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List 1 feels like its low on bodies and doesn't really have a synergy other than the 9 Longstrikes. In isolation all units are great, which is sort of the Stormcast thing I guess, but you're unlikely to be attacked in isolation. If you're going Anvil shooting you really need to screen the missile unit, but this list feels like you're trying to get away with everything being punchy. Having said that I've never seen it played, only know the theory, so I could be talking nonsense. List 2, taking 3 Ballista without an Oridinator feels like tempting fate. If you want them to do something, which presumably you do as there's 3 of them, get rid of an Incantor and take an Ordinator to maximise their investment. Again, the units in isolation will be fine but four units of models and one big mob sort of communicates your intentions beforehand I think. Evocators are too expensive to be used to hold objectives, so I assume they're there for the Cleansing Phalanx? In which case having one super empowered unit of Sequitors, half of whom won't be able to fight because their footprint is about a yard wide, and then other wee runty unit of empowered Sequitors feels misguided. I know 20 are cheaper in bulk and it's basically impossible to chew threw them up but I think you'd get a lot more value out of the battalion with a 10 and a 15. Or alternatively, don't take Cleansing Phalanx, make the Evocators a 10, and then bump up the 5 Sequitors to a 10 with the points saved. For both, In straight up fights you'll do a lot of damage but you're really lacking MW output which in my experience is the thing that tips SC over from being quality combatants to winners when you get into combat. Due to the cost of our units if combats are drawn out then having a unit stuck in combat or it's movement dictated by surrounding enemies is costlier for us than it is for most as we don't have the bodies to steal objectives or reinforce. You need that one unit who reliably blows something up in a turn which is why Evocators are so great, they essentially attack twice and the second time they don't need to roll to wound. They're a reliable cutting edge. I'd say at the moment against things that ignore rend or have high saving throws, you're going to get stuck in fights that you can't quite win in time, and then either swamped or outmaneuvered.

Sure you’ll have thought this through but If you were thinking about dropping the Evos and decided against the CP then you’ve got 250 for ten Sequitors who will definitely do work either as unit or two screening options Really like the list, kudos on trying something different and making it work! Where does the Azyros fit in? For Re-rolls obviously but does he drop or do you move him forward to get the aura ?

They do explode, which is why it’s D3 on 6’s against the relevant matchups. It’s just their ammo is designed for Nighthaunt and Demons. SC currently have more missile options than other armies have units. Venator Judicators, 2 types Prosecutors, multiple types Raptors, 2 types Hunters Ballista Ordinators And like 4 shooty Battalions to make thenm shoot better Really don’t need everything to be great for every purpose. Vs Nighthaunt and Chaos Castigators pack a punch, that’s what they’re explicitly designed for. Similar to the Exorcist. Situational options.

Judicators are 160 so again, it’s really the Prime and the range (and I guess Battleline) that you’re paying for otherwise Castigators are straight up better.

Aye The castigator three pack with mystery Gryph hound are superb models Heres another weird thing, they get two attacks in combat vs Judicators one. Somehow belting someone in the face with a crossbow is more proficient than stabbing them with a Gladius.

Castigators are decent hero snipers if you deepstrike them, I’ve caught a few spell casters who were sat in buildings thinking they were having a safe cup of tea. Innate re-rolling 1’s or rend-2 isn’t bad at all and if you’re against Nighthaunt or Chaos obviously their threat rises considerably . That’s the only use I’ve been able to find for them though. Rarely take them. Tremendously weird unit size. I like Judicators because they can cap and still contribute. Not tested it but I imagine if you just want a missile platform 2 ballista and an ordinator at only 20 points more is probably superior to 2 units of Judicators, albeit not as flexible.

Haha the Squig Dice lasted long

Oh I'd be the first person to tell anyone that GW releases things on the basis of business decision pretty much exclusively. But I really don't follow the logic behind the idea that they're gong to take something already popular-Stormcast-invest money in *changing it*, even slightly, and release it as a separate faction to directly compete with the thing that sells really well. To strengthen my argument, I would point to the squatted Chamber accessory packs as Exhibit B.

Tournaments sure if it’s in their rules beforehand as a house rules thing. But paint schemes for Stormcast arent enforced by anything otherwise, the rules state you can make any Stormcast a member of a listed Host if you give them the keyword and then they have to abide by the associated rules. If someone objects to that then of course I’d always encourage a conversation to reach a compromise but strictly speaking they’re not entitled to object to you playing Anvils as Hammers etc.

You seriously think they’re going to release a Hammers of Sigmar book “before long” when there’s over a dozen armies without a proper tome at all including multiple key AOS factions? I doubt it.

You seriously think they’re going to release a Hammers of Sigmar book “before long” when there’s over a dozen armies without a proper tome at all including multiple key AOS factions? I doubt it.

Really isn’t. Blood Angels are a separate army. Different units, rules, abilities, characters, army book. You would have to get explicit permission to use a non-Blood Angels proxy and use their rules. Stormhost rules are explicitly allowed to be applied to any Stormcast army. The listed chambers are achertypes that give an example of the different ways in which the multiple Chambers are organised, their character, motivation, how they fight etc. They are a tactical allegiance just like those in the other Battletimes, there to provide character, different synergies and inspirations for how to play and paint your models etc. They are nothing like as established or realised as any of the founding Space Marine chapters. They’re an optional flavourful add-on, not a distinct, unique identity. Quite a bit different.

Never taken one not against spooks-cos why would you-but used him instead of Incantor against Nighthaunt this week in a game I won. Lack of auto dispel didn’t matter cos they had nothing of worth to cast and he took a decent bite out of some heroes and units with his holiness. Didn’t feel Incantors absence on this occasion. Just 1000 points though so the more compact field definitely allowed his influence to tell more, and everything he rolled went off , obviously he’s not a reliable source of damage. Not saying he would do anything in larger games.

In that scenario sure. But you didn’t suggest Reluctors should be reduced in price hence my 40 points observation. @azoxystrobin You don’t need to paint your guys black to use Anvils, there’s no uniform limitation to taking the Stormhosts. Strictly speaking you can take a Hammers army and play them as Anvils. So don’t let all that get in the way of painting your dudes as you wish!

The cheaper bit is moot because with your proposal you’re not paying 40 points extra for a priest, your’e either paying 100 for a priest + 40 for a wizard or vice versa. A wizard who can dispel, cast a spell and a prayer once per turn, for 140 points, you can’t tell me that’s balanced. The exorcist in my mind should by virtue of design be something you take against ghosts and demons, and the Veritant against spell casters. Neither should be a default, they’re specialists. Make the exorcist a priest, so he gets an ability to do D3 mortal wounds to a Nighthaunt or demon battleline without having to cast it, plus a dispel and a prayer, I think he’s good for what he’s meant to do. That way you have Relictor- Chaplain Exorcist- Ghostbuster Veritant- Witch Hunter

But would also make both wizard and relictor largely defunct. Why take either when you can take one guy who does both. Remove wizard but make him a priest, make Purifying blast an ability, and give him one dispel per turn, then he’s about right I would say.

The Vanguard Conclave is unlikely to do much for you, I would drop it and take another unit of Judicators, unless it’s there to facilitate the single drop. You’re missing an artefact looks like. Scroll of condemnation might be fun with an Anvils list. It will be a lot of fun to use, but it will require a ton of coordination to work well . For a shooting anvils list you’re lacking one big repeat option. One unit of Judicators or a Ballista firing twice is nice but unlikely to be seismic. Against something that hits hard and fast or is able to deep strike you’ll likely encounter problems as you don’t really have anything there to brace against shock troops or defend held objectives for long. There’s also an absence of Mortal Wounds which is key against certain units. And against Sylvaneth you’re going to be very frustrated! You could try getting rid of the Heart renders and Judicators, swap them for a unit of 6 Raptors with Hurricanes Crossbows who can make the most of the Anvils ability and a value unit of Sequitors, Or even get a Zephyros with Sword of Judgement or Venator in there for hero/monster hunting. Judicators are good because their range allows them to contribute while capping but this looks like the kind of list where the enemy will be coming to you. The comet is powerful but because you have a list which discourages the enemy standing still you’ll have to repeat cast to really get it to work which is a pretty big gamble with only one caster. A unit of Liberators for the same price will provide you with more of a tactical base to anchor the rest of your tricksy maneouvures. What are your thoughts behind it? It looks like the vanguard theme is something you’re going for so I’ve tried to respect that in my suggestions.

They don't need a buff. If they were in anyone else's faction they would be worth 100 points. I think a reduction to 95 points would illustrate their quality notably. But again, I don't think they need it. People are taking other things that are uniformly better because they're more versatile. That's the issue, as it is with most AOS factions. It's not that other stuff is bad, it's just that if you're only interested in the best pound for pound option there's an easy answer every time. If Sequitors didn't exist and Liberators were the only battleline option I don't think anyone would be saying they needed a nerf or a buff.

Think we’re of the same mind on this

That’s more of an issue with people investing in the game at a level GW aren’t though. It’s not a balanced game at the top tier. If you want to only play one army against the best players, and your intention is to win, and the game only caters for meta armies, then you’re either going to have to stick with the meta or just hope that on top of doing everything right, the majority of luck based plays in a fairly luck orientated game roll your way, 5 games in sequence. I respect you for wanting you to win with your guys, but I think anyone who has that mentality is going to get burnt playing AOS at the top level for the foreseeable future at the very least unless they’re just fortunate enough to play a faction who remains consistently effective . The game is rigged and they’ve shown no inclination to sort that.

Aye, SC have so many options which, while not as good as Sequitors (ie essentially broken) are still very reliable in their role. Nerf Sequitors and Evocators and they will still be a strong army with good defence and attack in melee , decent cavalry and magic, powerful shooting, tactical flexibility, and multiple build and strong synergy options. Nerf two units from most other factions which are similarly as ubiquitous and powerful as the Sacrosanct mainstays though and they would be pretty much ruined at a competitive level.

I havent said they are better at any point though have I. I said they perform well in certain situations and that their reduced cost allows you to do other stuff elsewhere, and that you don’t need to use Sequitors all the time as battleline because Liberators are not as inferior as they are made out to be. The line of my argument was that you don’t need to use overpowered units to win if you don’t want to, essentially. This way works, often. It’s not the only way. It’s not the best way. But it’s completley viable in non-cutthroat but still competitive circumstances, in my experience. Of course everyone likes a unit that can do multiple things. In my experience though it makes games boring. The guy said he likes Liberators and I’m saying that he can take Liberators and do well, in the right scenario. If you cant follow that nuance of argument and want to make everything a tedious binary scenario of one thing is always better than another then that’s on you. I’m personally not interested in predictable repetition and wrote methods. I like to try stuff. I take a new list most weeks with all sorts-Hunters, Gryph Hounds, a Star Drake. Non Meta stuff. Do those lists perform as reliably well as the tedious Sequitor Evocators spam? No. Are they more fun to play? Hell yes. Do they look better? Yup. Are they still good on the table, are they still capable of winning plenty games if you play well and use them to their full advantage? Absolutely they are. I take those characters for their utility across the army, not to solely buff their Liberators. I don’t always take them but more often than not that little committee more than pays for itself in any list 2000 points list.

Think there’s a lot in this. People know where they’re at with archetypes. Especially in a hobby which requires a steep financial investment, something original or novel often equates to being intimidating. Warhammer doubled down on this because even their fantasy was an archetype of something else-Holy Roman Empire circa 17th Century for Empire , Medieval France for Bretonnia, Egypt for Tomb Kings, Vikings for Dwarves and so on. They weren’t just those things but they were heavily inspired by them. Idoneth have their own archetypes as well but they’re much more niche culturally speaking. They’re sort of some stuff but they’re also not. They’re not Cthulhu Elves. They’re not Atlanteans. They’re not Sea Elves. They’re not a classical maritime civilization. They’re not Dark Eldar. They’re a mix of all the above and more without ever being any of them specifically. You like them for what they are or you probably don’t like them at all, as there’s nothing else for them to be to you, nothing to hang onto or find a way in. If you like them because elves, there’s only about 4 models who are actually elves. If you like the Thrall concept you only get 2 units of them , no heroes, rest are Aelves. And so on. I love them because their essence is very strong and defined, but people will dislike them for the same reason. I would like for them to get more options but I think ala KO they will be left as a curate’s egg. For all that AOS is going somewhere new, I think the Idoneth are maybe too much at the deep end (lol) just now. An example of designers feeling too uninhibited by tradition. Me, I love that direction, but fantasy is, ironically, not a genre which welcomes too much of a departure from classic archetypes, more often than not. If you look for example at the reception of the Gloomspite Gitz, the consensus is that they “got” Night Goblins, and then some. A Better version of what we know, that seems to be the key. Sacrosanct Chamber fit that same description. They are recognisably what they are, with the addition of strongly communicated wizard goodness. Stop and think about it and most of AOS most popular IP fits the same description. A better version of what we already know. Whereas Deep Kin are just way over there somewhere. They’re definitely the least orthodox in their trad fantasy aspects. Just to add, I’m not saying for a second I believe there’s anything in that 4Chan thing at all. I’m not saying IDK sold poorly because X. I’m not even saying they sold poorly. It’s just my opinion on the issues surrounding GW selling a very novel IP, and what I would assume the pitfalls around that might be.

Idoneth are expensive and they have more heroes than units. I think that’s the main issue. Start Collecting sets will see them increase in popularity quite a bit I think. Aquaman franchise probably won’t do their sales any harm either.

Fair enough!