If the new GHB brings some or all of the Ironjawz point cost reductions that we're hoping for, would running a Weirdnob with a Balewind Vortex be viable?

[Thomas Lyons]

2 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Thinking on it more, is it not just simply a case of Matched Play's reinforcement points/summoning rules effecting/altering the rule on the Warscroll?

I know that is already the crux of what we are saying, but is it really any different to the FAQ on Kroak, or a Tzaangor Shaman not being able to duplicate spells in Matched Play? We know that rules on the scroll are sometimes altered for Matched Play, that is accepted by all.

So sure, you can dismiss the Vortex, then summon it back later. In Open/Narrative that's cool.
Then you get to Matched and have to adhere to the additional rules there. We know that a summoned warscroll costs reinforcement points, right? So why would it suddenly become "free" the second time around? It's not a case of taking it off and jsut setting up the next turn or whatever. It explicitly refers to it being summoned again...why would this bypass the reinforcement cost? Literally nothing suggests that.

I'm trying here guys, but honestly am really struggling to see any reason this would be "free" on a second summoning.

Agreed Chris.  I just don't see anything that would treat this separate from summoning another group of Plaguebearers for example.  The clause that it can be dismissed until summoned again doesn't mean it doesn't need to be paid for again.  I'm not convinced those are rules text, and if they are, there are a lot of assumptions that have to be read into them to let you resummon for free in Matched Play.

[Voc]

Oh @Chris Tomlin I was just writing a whole big rant in favour of @Solaris's argument above regarding the Chameleon Skinks.  I was 100% against paying the additional points for the second vortex but - then I read the rules!

Yeah, literally, following the rules as far I can see it:

• Step 1.The player sets aside reinforcement points for those units added (or replaced) by spells or abilities (GH p.108). Assuming the BWV counts as "a unit".  (side note - if it does count as a unit then it must belonging to the same Grand Alliance as the army because if not, it can't be a reinforcement unit per FAQ to paragraph 2 of p.108)
• Step 2.  Player summons BWV and the BWV unit enters play following the unit reinforcement rules. To follow GH p.108 as written (para.2) the first step is the subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points.
• Step 3.  In the hero phase the BWV is removed from play following the Held Aloft rule.
• Step 4.  As per the Held Aloft rule, the rules for summoning are followed - see Step 2.

The issue here is the last sentence of Held Aloft which uses the term "summoned again".  Where this differs from the Chameleon Skink rule is the fact that (as previously stated) the unit are purchased and follow the special rules of the unit, rather than the expressed rules of the game for summoning.  BWV clearly states "summoning" and if it is considered a unit then if must follow the rules for reinforcements.  However, if it does follow the rules for reinforcements then does it comply with the FAQ - is it part of the same Grand Alliance as the rest of the army?

 

[Solaris]

Then please explain why Chameleon Skinks are free the second time around. As I said, I'd be more inclined to agree with you if you think these should also cost reinforcement points.

[Voc]

1 minute ago, Solaris said:

Then please explain why Chameleon Skinks are free the second time around. As I said, I'd be more inclined to agree with you if you think these should also cost reinforcement points.

They do not enter play because of a spell or ability which allows you to add units to your army.  The key words here are add and your army.  The skinks are already in your army so you are not adding them.  I agree that once you remove your skinks from play, you redeploy them using an ability but you don't add them to your army because they are already part of it.  

24 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Agreed Chris.  I just don't see anything that would treat this separate from summoning another group of Plaguebearers for example.  The clause that it can be dismissed until summoned again doesn't mean it doesn't need to be paid for again.  I'm not convinced those are rules text, and if they are, there are a lot of assumptions that have to be read into them to let you resummon for free in Matched Play.

See paragraph 2 of Reinforcements p.108 of GH "Each time a unit is added to an army during a battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points".

 

[Solaris]

7 minutes ago, Voc said:

They do not enter play because of a spell or ability which allows you to add units to your army.  The key words here are add and your army.  The skinks are already in your army so you are not adding them.  I agree that once you remove your skinks from play, you redeploy them using an ability but you don't add them to your army because they are already part of it.  

See paragraph 2 of Reinforcements p.108 of GH "Each time a unit is added to an army during a battle, you must first subtract the number of points the unit would cost from your pool of reinforcement points".

 

Nowhere is it started that a Flamespyre Phoenix is added to your army when it is reborn though. It is set up again as per an ability on its warscroll just like the Skinks.

[Voc]

3 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Nowhere is it started that a Flamespyre Phoenix is added to your army when it is reborn though. It is set up again as per an ability on its warscroll just like the Skinks.

The rule Phoenix Reborn makes no mention of being a "summon" but is also paid for and factored in to the points cost of the Flamespyre unit itself.  I had Vlad do that to me in a game where my Brutes smashed is face it good only to have him come back to life 9" away from them.  They had to spend a full extra turn smashing his face in again...

GW could well FAQ and change the BWV Held Aloft rule but until then...looks like we've got to pay for it twice etc, etc

[Voc]

Oh game changer guys @Solaris

Generals Handbook FAQ page 2. Nuf said, discussion closed #dropsmic

so does this count if the scenery DOES have a points value #mindsblown...

[Furious]

Does a piece of scenery count as a unit? You don't interact with it the same way you do any other unit. 

[Solaris]

8 minutes ago, Voc said:

so does this count if the scenery DOES have a points value #mindsblown...

Probably not  I still don't think it's resolved. For the record, I don't care much either way. I just want a consistent interpretation that works in all similar, but slightly different, instances. There are three separate cases here:

1) Unit is destroyed and set up again (Flamespyre, RoI, Skarr, Ardfist, etc...).

2) Unit is removed by the controlling player and set up again (Camo Skinks).

3) Summoned scenery piece is dismissed and summoned again (Balewind Vortex).

Regarding 1), in the GH it is stated: "Sometimes a spell or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed. In a Pitched Battle, you must set aside some of your points in order to be able to use these units." The word "replace" indicates that the Ardfist has to pay, since you bring in a new unit that replaces the old one. In all other examples in category 1) , the SAME model is set up once more (i.e. the unit is not replaced), but still the FAQ clarifies that the RoI requires reinforcement points. Do these all cost points then? If not, which ones do, and why?

Regarding 2), the unit is not destroyed, and would therefore not cost points to bring back based on the GH wording.

In 3), the case is different from the others. Here we have a piece of scenery, which may or may not be treated as a unit. It requires reinforcement points and is summoned. It can then be dismissed, and the SAME one can be summoned again. There is no precedent for this. No unit in the game can be removed and SUMMONED again, although many units can be removed and SET UP again. The Vortex cannot be slain, and is not replaced, so if it is treated as a unit I would argue that it does not cost reinforcement points the second time around. As soon as it is summoned the first time, it is part of your army. From that point, it would fall into category 2). If the Vortex is not part of your army once summoned, then neither are summoned units which in that case cannot award victory points. If the Vortex is not treated as a unit, then there is simply nothing we can compare it to.

[Nico]

That FAQ answer is out of date and no longer applies to the Balewind Vortex (new rule often trumps the old rule).