dmorley21
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Posts posted by dmorley21
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4 minutes ago, Rors said:
I would have thought it was the other way around. We easily get -1 to hit but only on our turn from WoT. Lord executioners, the artifact, and the spell work in the opponents turn with -1 to wound.
Yep, I'm probably wrong then. For some reason I thought both the LE and the artefact required you to charge, so my bad. Can't wait to have the actual book in my hands.
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2 hours ago, Rors said:
So our most common buff in the book is actually -1 to wound? That's interesting given how fragile this army is to getting double turned. So maybe the designers want a army that plays hyper aggressive with most of the list tech actually geared towards being evasive while doing so.
An overlapping field of -1 wound and 5+ wards would certainly go a long way to solving how much this armies special rules only benefit us in our own turn.
I mean -1 to hit is the easiest to achieve. And the -1 to wound abilities are mainly on your turn - only the spell, Shademist, lasts during your opponent's turn.
36 minutes ago, aylien119 said:Hi all,
First up, thanks to everyone for the thoughts and mini battle reports! It's been very helpful with brainstorming ghost lists, especially when covid makes it hard to actually play.I had a question re: Bladegheists and Grimghast Reapers.
Why do some seem to prefer BG over GR?
So since 7 and 7/9 is greater than 7.5, wouldn't 10 GR be better than 10 BR?
Or am I missing something?
Thanks for reading all this!
You're missing gamesmanship to some degree - depending on... well a lot actually (your target, terrain, etc.) it's possible to honeycomb your 32 mm units so that all 10 can be coherent and get into combat. Even if not, you're likely getting more than 5 models into combat - 7 is usually my minimum. But it takes a lot or practice and time, which does not make for a fast game.
The other thing is the mortal wounds Bladegheists do in Scarlet Doom. That's what makes them so good.
Still, your point remains that in actual gameplay, mainly when reinforced, Reapers will end up doing more damage due to more models being able to fight.
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It's worth considering the replication of buffs and debuffs that we have available as an army. I feel like ones that appear multiple ways are likely ones that the rules writers planned on us taking advantage of - so it's something to keep in mind.
-1 to Wound Rolls for Enemies
Shademist - a spell that makes a single unit of yours -1 to wound when targeted and lasts until your next hero phase.
Harridans - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge
Lord Executioner - make an enemy unit -1 to wound on the charge
Pendant of the Fell Wind - an artefact that provides a 3" aura of -1 to wound rolls for enemies
-1 to Hit Rolls
Wave of Terror - on a 4-7, but effectively on a 4+ if you want the -1 to hit effect
Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18".
+1 to Hit Rolls
All-Out Attack - a generic command point, that is freely issued by Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed and can be replicated by a Dreadblade Harrow
Chainghasts - a unit that provides a wholly within 12" bubble of +1 to hit in melee as long as there's a Spirit Torment on the board
Grief-Stricken - Lady Olynder's warscroll spell that targets an enemy unit within 18".
5+ Ward Saves
Discorporate - a faction command ability that changes ward saves from a 6+ to a 5+
Seal of Shyish - a spell that grants a unit a 5+ ward save wholly within 12" until the next hero phase
Nagash's Command Ability - adds 1 to ward rolls, effectively making generic NH ward rolls a 5+. Worth noting this can also work on the Lord Executioner, Lady Olynder, or the Black Coach to make them tankier.
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Further to @EnixLHQ, it will be really interesting to see what each legion excels at playing.
Scarlet Doom is the go to right now, because it produces mortals, is an all-comers subfaction, and honestly is the easiest subfaction to play.
Emerald Host is the second most popular from what I have seen, and can do a little work against anyone. Generally, I think it's the weakest but is still good.
Quicksilver is overlooked right now, but really good against Nurgle or Cities of Sigmar that feature Phoenix Guard/Phoenixes or maybe even other Nighthaunt lists. If Sylvaneth get wards from Wyldwoods or Overgrown terrain and another ward save faction joins the meta... I could see it having legs. Right now it's a bit too specific.
Honestly though, I think Grieving Legion is hands down the best subfaction. It's just awful to play and to play against. But as someone who's run into Hosts Duplicitous Tzeentch a few times... that's crazy powerful. It's also one of the main reasons that Krondspine is getting so much attention. With our deployment shenanigans, you can just trap an entire army. I haven't seen anyone run it yet, and it'll be an absolute grind, but darn I think it's got legs.
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After parsing through a lot of battle reports with the new rules (here, Facebook groups, Discord servers, the couple YouTube ones I found and posted, etc.), it really seems like NH need an anvil or distraction piece so that the rest of the MSU army can do its thing. I'm seeing/reading a lot of players just having their units straight up deleted. As long as you have a threatening anvil that you can keep the one alive, it should allow your other units to do what they want to do. The trick is finding something that will actually draw your opponent's attention. Let's look at some examples, starting with heroes:
Lady Olynder w/ Spirit Hosts.
She's tanky, she does a lot, and giving her some Spirit Hosts really increases her ability to tank. My concern is that from what I have seen and read, opponents will just let her do her thing or fight her if the opportunity presents itself. They're not going out of their way to come at her.
Kurdoss w/ Spirit Hosts
He does a lot of damage for this army, but in the big scheme of things he's not going to be confused with a Gatebreaker or Fulminators in terms of output. If you run him in conjunction with a Lord Executioner... then maybe. But I don't see an opponent targeting that IMO.
Nagash
Yeah, Nagash will be the focus of your enemy's attention more often than not from my experience. If you have a 1000 pt list you like, just add Nagash. He does go down though and certain armies can take him down in a single turn. The other thing about Nagash, is he can turn a unit into a 4+/4+ pretty easily (Seal of Shyish + his command ability). His command ability also pairs really well with the Black Coach... but yikes at that points sink.
I think that's realistically it as far as characters go. You could argue Mannfred or Big-Drogg... but in my experience opponents ignore the former and at this point I feel like every army can handle a single Mega. As for units:
30 Chainrasp Horde
Even at 30, these ghosts just aren't going to be seen as a threat. However, you can deepstrike them right in front of your opponent and 30 wounds at a 5+/5+ might be able to stick around a bit.
20 or 30 Grimghast Reapers
I think this is the unit best equipped for this purpose. With their 2" reach and rend, they'll actually be considered a threat. A large blob will be able to go to work and will be something your opponent needs to deal with. I think they really want a Spirt Torment / Chainghast combo to be at their best, which really adds to the cost.
20 Harridans
This can work because they are -1 to wound when they charge in. However, outside of their subfaction and your opponent having wards, I just don't know if they'll be viewed as a threat and that's a significant points sink to not work they way you want them to work.
20 Bladegheists
You would only ever consider this in Scarlet Doom, but I think Scarlet Doom either wants a blob of 20 or a different large blob for the Bladegheists to dance around.
Black Coach
With its ward save, it can take a hit. And it's the type of piece that your opponent might spend more time on than they really should. However, without having easy access to healing, it will go down.
All said, I think you're going to either want a unit of 20/30 Reapers, or if you have the appropriate subfaction a unit of 20 Bladegheists or Harridans so that you can run the rest of your army MSU.
Thoughts?
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19 hours ago, dmorley21 said:
Put together a blog post that collects different reviews. If you see ones I've missed, let me know and I'll add them. Figured it would be a good resource.
Added some more links, including a pretty good battle report (from the first half that I've watched so far), a review on the lore and PtG, and an upcoming list tech show by Facehammer (will be half Nighthaunt, half Daughters of Khaine).
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Put together a blog post that collects different reviews. If you see ones I've missed, let me know and I'll add them. Figured it would be a good resource.
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22 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:
Latest rules update: "And in light of their petrifying revamp, the Nighthaunt will leave the Prime Hunters list."
This was already known, but good to be reminded.
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2 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:
Surprised a Cairn Wraith did that much carnage with just 3+/3+ -1 rend, even against hordes, wish he'd stayed his old price point 😂
Bit worried that most battlereps Ive seen have been both sides just completely wiping whatever theyve charged into, hard to do much healing
That’s what happens when you run MSU. If you want to take advantage of healing, you need reinforced units IMO.
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14 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:
Awlrach really seems like almost an auto include. Great stats, 7 wounds, utility, quite killy, fairly decent point cost.
Sidenote; I really hope the new GHB gives the same point-cost workover to everyone else, as I too am finding making a list requires a great deal of sacrifices at the moment.
Also also; did we not get any battalions or did I miss that for list building? Just the 'take these choices and get an extra enhancement or reroll' etc
I feel like everyone with a 3rd edition book has felt like this since the first two in terms of stuff being expensive points-wise. So I imagine that will occur in the general's handbook as well.
I've come around on Awlrach. He's fighty and his utility ability is pretty good as we know from Dreadblade Harrows. That said, I don't think anything is an auto-include in this army with Spirit Hosts maybe being the closest. There's just a lot of good options. Truly a great place to be.
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2 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:
I’ve got 5 2.0 games lined up next weekend 😂
By this I mean the old tome. Am rocking the incarnate (and Nagash)… so at least I’ll have a feel for the Incarnate.
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4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:
The best way to do it is getting games under our belts, collectively, and then reporting the results good or bad.
I’ve got 5 2.0 games lined up next weekend 😂
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How are people forgetting Nurgle is one of the most popular armies going right now? Quicksilver Harridans are a perfect counter.
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1 hour ago, Rachmani said:
As the Krondspine got mentioned.
The timing isn’t excellent, but we have to ask outselves, what we do *against* it, as it blocks retreats, which are a staple of ours.
At least the Bladegheist faction should take a hard look at Awlrach. For that exact reason.
Pin it. It can’t retreat either and with Ethereal, it’ll have trouble chewing through a unit. 6 Spirit Hosts or 20 Chainrasps should be able to tie it up long enough to make a difference.
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I actually think people are really sleeping on the fact that Nagash now has access to a teleport. Makes his reach with Umbral Spellportal table wide and just opens up so much.
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Remember Krondspine turns off retreat and charge. The trick will be to just let it anvil something or to be within its bubble before you charge and not once you’re in combat.
And yes @Jabbuk, the warscroll is matched play legal in regular matched play.
As for the questions about Nagash - losing Reaping Scythe makes his melee so much less reliable. He’s still an option though. Just by having him you’re returning 4 wounds/models to each of your units in your hero phase. That’s huge. Soul Cage remains and the new Spectral Tether means the dude can teleport around the board. Load up 6 Arcane Bolts, teleport, and just zap a support hero to oblivion.
I think Nagash and Krondspine remain solid options, but don’t feel like musts at all anymore. And that’s a great spot to be.
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I’m seeing a few folks complain about the army’s output. It’s not a strength, but I don’t think it’s an Achilles heel either. Keep in mind that almost half the time your units will have an additional rend on the charge. Multi-charges will be huge.
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12 minutes ago, lare2 said:
Can anyone see anything to improve charges? I can never make 9".
Chronomantic Cogs and Krondspine. But the movement shenanigans are more aimed at board control as opposed to being able to charge from anywhere.
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6 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:
Gotta say, I'm amazed at the new possibilities of this book. It seems really thematic and fun. I kind of feel bad for flipping out when the combo box came out. Oh well, I learned my lesson.
That being said, I am surprised about Awlrach. He seems to be a small model, standing at 175pts. They kind of talked about him as a centerpiece in the preview, if I remember correctly. Was expecting a 10+ wounds hero perhaps. What do you guys think? Is the movement shenanigans seem mandatory to you?
Not at all mandatory.
This army can retreat and charge.
3 units can be lifted off the board after deployment to deepstrike.
The Harrow and Black Coach teleport.
Hexwraiths can move 24”.
The whole army moves at least 8” and flies.
Awlrach is nice, but redundant. That’s a tough spot to be with so many other good heroes.
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46 minutes ago, Vastus said:
Nothing extraordinary there. Not sure if Grimghasts really measure up to Bladgheists or Harridans though.
It’ll remain the same. Grimghasts are weaker as MSU, but the best if you reinforce them.
18 minutes ago, Boggler said:It's going to be a completely different playstyle for sure. This will take time to figure out.
I'm really not sure where our damage is supposed to come from. It's crazy to see they reduced out already low output in many cases. What do we have that will kill a gargant?
Debuffs add value I guess. But not vs Ranged attacks which will continue to be a massive problem for us. Did they see that Spirit Hosts were the hardest models to assemble and then decide to make them the core of the army?
Perhaps @dmorley21 was right this whole time. The Incarnate now seems to be an auto include for me. Maybe slightly better than Big Drogg.
Its an interesting situation.
RIP Nagash. It was fun...
Yeah, you’re probably not lifting a Mega a turn. But you can charge one… and just trap it.
The damage will come from charges largely.
Also, keep in mind Krondspire makes fishing for certain Wave of Terror results fun, but also shuts off retreat and charge. Still think he has a lot of play with this army.
Also, more of you need to talk about Hexwraiths! Soooo good.
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Sitting with the new book for 12ish hours, a few observations:
While some of the bubbles have dropped, this remains a very techy army.
It’s a speedy, resilient, debuff army.
Our basic troops don’t hit as hard as they used to, and while WoT is improved, the ceiling is lower. No more double activation. However, our heroes now hit a lot harder. Kurdoss’s glowup in particular is huge.
There’s still a spot for Nagash, Krondspire, or Big-Drogg as beat sticks are limited. Though with Reaping Scythe, I wouldn’t run Nagash unless I was just looking to have fun.
Shocked at how good Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths are. Figured they’d be forgotten being older models.
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4 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:
Tagging an enemy hero with -1 Save can seriously change the game. Especially if they go all-in with an expensively pointed model.
I’ve used twenty Hexwraiths to make Orlyander immortal before. It depends how competitive this tournament is and how comfortable you are with possibly losing your general.
There are some high quality players attending. A few of the Detroit guys who are pretty good. I hope to live at the mid tables. But you’re right about the -1 save being pretty good.
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Hey all,
I’m taking the following list to a tournament in a couple weeks:
Nagash / Reik / Harrow
Hex / Hex / Chainrasp
Krondspine.
When I bought my ticket to the tournament back in January, I had hoped it would be my first event with the new book. Well lists are due Friday so I’m just looking to do something completely different and just have some fun.
Question is, should I run it as Emerald Host or just no subfaction?
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7 hours ago, Boggler said:
There has to be a Command Trait that makes the Sciptor's proc roll better.
But in this case, it would be an auto-take since I don't know what other CT's would be comparable.
Maybe the possibility of choosing a 2nd target? or rolling 3d6 mortals?
There has to be something more to it... Too strong?
I’m guessing there will be a subfaction that boosts it like Nurgle got for their new hero. Maybe subtract one from the judgment rolls.
22 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:Looks like we might get our tome announcement on May 5th.
I wouldn’t expect dates announced. And they’ve already announced the new battletome, so I wouldn’t expect anything for Nighthaunt to be announced. Pay attention to when Warhammer Community starts previewing rules. That will be the clue.
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AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion
in Death
Posted
Gotta agree. Between Discord, Reddit, and Facebook; I'm in a lot of Nighthaunt discussions but this is the format that I enjoy the most.
Also, updated my blog with a few more reviews. The Warhammer Weekly one is definitely worth a listen/watch - I'd say Tom Lyons ended up as one of the best NH players with the previous battletome with his performance at Adepticon and now taking the old book to a 5-0 at Vault Wars.