Marcoangelo33

Thank you very much for the input, I really appreciate it.

Hello all, hope everyone is staying safe and healthy during these difficult times. I am working on some Big Stabbas and wanted to hear y'alls thoughts on how you painted them. Did any of you do them in Sub Assembly or did you paint them fully built? I was about to start working on them but they seem pretty difficult to paint fully assembled. That being said, it seems like it may be difficult to make sure their hands are in the right place, if done in sub assembly. Thank you for the advice!

Is this still available?

It is great hearing about your experience! You are right, Aetherquartz is extremely swingy, I didnt know what else to put there haha Man, 100% I am with you on those wizards in Bloodtoofs; that saaid, I like the CP generation and I feel like 90 points is really good for that + unbind/dispell. My main list has had no wizard and had a footboss with the qduff amulet and MK with metalripper. Eels are really difficult to deal with but it seems that more ardboyz is one of our better options to deal with them. I think a block of 20 arboyz is fantastic, they can take a punch and still fight back with violent fury. Ultimately though, I think that there are so many armies and so many builds, that it is so difficult to deal with all of them. Because of this, the best one can do, with Bloodtoofs, is maximize your armies strengths or "uniqueness" and try and use this, to overcome those flaws or unanswerable builds and armies. I guess one would say you "skew" into that strength. With this being said, I feel as though Bloodtoofs unique property is its incredible movement (+1 run and Charge), auto teleport and of course, the ability to move after combat. In order to gain more value out of that specific and unique asset of the army (that also gives your opponent pause on decision making), we have to use fast moving units, that can punch hard enough to move after combat. That gives us the Maw-Krusha and the Pigs, who can move far enough after combat, to make an impact in your next turn, or your opponents next turn. Historically, I have been using a lot more ardboyz in my boodtoofs lists (35 boyz) But I think there is some interesting list design in that concept and I would like to explore it further.. I definitely do not think this would be the most competitive army in IJ and definitely not Big Waagh, but it is fun as hell and it has a unique design space. I like to think of it as Melee KO haha @Kasper Thanks Good to know!

Great points, I should have been more clear. I will certainly miss out on the -3 a lot, as I love that item and it is great for clearing out hard to kill units or securing kills outright. As for the Screens, I would use 2x3 gg not the 10 man ardboyz. The arboyz are just there to sit on an objective. Given that that is the case, maybe I should just take them in a 5 man instead. Also, I am curios, how is it that Big Waagh can take the Banner boss from greenskins? I do not see them listed as allies in the book, are they just part of the faction?

@PlasticCraic Great job at Summer Smash. Looks like the green boyz showed up! Great to see the hard work of testing and playing, pay off. Anything specific insight or observations from your games that you would like to share. Perhaps surprising interactions or units that did better than expected?

Hit and Run tactics Continued: I have been thinking a great deal about how to improve upon bloodtoofs and I keep coming to a point where i want more min units of Gore gruntas. I think the ability to have two units of 3 hit an enemy unit, and then reposition one of them, could be very powerful. I still believe that Ironfist (6x pigs with boss) is the best battalion to run with this because you can auto teleport outside 12 and then move them with mighty destroyers, into a great charge position. I have been thinking about the list below quite a bit and I think it could work out well. I have also thought about taking out the Maw Krusha (replace with footboss) and just adding more pig units as well. This build should have some solid CP generation as well and can keep up with repositions. Also at 1960, you can expect to get a triumph most games. Allegiance: Ironjawz - Mortal Realm: Hysh - Warclan: Bloodtoofs LEADERS Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460) - General - Command Trait : Get Da Realmgate - Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa - Artefact : Quickduff Amulet Orruk Warchanter (110) - Artefact : Aetherquartz Brooch Orruk Warchanter (110) Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90) - Allies UNITS 6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320) 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160) 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160) 3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160) 10 x Orruk Ardboys (180) BATTALIONS Ironfist (160) ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Extra Command Point (50) 1960

Great insight! This is a very tough matchup for IJ specifically. I will mix in the concepts into my Big waagh force.

Bowing out. Many of the things I said were not taken into your response.

This will be the last post I make on amulet vs -3 as it has now hijacked the conversation away from Bloodtoofs play style. 1) this math does not make any sense at all. With re-rolls, rend becomes increasingly more valuable. Take phoenix guard for example, -3 will give them only the 4+ feel no pain save, as opposed to a 5+,4+. I will take that every day of the week and twice on Sunday. As @Malakree pointed out, Mortek guard are on a 6+,6+ instead of 4+,4+. I'm not understanding your argument here. 2) Again in my bloodtoofs build, I need to WIPE the unit I am fighting because I want smashing and bashing and the ability to use "break through da line", if I find it advantageous to do so. 3) The "Meta" (which doesn't have many of the units you mentioned, except for mortek) is a subjective term to your location and shouldn't be used as a staple of an argument, as if it is the end all be all. This is what is considered a logical fallacy. 4) with ethereal amulet, instead of -3, I will be spending CP's on hero phase fighting because I didnt wipe out my target, thus limiting my unique ability that Bloodtoofs CA Provides. I have played 40+ games with Bloodtoofs since the book came out, many of them with trying out both builds and I will again stick with my choice given my play style and that of Bloodtoofs command ability, which I am trying to maximize. What we have hear is the common "math hammer" vs "practical hammer" argument. I have literally tested these things extensively on the tabletop and have developed a style that works for me. I never said that etheral amulet was not good etc. I am only giving my thoughts on Bloodtoofs and the manner in which I played them, with high success. If you would like to get out there in tournaments and prove it otherwise, even better! That gives us even better information to work with.

Sorry man I do not agree. Again I can minimize my MK taking damage in plenty of different ways. I have played with both and I value the rend very highly as it lets me start or continue my SaB chain. You cannot use Break through da line with enemy's within 3 inches. The extra rend secures kills. Let me be clear, I think ethereal amulet is fantastic but for my playstyle and my army build, the -3 works much better.

@Malakree Now we are talking! Nuance is very important and we are misleading other players when we make blanket statements, that have little actual relevance. I feel as though many times people lump in IJ, Bonesplitterz and Big waagh into the same basket, when they all play very differently and have very different strengths and weaknesses. We as orruk players, need to do a better job of teasing these apart because it does not shine a light on the important aspects that can make each individual army successful and unique. No matter how hard Big Waagh tries, it will not be able to make up for Smashing and Bashing (I have had 5+ smashing and bashing chains before) but it brings other things to the table, that IJ cannot replicate; IJ can never recreate Drakkfoot etc. In my view, the key is to understand what the unique characteristic of that Allegiance/clan is and play into that strength as much as possible, in order to maximize its value. As for your question about how to deal with 3x20 hgb builds one of the few superior things that we have over them is mobility. I would argue that you just go for the objectives and tie up their blocks, by tagging their units 2.9 inches away and stringing them apart. If they make mistakes with leaving heroes unprotected, go after those. I am not going to lie, this is a really tough match up and its an extreme uphill battle. There are some armies that are hard melee counters (again another reason why IJ is NOT an alpha strike esq. army, we need to make precise strikes to be successful) and there is not much one can do haha. ******THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE A ****** ARMY, THAT CANNOT COMPETE IN MELEE***** it means we must understand our strengths and weaknesses and try and compensate for those weaknesses as best we can (most of the time with our INSANE speed). @Ravinsild Ive played against eels a couple different ways: 1) In the same way you played it, turtle up and make them make a choice. If he does nothing, you throw on Violent fury and stay put as well or create a bit more space, but don't over extend and give those eels space to get deep into your lines. Now he just lost his advantage because you have been able to buff yourself up, without loosing anything. If turn 3 comes around and he gets to always strike first, think about maybe throwing up the waagh in his combat phase so that you have the ability to punch back powerfully. 2) I get aggressive if he has left vulnerable units in his deployment zone and there are lots of objectives. Make him choose where he brings on his eels by giving him too many options to choose from. Separate your threats. Get on those objectives early in his deployment zone. Make him bring those eels in to counter charge you, instead of going on the aggressive against your lines. Hope these help!

@Kasper @DerZauberer 100% ya'll are correct; there is a ton of gas and different builds in the IJ book. All of the subfactions are strong and can be played effectively. They just have different play styles. I have been playing Da Choppas recently and will be taking them to a big GT soon. I expect to do well with them. I have seen a ton of talking heads in here saying how the army is only an alphastrike army and cannot fight with top tier melee armies etc. This could not be further from correct because it is actually not designed to be an alphastrike army. Try this out next time you play: View the game through the lens of Smashing and Bashing. You are looking to create a 3 fight combo, before your opponent can go again. This means playing patiently and setting up your SaB chain. An alpha strike does not allow you to do this effectively; instead, use IJ's amazing mobility to set up the smash and bash chain and position yourself for this, with your speed. @Malakree 1) Please don't tell me the manner in which I play my army lol. No I do not use my army as an alphastrike army. Alpha strike is a tool, not the method to actually play IJ effectively; eventually people will learn this, the more they play the army. 2) I have never had problems with CP's. Play patiently draw them in and then use two hammers (in my case, 6 pigs and a -3 maw krusha) to get a combat string going and take out their important pieces. 3) I will always argue that Smashing and Bashing is so powerful that it has plenty of use cases in which it is better than the Big waagh bonuses. Again see my #1 comment

@Kasper My list was a megaboss on MK (general) with -3 rend and fast un (fast un matches really well with the CA for bloodtoofs), 2 x warchanters (fixin and get em), Megaboss on foot (amulet), 6x pigs, 2x10 ardboyz, 1 x15 ardboyz, extra CP, ironfist. This allows you to alpha strike with 2 units, waagh and dip out turn 1 if it is available to you. Or you hold on to it for a later point, pull your enemy in and then drop in behind them with pigs and use multiple CP's for repositioning. 6 teleporting pigs is insanely powerful. Fyreslayers and plaguemonks are very different. Fyreslayers, I try and just tie them up (use a unit to tag them 2.9 inches away) and kill the rest of their army outside of the HGB blocks. For plaguemonks, I just sacrifice my ardboy 10 man units. I play very conservatively with my MK and Pigs, until i see an opening to strike. I can virtually attack any point on the field with both these units, as my maw krusha moves 28 inches and the pigs are an auto teleport. I use my ardboyz as screens in multiple lines in depth so they cant just blow past them all in a turn. My chanters and megaboss sit at the back of the board buffing, until it is time to strike. I ALWAYS have the 2 warchanters in range of both the pigs and the Maw Krusha and the pigs Mighty distroyer is always in range of the 15 ardoyz and the MK. @PlasticCraic a good example was my game one of masters. I was facing Daughters of kaine on focal points, I alpha strike their army with pigs and a maw krusha, killed 50 witches and then used a CP to move my Maw Krusha all the way to the edge of the board. I got on virtually all the objectives and basically made my opponent choose between going after my maw krusha (making them follow me all the way to the edge of the board) or go after the objectives. In my opinion, much of this game revolves around mentally fatiguing your opponent and abilities like "break through da line" give you substantial tactical flexibility.

@PlasticCraicI have been running Bloodtoofs since the book came out and have done quite well with them in highly competitive tournaments (see AoS Shorts Texas masters bloodtoofs, 4th place); yes you are correct ardboyz are great with +4 to charge but the real secret tech is teleporting the 6x pigs with the ironfist boss outside 12 inches; this then allows you to mighty destroyers move them 3 inches out of the enemy unit, with +2 to charge. I then use a Megaboss on MK with -3 weapon to compliment this and begin the smash and bash chain (with either the pigs or MBMK) and look to get 3 units fighting before the enemy can go. I highly rate bloodtoofs as a clan as a guarantee teleport is pretty game breaking, especially with the level of powerful spellcasters that are in the game now. The mobility on a bloodtoofs army is INSANE especially with their command ability, that mitigates the drawbacks for aggressive play. You can go in, execute a unit and then bounce out behind screens etc.