it using DD (since his 6+save gets modified by rend but not by the +2 from disk)?
Correct
-
1
-
1
-
-
New Tzeentch FAQ up. DD always count as unmodified and cannot be rerolled. Exceptions for battleshock and saves are for modifications only, so Pink Horrors can still use a 1DD for battleshock.
-
2
-
2
-
-
8 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:
So actually I would have certainly thought it was interpretation 1, but the command ability says the unit's ability, not the roll for that model. They probably actually mean the first interpretation, just based on how powerful the latter interpretation would be. However, for an event that I was TO'ing at, I would rule in favor of interpretation 2 as written. I would definitely send in for an FAQ as although the language isn't ambiguous, it has the tried and true feeling of "this is too good to be true and sounds like GW not understanding what words mean".
It's taken me many years of playing both 40k and AoS competitively for that particular spidey sense to be tuned, but I feel pretty confident that GW intends the first interpretation, to the point where I could see a TO saying "we're going to play it Rules As Intended and use interpretation 1"
I agree they probably meant interpretation 1, but I disagree it’s interpretation 2 as written as it says “roll” singular not plural. It would need to say “add 1 to the dice rolls made for that unit’s Change-gift ability.” to make it interpretation 2 in my opinion.
But that’s not my point; people have different reads and I’m not super interested in hearing people’s rules lawyering as I’m sure they aren’t in hearing mine. My point is, this conversation exists and the wording is definitely ambiguous.
-
11 minutes ago, Maximum said:
Question, but if I play 1 from the DD, on the horrors, do I recover them from the d6 dead horrors?
Short answer, nobody knows and it needs a FAQ. I’m playing it yes, because that’s how I read the rules, but I would be prepared to discuss it with anyone you play. A tournament would have their own official ruling, so ultimately this only matters for causal games, so just go with what you think is right and sort it out with your opponent by rolling a dice if they disagree.
-
2
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, Sacrednikki89 said:
Can someone clear up some rules for me?
Say Gift-change or similar abilities where you can add X amount of models to a unit, do restrictions happen straight away or do they wait for minimum unit size clumps?
Say you got 20 x Tzaangors, max Greatblades and max Mutants, you kill stuff with Tzaangor Shaman's spell, add some Tzaangors, can you add them as Mutants or Greatblades or must you choose something far more generic and then say #24 and #25 can be greatblades?You have to follow the restrictions of 2 in every 5. #25 and #26 can be greatblades and then #30 and #31 could be greatblades. #24 doesn’t get you anything because you don’t have 5 extra Tzaangors at that point, so has to be #25 and #26. In this scenario, your mutants would probably be #27 and #32 as greatblades are more important.
-
2 hours ago, Sacrednikki89 said:
I'm 1910/2000 in a Cult of the Transient Form coven, with Alter-kin and Arcanite cabal, would a Beastlord (90 points) do anything for me or should I get an extra CP?
Probably not. I assume you have a Tzaangor Shaman, and I would spend those points on Wildfire Taurus if you haven’t already
-
7 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
The Sigil and the Tome are both good. The Simulacrum is a liability unless you are running a Lord of Change.
True the Simulacrum is a liability, but I think part of the intention of this spell is to use it as a trap and not dispel it. Note that this spell can't move super far and hurts the closest unit within 6" even if that unit is friendly. Say there is an odd number of predatory endless spells out and you are at the bottom of the turn, you can cast Simulacrum and potentially position it in such a way that your opponent can't hurt you with it, but if they don't pick to move it, you could obliterate one of their wizards if you choose to move it. Now your opponent must choose to move a spell that doesn't help them, giving you an extra beneficial predatory endless spell move or eat potentially serious damage on a wizard. It's even possible that you could place it such that your opponent has no way to move Simulacrum without hurting their own units.
Is this super worth the points and risk? Probably not. But this spell is the most Tzeentch spell there is and I really like the design.
-
1
-
-
9 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
If you stack 2 to-hit debuffs onto the threatening units it’s pretty safe to do Guided By the Past. Loss of Fold Reality is not nearly the deathblow people assume it to be.
Good point!
-
5 hours ago, Jackroks981 said:
So folks what’s our thoughts on Tzaangors at the moment? I’ve been running them exclusively for the past couple of years now, both as beasts and Tzeentch, never found them terribly competitive due to the unreliability of 4s to hit, very low bravery and requiring nearby heroes to buff them. With what amounts to a points hike thanks to the horde discount disappearing and enlightened on disc going up, do you think they’ve gained enough tools to get the extra edge they need so desperately? What are you planning on running with Tzaangors going forward? I’d love to do a coven battalion but the buy in cost units wise is through the roof and leaves me with one hero essentially!
Tzaangors have 2 tools worth mentioning in this book imo. Fatemaster and Reckless Abandon. Tzaangor attack profiles are hot garbage (not just the stats, but a unit of shield Tzaangors needs to make 5 separate attack rolls each combat!!) and so the only thing you care about is Savage Greatblades. This means the optimal unit of Tzaangors to run is 20. At 20 you can get 8 Greatblades (1 of which is the twistbray) in combat and probably all 4 Mutants and the rest stand in the back with shields and soak up wounds. Obviously you get them into combat if you can, but the point is, the 8 Greatblades and 4 Mutants are the unit and the rest are wounds to keep those Greatblades and Mutants at +1 attack. So, 10 Tzaangors has too few Greatblades and will easily lose +1 attack and 30 Tzaangors has no horde bonus and likely won't reliably get all 4 extra Greatblades into combat making them a waste points wise, though if you think you can, it could be worth it.
My calculations assume a 4+ save and a unit of 20 Tzaangors. If you give Tzaangors the Fatemaster buff (which Fatemaster also activates Destined Mayhem) and Reckless Abandon, you are looking at an average of 26.8 damage vs 9.22 damage unbuffed. So these buffs nearly triple Tzaangor damage. Now it seems natural to compare to 6 Enlightened (since they cost the same) who achieve 30.17 damages under the same conditions (Fatemaster and Reckless Abandon) vs 17.26 unbuffed. Enlightened squeeze out like 3 more damage if they bring a Shaman too (read: Shaman is a waste if you take a Fastemaster for your Enlightened). Now each have their advantages; Tzaangor are 40 wounds with a 6++ with run and charge and fill a battleline, but Enlightened have 16" move and fly. Note I also assumed that Enlightened do not try to trigger Guided by the Past, since I do not feel that is really optimal especially with a Fatemaster already giving rerolls and loss of fold reality. Also note, Arcane Suggestion can increase damage further, though I do not include it because it is less straight forward how one would reliably pull it off for multiple reasons.
One final comparison is Tzaangor Skyfires with a Shaman. Without Fatemaster or Reckless Abandon, but with Shaman and shooting and charge on their turn, Skyfires can achieve 18.74 damage, slightly higher than Enlightened under the same conditions (though for 20 points more). In my mind, this is the ideal way to run Tzaangors. Take a unit of 20 Tzaangors with a Fatemaster and 6 Skyfires with a Shaman. These 2 units now do not share buffs and both perform rather well and the Shaman can even help heal the Tzaangors if he is close. You can also run them in Alter-Kin coven with Acolytes to save on drops. Alter-Kin isn't great, but it is 1/6 chance to do d3 MW and it also triggers in your opponents charge phase as well (so twice per round per unit stuck in combat with your Tzaangors). For me, I'm looking at running this setup in Guild of Summoners (after I finish building and painting my second LoC) giving the Fatemaster the Brimstone familiar to eliminate battleshock on my Tzaangors. Arcanites are not the best this book has and neither are Tzaangors, but I'm a Tzaangor enthusiast and plan to play them anyway.
-
1
-
-
Yeah, nothing the AoS community says on FB matters. They have been wrong plenty of times in the past.
-
1 hour ago, NJohansson said:
I would say that the Prince is more or less a waste of points in Tzeentch regardless. If you need a semi beater - better to take the Sorcerer on Manticore (who is also a caster with a great spell and has a good ability) or Be’lakor who is equally good in combat as the prince as well as a 2 spell caster with one of the best abilities in the game (IMHO). Yes the prince is cheaper but only marginally so.
I wouldn't say he is a waste of points, but maybe that there is just better options. ASF and a 3+ save is not nothing, so I don't think he should automatically get zero consideration. Couple points on the Daemon Prince,, he actually does more damage than Be'lakor if he charges and has a sword. Since Be'lakor is an ally, his 2 spells mean a lot less and makes him a bit less auto-include over a basic prince. Lastly, the Sorcerer on Manticore is not a Daemon and that could matter depending on army composition.
All in all, yes the prince is the weakest choice even if he is cheaper, but I wouldn't say he is a waste and he could be fun to play. Here is a cool build for him, give him the Warpfire blade and hit him with Arcane Transformation and maybe even Reckless Abandon (depending on whether you have a better unit to use it on). Now he is ASF, does 6 attacks with his blade and does 4 MW on a 6. A mini Gristlegore Ghoul King.
-
1 minute ago, GeneralZero said:
Back to destiny dice: Do I have to declare that I use one (or more) DD BEFORE rolling something or after seeing the dice rolls (and replace the failed ones by a DD)?
You use destiny dice instead of a roll.
-
1
-
-
For Mastery of Magic, to me it isn’t clear why they arrived at the conclusion that you can’t change a DD with a LoC. In my view, Mastery of Magic is neither a modification nor a re-roll, and since GW didn’t comment on the reasoning behind the ruling, it seems impossible to draw conclusions for other rules such as Mass Conjuration.
-
2 minutes ago, Daramiz said:
So does the ruling on LoC being unable to change DD rolls mean that Mastery of Magic is officially a modifier? In that case, can Mastery of Magic no longer be used to complete the Mass Conjuration agenda?
Good question. I guess not, as I don't see a different interpretation.
-
Well, for sure everyone should submit a rules question about the DD ruling to AOSFAQ@gwplc.com
Hopefully we get a quick reply and save ourselves from heated debates at the table
-
I agree the wording on the DD change is poor. But my read is this...
The rules say all DD are unmodified and can't be modified or rerolled with 2 exceptions. Then it explains what those exceptions are. Those exceptions do not mention a change to the "counts as unmodified roll" or the "can't be rerolled". So my read is, BS and save DD are unmodified and can't be rerolled, but they are modified by models slain and rend as normal.
So if you spent DD on your LoC with +1 save Command Trait to save a rend -1 attack, you would need to spend a 5 DD and your opponent could not make you reroll the save.
-
Just now, Daramiz said:
I don't think this is necessarily true. Gaunt summoner uses the word summon and has nothing to do with the battletome's summoning table.
True! The guild of summoners says summon using Fate points, and that is explained under "From the crystal Labyrinth". If anything, this is what I'm trying to say, the word summon is not defined without context in AoS. Either way, the Designer Commentary says you can't summon Kairos with Fate Points, and even if someone wants to try and be "that guy" with summoning rules, ultimately Guild of Summoners ability uses fate points and Kairos can't be summoned.
-
1 minute ago, BillyOcean said:
It wasn't a change to the generic summon table, where it is listed as (unit name) Lord of Change. But its a change to the Guild of Summoners, where it is stated that for 9 fate poimnts they can summon (keyword) LORD OF CHANGE.
I suppose it could be argued that Guild can still summon Kairos because specific overwrites generic and Guild's rule is more specific than the regular summon table. But, I feel like thats reaching quite a bit, and it's going to be difficult to convince opponents of. I prefer to read the FAQ as a blanket ban on summoning Kairos, including in Guild, and plan to play it that way.
The definition of summoning is choosing a model off the summoning table. There is no general rule in AoS that defines what summoning is. For Tzeentch, summoning comes from the summon table as explained in the Battletome under "From the Crystal Labyrinth" where it clearly defines what summoning is and how it works, and Kairos isn't on that table. The GoS ability may use the LoC keyword, but it doesn't give you permission to bypass the table and it doesn't change the rules on how summoning works.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
Oh yeah, that is a good catch. Not sure why I thought it was 32mm. Well, I guess I need to rebase mine!