Mark Williams
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Posts posted by Mark Williams
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37 minutes ago, PJetski said:
It's not just about Anvilstrike and it's not just about shooting. You can screen with disposable units and entirely avoid 2" attacks with proper positioning, then counterattack with a unit 3" away. It doesn't entirely avoid 3" attacks (unless you have an ability to pile in from further away) but it usually does enough to get the job done.
You don't even have to counterattack in the same turn - lose a disposable unit to hold them in place then counterattack in the next turn. Every army that messes with activations has some kind of other limitation you can play around.
Every relevant army can bring some amount of shooting, magic, positioning/combat tricks to deal with key units that fight first. If you are playing a list with no way to counter units that fight first then you are not playing a good enough list, or you are playing an army that desperately needs an update (like Ironjawz). You wouldn't play an army with zero unbinding in a wizard meta...
The issue I've found with Feeding Frenzy is that even when I put a unit behind my screen, they use the 3" pile in in such a way that they get 6" penetration over the course of two pile-ins. They can generally out maneuver me in some way by hitting my screen from the side and then pivoting around. Unless my screen is much larger than the unit behind them, the screen basically doesn't work. I'd point to the birds as an example of this, where they are only 3 models and just end up being a speed bump to this weird sort of 6" pivot move that sees their monster pull off a weird 12"-18" "charge" in multiple stages.
I mean you can pull off similar stuff with Evocators and their 3" shock attack, but it gets pretty nasty with other armies.
Personally, I'm finding that against certain armies, combat is just simply a total lost cause for me, but shooting presents its own problems and is probably worse in the end, which leaves me with making the best assault with a little bit of shooting backup army that I can make, and then I just have to accept that certain armies are going to beat me and there's nothing I can really do about it. Take my 3/5 wins and bow.
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27 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
Im not sure how disposable screens help. IF youre shooting then sure absolutely. If youre not a shooting army like say Khorne, is there any recourse here? Like screen or not Tgheist has a 2'' and 3'' range for the maw IIRC
I think PJetski's context is generally always from the angle of playing Anvilstrike. I could be wrong, but I've made that mistake before when replying to him.
I believe the idea is throwing some disposable screen in front of enough shooting firepower to pose a threat that is so immediate that any combat oriented army will be forced to try to get through it, or end up losing the game due to having all of its important models removed from the table.
9 longstrikes shooting twice per turn will generally speaking remove 2 dragons a turn. For some FEC players, that's potentially their entire list, minus some wimpy trash units that won't pose much of a threat late game.
In that context, an army like FEC isn't really that big of a deal. The tougher fights are generally stuff like Skaven or Slaanesh - armies that have higher body counts and more moving threats.
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13 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
I disagree. Gavriel Sureheart is a strong combo but is counterable and thereforce interactable via movement. Ive had games when i was new to the game, where Gavriel and 10 evos get screened by some dryads or some bloodreavers and my charge is wasted on them, giving my opponent the chance to countercharge and seize the initiative. Now imagine the Gavriel list always fighting first. Youve negated any responsibility for careful positioning on my part since my surecharge bomb will get to annhilate you no matter what
You've missed my point. I'm not comparing and contrasting the two abilities. I'm saying it breaks the rules of the game in some way, and the FEC/Slaanesh stuff is just another in a long line of rules that do something like that. It stands to reason that rather than us expecting GW to fix it, there will just be even more things like that in the next book and the next. Ad nauseum. That's the game we are actually playing. Expecting any sort of balance at this point is wishful thinking, I think.
Having said that I do wonder what the FAQs and point adjustments in July will do for the game, if anything.
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33 minutes ago, jhamslam said:
I would also add. Im not a fan of "fight first" mechanics. Imo games like AoS and 40k are won or lost in the movement phase and getting the initiative on your opponent. To be able to cancel that out with a simple fight first mechanic is the dumbest thing ever, like it takes no strategy or tactical knowledge just move your movels up the board and roll dice
It's worth noting that we had an artefact in the previous tome that allowed us to do this. It just wasn't as much of a big deal I guess because we weren't that great in combat. Also I think it was only once per game.
Another thing to keep in mind is that units like Gavriel are in this same camp of "things that break the rules of the game".
For whatever reason, AoS is full of stuff like this. Because of the fact that (if you think about it) the game is riddled with this kind of thing and seems to have always been, I suppose it's disingenuous to cherry pick certain things like the current activation wars stuff, without acknowledging that we've been playing in a game that revels in breaking its own mechanics almost every chance it gets.
At a certain point you may have to just accept that reality is AoS is not a game that is or probably ever will be balanced in the way that you're talking. I think part of the process of becoming better is accepting the fact that the game isn't built around the concept of fairness. That's obviously not their design intent, and there's no reason to expect it ever will be, based on past history.
The moral of the story is that if you "really" care about winning, just jump on the bandwagon and find something that breaks the mechanics too. Anvilstrike ho......
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18 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:
so basically I should get another 3 longstrikes, a Knight Azyros, and make castigators work?
At this point, I'd probably just copy whatever PJetski is doing. He's got a better win ratio than anyone else I know playing SCE. I've tried a lot of different builds over the past year, but I've not found any traction against "take all comers". I can create an army to deal with one opponent, given enough time, but it ends up having major flaws against some other army.
As I found out recently in my last tournament, not being Anvils and just going generic shooting doesn't cut it. Without Longstrikes and the Anvils ability, even shooting doesn't really work in today's meta. It's the combination of both that's doing it. The ability to attack twice in a single turn is incredible with the right units.
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15 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:
Does this also apply to Paladins? I've been eyeing some since they dropped in points and I love the Protector models... are these good or are they finicky and need to be dropped in? are we better off taking Palladors for the 180pts?
Anvilstrike is just about the only thing working atm, which relies on a heavy shooting element. If you try to do anything in melee, you can make a strong-ish army to a point, but there's a handful of armies that will just blow you out of the water.
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2 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:
basically I only have the units from Soul Wars... would Longstrikes or Judicators be a better expansion purchase? Or buy some Liberators for a cheap 3rd battleline and run Castigators until I expand more?
Juds will give you your required battle line.
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@Lucentia Beautiful models!
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Would lauchon plus life takers be even better?
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3 hours ago, altu said:
Hi all!
New DoK player here. Want to discuss first turn auto charge (almost) idea.
List should be KHAILEBRON temple, with the SHADOWHAMMER COMPACT battalion, and at least one 30 witches unit. At the start of your hero phase, pick witches unit and set up 9 inches from enemy units. Chain some models to own deployment zone, to be able get prayers, Mindrazor, witchbrew, etc. The unit cannot move in your next movement phase. But! You can you battalion ability to mode 3 inches distance from the enemy units in the hero phase. That would be 80+ attacks.
Please share your thoughts about this idea. Do es it makes sense to use it?
Sounds like a good idea.
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34 minutes ago, Boggler said:
Thanks, What about the bases? The boss guy is a round base and the others are the ovals. Does this matter? Magnetize it?
The box comes with 3 oval bases and 3 round bases.
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The only thing I have to add to this Desolator conversation of worthy note, is that you guys are basically putting it up against the best opponent in the game and trying to pick it apart from that angle. Such an army I imagine would do fairly well against lesser opponents, and it might be fun to play.
I've got a version of this list that I've been building towards for a while, but my version is using the Hammers of Sigmar and Vandus Hammerhand rather than a Drakesworn Templar. Vandus makes the Desolators immune to battleshock while he's still alive, and he has a command ability that he can pop to give them +1 attack. I don't plan on winning tournaments with such a list, but against many other armies, it would be a pain in the butt for them to deal with. For the sake of variety, I do think it might do well, occasionally. Yes, easy for some armies to counter, but that's life.
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Almost all of my lists will lose a unit with these changes, which means on the whole every army I use got nerfed slightly.
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2 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:
So under the new points system, the shootcast is the only choice then?
Yeah get ready for 6 months to a year of anvilstrike armies..
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4 hours ago, Lucentia said:
And you can absolutely fit 30 25mm bases wholly within 3" of Lauchon, someone's already made a movement tray for it! I think you can actually get closer to 50 25 mm bases or 30+ 25mm bases? But it is probably something you'd need a template for for the sake of speed...
Yeah I would definitely build a template for this to speed the game up a little.
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13 hours ago, JaffaBones said:
Could you please elaborate your finesse use of the azyros? I am assuming you are using it to give the Raptors RR1s. I tried similar lists but my Azyros dies after one turn of giving the RR1, often times not even able to use his Lightbomb. It's come to a point I'm questioning if I want to spend 100p for 1-2 turns of RR1 max.
Looks usually like this for me:
I manage to screen my Raptors T1, to get my shooting in the Hero-phase in, then I drop the Azyros end of movement phase inside of 10" to whatever I want to touch with my Longstrikes.
This is what I seemingly have trouble with: if it's within 10" it's oftentimes not screened and dies. If I leave it on the board he often doesn't get into 10" of priority targets. If it does (with run) he is alone and dies except against weak opponents.
For what it’s worth this is my experience using the azyros as well. I managed to save him in a tournament recently by buffering him on both sides with 2 units of aetherwings and a unit of hurricane raptors behind. I managed to keep the azyros in play for the entire game and got 2 really good turns out of him and the lantern. However, there’s a certain irony in needing 240 additional points of units to keep a 100 pt character alive, but I digress....
I suspect if others are keeping him alive longer, they simply have more interesting or more important targets on the table for their opponents to worry about. All my opponents prioritise the azyros no matter where I put him. He’s basically a one turn wonder in my list. But I still think he’s one of our better heroes, and synergises great with our units.
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1 hour ago, PJetski said:
I have posted it before in this thread
2x Incantor
Veritant
Azyros
Heraldor3x5 Liberator
1x10 Evocators
1x9 Longstrikes
2x5 AetherwingsGeminids
Quicksilver SwordsAlthough I don't play the same army, I've taken some very heavy shooting lists over the past two years, and one of the worst matchups for me has been a very heavy eels deepkin army. The main reason being that I cannot shoot anything but the closest target, and they have cover and ignore rend on some of their units. Have you played against this sort of army, and if so how have you dealt with it? (Serious question as this matchup felt almost like a hard counter to me, and I had a lot of trouble seeing a way out of it.)
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43 minutes ago, JaffaBones said:
I am baffled about something. It seems like barley someone noticed how much the mount trait "Storm-Winged" of the Stardrake got buffed up, since I barely see it picked. It used to be D3 in the movement phase and now it's "every time it moves", this includes charge and pile-ins. That's quite a few extra mortal wounds which can add up. Why do people keep picking different traits?
Compare it with the Hydroxycloak artefact, which used to be basically the same ability (on 3+ though), they nerfed it to "normal move" in the faq. Storme-Winged is still just move.
I suspect people aren't using it because it seems suspicious, and might lead to arguments on the table. Compared to other mount traits, it has the potential to pour out mortal wounds multiple times in a single turn, and in your opponents turn. It would make that mount trait about 50 times more useful than any other. I wouldn't put it past GW to actually let stuff like this go, but personally I wouldn't feel comfortable using this against people, even in a tournament setting. Regardless of how justified you might feel it is (ie other armies have BS, so we should too), it feels like rules twisting to me, and I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
Having said that, I agree 100% with how it's worded that it seems you can fire it off in the movement, assault, and pile in phases, and in your opponent's combat phase during pile in as well. You might have to be REAL pedantic about explaining to your opponent what's happening and why... but I'd personally be fine with someone doing it to me as long as there's no FAQ stopping it. I just wouldn't use it myself.
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31 minutes ago, Lucentia said:
Idoneth do have a SC box now! But it's not a great one necessarily.
If you're lucky you might be able to find some independent stores which still have stock of the Devoted of Morathi box in, depending on where you live, but it would be a long-shot, sadly.
I managed to buy two of them, which in the long run will save me a lot of money. I'm actually surprised the boxes lasted as long as they did in our area, as DoK are doing very well right now and you would think more people would be interested in them. I think the price and model range must really put people off.
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28 minutes ago, frostfire said:
What about holding the line？
No need to hold a line if the enemy is dead. (Joke)
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23 minutes ago, Requizen said:
I think with a bit of tweaking it can easily be a 4-1 list. I'm curious to try it.
I'll be curious to know your experiences. It's a little different than my standard list.
I started out with a larger block at my home base, but I've been taking smaller units lately. I find that 15 is the magic number, but my current list I've trimmed down to just 10 so that I could get more threats on the table. I've also trimmed down from 10 evos to 5, so that I could fit my celestant prime into the list, but that'st just kind of a personal preference.
As for the Vanguard Raptors, the best tactic I've found with them so far is to put them 18" back, just at the edge of their threat range, and then form a wall of birds directly in front of them. My best record so far is stalling a strong unit from attacking a flank up to 3 turns. However, this relied somewhat on my opponent not understanding what controlled the birds, nor understanding just how weak they are. I'm finding the raptors don't deal as much damage as I'd like, and that it's actually quite expensive for what is essentially a delay tactic - if you think about it objectively, it's 470 points for what is effectively a harrassment and stall unit. They will not "clear out screens" the way that you are thinking, as effectively as you want them to, but they will do great at holding a flank from getting over-run for a few turns. I just worry that for 470 points you could just put another 20 sequitors on the board, and that's something you'll have to think about as you go, as that would arguably be more effective, and also be 4 fewer drops too...
You also need to be mindful of the number of heroes in your list, and how you will get them onto objectives for missions like Three Places of Power. You could end up in a mission in a tournment where you just can't get your heros to the objectives quickly enough, or they get picked off quickly. This is another reason that I have the Celestant Prime in my list.
I'm hoping that the GHB19 book might reduce the price of some of these units a little bit, as that would strengthen the army quite a bit.
Edit: Another thing to be mindful of is how succeptible this strategy is to endless spells that do D3 damage to each unit. A bad spell phase can wipe out the entire pack of small units, and some of the better tournament armies always have access to such a spell.
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@Requizen I’ve been playing lists like this for over a year. It has good offense and answers for a lot of opponents. But it gets stuffed by eels and FEC and most DoK. Very solid tier 2 list that can get 2-3 wins out of 5 depending on how well you play and what your matchups are.
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1 hour ago, jhamslam said:
Had some games this past weekend, Skaven are .....too much. I have never seen an army that can bring a strong melee, shooting AND magic component at the same time, even we have to make sacrifices to bring one or the other. Holy hell that book and their points costs is f-in stupid af (Arcanum at 240 and Verminlord at 260, wtf) . I just cant kill enough things in enough time before he overwhelms me. The game here felt closer than it probably was
My experience fighting them too. There's not a lot of weaknesses there, just strength after strength in every phase.
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42 minutes ago, Requizen said:
What are you currently running?
I think including at least one Evo unit with Gav is almost necessary still, since sometimes you need that smash punch with him to just instagib something.
I've run several different variations over the past year and a half. The lists that I've had the best results with have been hybrid lists, which had a balance of shooting and assault.
The list I took most recently was an experiment, where I went completely shooting, with almost no assault or ground force. That list didn't do well because I was unable to generate enough damage and push people away quickly enough. That list would have worked if the games lasted longer, and missions weren't as favorable towards aggressive armies. A defensive, shooting army doesn't get ahead on points early enough in the game, and it's difficult to come back from that quickly enough. But I think if games lasted longer or win conditions were different, an army like that might do well. I was doing very well in terms of kill points in all of my missions with a shooting list, but I was losing the missions anyway due to losing initiative in moving forward and capturing objectives. If more missions were KP based, a shooting army I think would do very well in the meta.
This is my current "balance" list that I've been taking to friendly matchups, and it's been doing very well against a wide variety of opponents. It doesn't have much of an answer against some of the best armies out there, however. I don't know what to do about that except to just take a different list/stormhost.
SpoilerAllegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Lord-Castellant (100)
- General
- Trait: We Cannot Fail
- Artefact: God-forged Blade
Gavriel Sureheart (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Celestant-Prime (340)
Battleline
10 x Liberators (200)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 2x Grandhammers
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
5 x Judicators (160)
- Boltstorm Crossbows
- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows
Units
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)
5 x Evocators (200)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Terrifying Aspect
War Machines
Celestar Ballista (100)
Endless Spells
Everblaze Comet (100)
Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108I think, at this point, if I were to try to move into a more competitive list, I would need to have a Lord Arcanum general, and start replacing many elements of the list with large amounts of sequitors. At some point, the celestant prime would need to go as well. He is a good unit and does well, but he is fragile and fails to earn his points back in too many games.
The above list, however, is very fun for me to play. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, and it has a lot of bells and whistles. In terms of enjoyment, I wouldn't change a thing.
I just wish many of the units were cheaper, so that I could get more bodies on the table while playing the same type of game. If the GHB19 reduces the cost on some of the units I'm using, then I might stick with the theme and just attack some of the weaknesses in it, mainly bodies.
AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted
I mostly agree with you except that I think Anvilstrike is probably more than just a break check.
I frankly feel that Stormcast on average is quite a bad army, and have felt that way for ages. I can’t seem to get much traction on this forum whenever I say that, but I think it’s true nevertheless. If you build a fun, balanced list with them, you will struggle, and I do mean struggle, to win 3/5 games in a tournament. Doing so will be a major achievement with them, and anything better than that is going to be an extremely specific list that’s relying on and abusing a very specific gimmick and unit. The lists that you can do this with are very few, and still takes an incredible level of competence to use.
I think anvilstrike is currently at the top of this heap by a pretty wide margin...