NJohansson
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Posts posted by NJohansson
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4 hours ago, mmimzie said:
1. all the mortal wounds adds up to a decent unit and it's not about clearing out whole, and you have 30 flamers between the whole army you have like 1.5 big killy unit power. The difference is you can target down and kill key characters.
It’s probably late and I am missing something, but where did you get the 30 flamers (or do you mean that the spell power of the character is equal to approx 30 flamers)? If so - really interested in the comparison.
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17 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:
Eh, I’ve used the Thaumaturge a lot and he dies really quickly with his 5+ save and no shrug.
And the Std one has a 4+ no shrug - in my experience both die to anything remotely dedicated to killing them. But the Thaumaturge does (surprisingly) more damage in melee, has a d6 mortal wound spell which also heals for the same amount and it can dispel and cast spells for 20 points more. I am not saying that either is a great model (I rarely use any Ogroid in an army) but if taking one the Thaumaturge wins out hands down every time (IMHO).
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38 minutes ago, Phasteon said:
See? You admit its easier to build a list if powerlevel is your only concern, thats basically my point in saying its easymode.
I‘m probably more sad about the fact that competitive play is very narrow–minded, while narrative focused lists are far more creative and still can be played competitively.
This should probable be in another thread - since this is about positive feedback but this type of comments really puzzles me. There are a lot of competitive players that do care about narrative (like myself) - I have read dozens of books from the black library, I own the majority of army books since the Lost and the Damned and I do so because I have always loved the story/narrative. But although I name every character and my armies always have a story to them I still enjoy playing with points against equally competitive armies. If Kairos is not the general of my army, I can easily explain it through that he has been summoned by the Gaunt Summoner or Sorcerer in charge of the Coven or a dozen other possible narrative stories. It is a game where you get to use your imagination and saying that X should be the general because of Y reason is simply your interpretation of fluff in a way that is not really supported by the game - just read Architect of Faith for example, it gives a great example when a mighty character holds a very low key profile.
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10 minutes ago, simakover said:
Allegiance: Tzeentch
Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Mortal Realm: Chamon
LEADERS
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- General
- Command Trait:- Prophet of the Ostensible
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Ritual Dagger
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner (240)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
Be'Lakor (240)
UNITS
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
ENDLESS SPELLS
Balewind Vortex (40)
Darkfire Daemonrift (50)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 75Want to try this list from tempest2020, but im dont understand how better change spells on wizards?
Why kairos use foldreality, but not a DMG spell?
How make first moves, place units? Cause it is not one drop so may be defensive placement better then aggressive
Don’t forget that Kairos now all friendly spells. That, his own damage spell and all the Endless will most likely result in that if necessary Kairos can dish out a lot of hurt if needed.
As to deployment and movements- really up to the mission and what you are up against. You will most likely need to set up solid screens with pinks/acolytes if up against something that can threaten you first turn - if not you will probably need to plan for getting first turn (move up and park on objectives - de-buff and buff as appropriate and summon the first LoC turn 1).
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1 hour ago, Phasteon said:
One point I agree on though:
– If you play a named character like Nagash, Morathi they must be your general.
I cringe everytime when someone even plays characters that have different standing in the armies hierarchy and make the lower one their general. And its always because of some trait / conditional battleline shenanigans that people spit on the background of the army.
It kind of makes games less enjoyable for me if people dont respect their characters and dont make their highest ranking Hero their general.
Sadly this is a thing people must do themselves as GW cant write a priority list of generals in every battletome, maybe its just me and people generally have no problem with that. But I find it very hard to imagine a reason why a battlemage (for example) would be the general of a freeguild army and not the character that has literally „general“ in his warscroll name (Freeguild general).
Fluff and the actual game is two different beasts. From a fluff perspective - Archaon dying on the battlefield by a goblin arrow is much worse than the general being a random sorcerer who Archaon gave command to test the sorcerers ability under Archeons stern gaze (you can validate anything by fluff).
Removing named characters from matched play will remove fantastic models from those of us who both enjoy collecting beautiful centerpieces and playing matched games (I have never played a purely narrative game in close to 30 years of being in this hobby). On the other hand - giving Archy, Nagash and Gotrek access to artifacts and command abilities (as suggested in other places of this thread) will create a balancing problem of Herohammer (there was a time when your armies were a couple of heroes with fly high and units for roadkills) proportions.
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42 minutes ago, MitGas said:
He's a bit too small for a DP I guess but he's such a fantastic model that nobody should mind. And unlike the thaumaturge this one has pretty meh rules IMO.
The Thaumaturge seems to be strictly better at everything for just 20 points more and is a wizard with a good spell. So I do not see any reason to use the mundane Ogroid as anything else but a count as Thaumaturge (if one really likes and want to use the particular model).
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5 hours ago, Overread said:
Thing is there will be other factions that used ranged weapons. Plus you can bet one reason many armies don't have many ranged weapons is purely because they are small sized armies. As GW expands those armies you can bet they'll get more models and more options and a good number will be ranged. I can see range growing over time not lessening. As a result good quality detailed terrain rules that allow for cover are going to be critical to avoid the problem taht 40K has where a powerful ranged force can shut down close combat armies - which results in GW typically making close combat armies that can hit the opponent in one single turn - which tends to take a lot of the fun out of the game for both sides.
Just take a look at the new Disciples of Tzeentch - the amount of strong shooting that they can bring is on a 40K level. Also people forget that spells are also part of the game and fundamentally both are ranged attacks. I think you either need cover/LOS rules or you need toned down shooting - otherwise AoS will end up to close to 40K for my liking.
Another thing that bothers me with the lack of proper terrain mechanics is that it results in that GW has started to push terain that does weird things (damages units, grants buffs etc.) which feels like a poor solution and complicates the game instead of just fixing the inherent problem that hills, forests, rivers etc have no real meaning in the game.
Anyhow - love the game so this is my wish list not “OMG the world is ending” type of complain.
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All in all - great progress and the game is in a great state. Saying that, terrain, cover and Line of Sight rules should be drastically changed. Terrain should matter - LOS should be done Warmahordes style (on a base by base case and not can my model see your spear) and cover should be different if you are hiding behind a castle wall or behind a fence.
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2 hours ago, Bloodmoon said:
Ensorcelled weapons in Sixth circle. They're the best choice unless you really really hate Mortek and nothing else in the game, in which case take Fellspears.
9 out 10 times the Sixth Circle is my preferred one. But sometimes flight (8 Circle) is really game changing... Getting blocked by Endless Spells/other models can really mess with your plans sometimes.
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3 hours ago, Sumanye said:
Obviously, people aren’t taking scribes or host duplicitious for every list. One other thing about the tome is it extends your spell casting range
For the same cost you can get 1 extra cast (1 more cast is almost always better than Reroll) and even more extended spell casting range through Vortex. For 10 - 20 points more you get access to really good damage spells with added utility. The spell you get only damages on 3+ (so the actual spell you get is far worst point for point than any of the 50 points and/or 30 points spells). To add insult to injury you get damage on double 1 an 6. The Double one can be a nice trade off but double 6 is almost always successful regardless (few people will try to dispel a 12.
To summarize - point for points there are far better endless spells (IMHO).
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20 hours ago, mmimzie said:
Which is why the person who did run congflag had this list
This makes me sad to see. I really hope that it is just a faze and that more “regular” lists will be the norm. I am not saying that it is unbeatable (it definitely is) but this list can really destroy any form of positive playing experience (but it is a tournament so not judging). Feels more 40K than AoS though.
Anyhow with a list like this -1 rend is defiantly very strong. On the other hand -1 against shooting is probably more important if going against the same gunline:):):).
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5 hours ago, simakover said:
but why tome? its not looks like good spell, thats the point to summon it?
This is puzzling me as well. Feels like there are many much better Endless Spells and even Arcane Bolt is a better spell than the one the tome let’s you cast.
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1 hour ago, mmimzie said:
Hey it's great input @NJohansson
However, i agree with @Xyxel, but also in a tournament setting that shooting -1 to hit only matter when you get matched against shooting armies. You can go 5 round in a tournament where 50% of all the armies are shooting and not meet a single shooting list. Or at best the -1 to hit only matters 50% of the time, and even against shooting armies many like bone reapers or cities have large parts of the army that aren't shoot based. So in the games where it matters it might only matter for a fraction of the damage coming your way.
For instance look at gain's games in this event. He went against only 2 real shoot threats. Bonenreapers with 2 crawlers, and skaven with 3 ratlings and 2 warp lightning cannons. The crawlers were 400pts out of 1600pts. While a big threat for sure the -1 to hit is only a small decrease in damage against a fractions a 4th of the enemy army. While, the -1 to hit does nothing against the warp lightning cannons and the ratlings where only 240pts worth of models.
The rend matters in every single game. Similarly the host has its save bonus and reroll spell cast matter in every game, and guild has the whole coven matter in every game.
So the real reason to take conflag is going to be that rend and the flamers as battle line. As such when taking eternal conflagration I really refommend only using it if you wanna run any combination of 2 or more of 6 flamers and/or 20 horrors as that's where you'll get the most bang for your buck. Otherwise, your list might be better being something else.
TLDR: So while the -1 to hit is definitely not nothing. The the rend is why you take the conflgration. As it's the one element you can rely on and will have the most impact.
Interesting points - not sure I agree entirely though.:) -1 rend is very powerful (pending on which units you use naturally) and the more flamers and horrors the more vital it becomes.
However -1 against shooting which becomes -2 for most heroes (-3 if needed by spells) results in that it is very hard to surgically remove my casters from +18” away (the LoC/destiny dice handles spells very well). This results in that I can be more aggressive with my heroes and in my experience - if most of my heroes are alive at the end of the game I am usually winning the attrition/objective game. Naturally this only applies 50% of all games (at best) but pure close combat armies are generally not my biggest fear (there are always exception - but my lists/play style tend to favor said matchups) so the -1 additional modifier against shooting helps me against my worst matchups - while the -1 additional rend helps with damage, but that was never my biggest concern with all mortal wounds that I can deliver through spells.
One of the most used artifact for Tzeentch (prior to the Battletome) was The Gryp-Feather Charm and With the Locus we now have it within 12” of the LOC so 30” radius which is absolutely amazing.
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3 hours ago, mmimzie said:
Eternal conflag gives you only an extra -1 rend against most armies in the meta right now. Honestly, that's not good enough in my opinion unless you are going heavy on the flamers.
Not trying to argue which is better (to early to say IMHO and both have strong mechanics) but to me the rend is not as critical as the 12” -1 to hit with missile weapons bubble. That is the real strength of the Eternal Conf - especially with all the shooting entering the meta right now.
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45 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:
So I'm very interested in playing Pyrofane Cult, Kairics are some of my fav models in the Tzeentch line. So what would an "ideal" pyrofane list look like? I've got this right now:
Allegiance: Tzeentch Changecult: Pyrofane Leaders: Lord of Change (380) (General) - Shrouded in Unnatural Flame - Chainfire Amulet - Spell TBD Magister on Disc (140) Tzaangor Shaman (150) Curseling (160) Units: 5x10 Kairic Acolytes (500) 1x6 Tzaangor Skyfires (400) 1x3 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs (180) Endless Spells: Chronomantic Cogs (80)Probably not optimal, but it's what I've come up with so far. The Curseling was originally an Ogroid Thaumaturge with Paradoxical Shield if I could fit a battalion in.
Since you already have 3 Enlightened you should look to add the Wytchfire Coven Battalion. 1 unit of 30 Acolytes (instead of 5 of 10). Or maybe 2x20 and 1x10 (pending on preferences). Would probably drop the magister to get the points.
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17 minutes ago, iogaa said:
He only picked them because they're the cheapest battleline he could take (and invoked almost as many pinks T1), his list is mostly daemon (plus archaon).
I was asking about the viability of a list using acolytes and/or tzaangors as the backbone of an army.
Pyrofane Cult and Witchfire Coven seems really strong on paper. Could be the simple fact that people do not have 60+ Acolytes painted and ready yet.
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1 hour ago, simakover said:
how many LoC we needed now? im have one, but with guild of summoners looks like its not enought
Personally I start with Kairos and have 1 LOC for summoning. For maximum efficiency you need 2 more than you start with (you will rarely Summon a 3ed) but I have noticed that just one extra is enough for most games - recycling the LOC that you summon is good enough for casual play.
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Fluff wise - Be’lakor was the only Undivided DP. After him (or rather after he tried to become mightier than the Gods themself) there has not been any Undivided DP. Mechanically it really is bad that you can not keep the same mark as before (from a buffing/aura perspective) but story vise Undivided DP don’t make any sense at all (as the lore is currently).
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So after tonight I have now played with the Guild of Summoners 7 times. While very fun to summon a Lord of Change turn 1 and a second one turn 2 (at the latest turn 3) I am starting to feel that it is not as strong as other Covens have the potential to be due to the following:
1) Forced to take lackluster artifact/traits.
2) No summoning (realistically) after the second LoC. Compared to a normal list where I would be able to summon 10 Blues every round (if lucky maybe even 10 Pinks) you give up a lot both in damage, wounds and board/objective control in the long run.
3) Realistically past turn 3 regular summoning becomes better so you are basically playing handicapping yourself while not getting any really good bonuses from the Coven (compared to the other alternatives).
Anyone else had the same experience or am I missing something?
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Internal balance and losing games are different things. The big problem in this thread IMHO is that a lot of people has the attitude of “I should be able to play and win with any model that I like” - that is chess level of balance, it won’t happen. I have played Malifaux, Warmahordes, Infinity, Starwars and a dozen other army based war games - unless the units are identical there are always some units more point efficient than others. What we can hope for is a semi balance between armies - we are not there yet but it is not as bad as it used to be.
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3 hours ago, Sumanye said:
Probably because he think flamers are cool, but at the same time he still likes having friends 😛
Yes part of it. Moreover it feels like everyone is focusing on Changehost. I think it will be erated sooner or later and do not like playing the exact same as everyone else. Moreover I feel that there are a lot of army’s that will just get slaughtered by the Changehost/flamer/horror combo and I prefer to play a game and not just walk over my opponent (tournament setting is something else and I would probably gravitate towards a more optimal build).
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I have been in this hobby for almost 30 years now and we still have the same arguments over and over.
FWIW - the balance between army books has been improved greatly, GW actually do respond/make balancing attempts each and every year (there was a time when you had to just wait a couple of years for a new book) and the overall customer/community care/support has been greatly increased the last couple of years.
Saying all that - internal balancing (unit on unit) is still bad but one ought to play chess if you really strive for absolute balance. The STD book has some viable units/builds and some abysmal - the same goes for the majority of army books. If you play casual you have loads of variety - if you want tournament level you need to focus on the obviously good parts.
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Trying something non Changehost - while still flamer based:
Eternal Conflagration
Lord of Change, General, Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch, Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes
4 units of Flamers of Tzeentch x 3
2 units of Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch x1
Battalion - Warpflame Host
Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh
Purple Sun of Shyish
The Burning Head
Total 1990pts
5 drops.
Biggest question is if I should drop 1 unit of flamers/and or some Endless Spells for some screens (the army is really vulnerable to A-strikes)?
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7 hours ago, Gwendar said:
EDIT: Just out of curiosity, I ran the numbers against 9 Flamers + Exalted (shooting at <10 models, no Aura or RR's) and the combined damage is about 3 less on average for 60 points less. This is assuming you just calculate the Flamer shooting as I don't think you will ever want them in melee unlike Skyfires. Tradeoffs of course being a less versatile unit, less wounds\worse save, lack of mortals and 27" threat range opposed to 40".
One thing to take into consideration is that the Skyfires are not battleline - while the flamers most probably are. Moreover the flamers are (as mentioned) part of the Changehost, so point efficiency is probably with the flamers when building the whole list.
AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted · Edited by NJohansson
RAW you most certainly can:
Compare to the regular summoning text where it is said “Lord of Change”. Kairos is not a Lord of Change but he most certainly has the LORD OF CHANGE key word.
very nice catch mmimzie - I missed it completely and will definitely try this.