Ward Saves and redirecting wounds

[Riyathe]

Couple questions here from observing my opponent in a recent tournament that surprised me a bit, so want to doublecheck a few things.

 

1) Settra next to a tomb herald, as an example i do 6 wounds on settra with no rend, she saves 1 with her normal 3+ save, she then saves 1 with her 5+ scarab/ward save, then another wound with her 6+ deathless minion save.. 3 wounds go through. Opponent decides that tomb herald is going to use sworn bodyguard to take the remaining 3 wounds. Opponent then rolls 3 saves at 4+ for normal save and saves 1, then rolls twice for the remaining two wounds with a 6+deathless minioons save and saves 1. Result: 1 wound on Tomb Herald

Does this look ok to you?, i would interpret the reading of the sworn bodyguard rule that he should choose where the wounds go before saves are rolled. i found it very difficult to apply damage with my opponent basically getting double saves and wards and deathless minions in this way and it just doesn't seem correct to me. Maybe i am wrong.

also:  If the attacks did 2 damage each for example and my opponent is rolling ward saves for each damage like he did as described below in question 2 i've no idea how he would transfer the damage into normal saves on the tomb herald.

 

2) General ward save question, if i do 2 wounds with 2 damage each. He has a normal save of 3+ and a ward of 6+, he rolls 2 save rolls for the wounds and 1 fails. That 1 wound that goes through then requires 1 or 2 ward saves of 6+?

 

3) When rolling for mystical terrain in hero phase does this have to be done before command abilities etc or you can choose to do it at the end of the hero phase?, i had different opponents contradicting each other on this.

 

Thanks! 

[Nico]

Quote

Ah, OK. I don't think it's in any of the books I own (general's handbook, Sylvaneth).

It is in the Sylvaneth book.

A sensible interpretation is that you can only bounce once with the Heralds, not bounce it between them.

Otherwise there is the Nagash 4 Heralds and Kemmler list of zero fun or point for anyone. 

[Hans]

This goes against 4pages rule of having fun. I pretty sure it will get rules against by GW. 

[Squirrelmaster]

The FAQ says you can have multiple different wards, not that you can use the same ward over-and-over against a single wound.

[Nico]

The FAQ has already said you can have multiple ward saves - hence comping the bouncing makes sense.

I would need to tweak the wording of what I said earlier - I meant not using the same ability twice in a manner such as Red Fury or bouncing wounds. If comped it would probably need to specify the abilities by name.

[Squirrelmaster]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

Where an ability doesn't expressly state that it can be used multiple times by the same unit in the same turn - the default interpretation should be that it only works once.

Umm… no. I'm pretty sure you don't mean that. Unless you think that Settra's Broach only works against the first wound suffered each turn, that a Tomb Herald can only use his Sworn Bodyguard ability once per turn, etc.

Red Fury is arguably covered by the 3rd Rule of One - it is an ability that generates extra attacks, so those attacks cannot themselves trigger any ability that generates extra attacks. It's not watertight wording, but definitely enough to justify a sensible interpretation.

I'm honestly not sure this discussion is going anywhere, though. We've agreed that, by strict RAW, two heralds are basically indestructible, as is any character within 3". We've also agreed that this is a gamey rules exploit that should not be allowed. Precisely how best to rule against it is pretty subjective — there's no rules support for saying "no double DM saves", and there's no rules support for saying "no re-directing a redirect". It's down to which option you personally find least abusive.

I regard anything that gives you two DM saves against what is effectively a single wound, to be rules-lawyery abuse. I regard bouncing a wound from one Herald to the next (so long as one of them eventually takes the wound) to be a perfectly legitimate combo. I regard using multiple Heralds with Kemmler's Invigorate spell as a broken combo in need of comp, but not really rules abuse. That's all just my opinion, though.

[Nico]

It's not covered by the Rules of One, but by analogy it's contrary to their goal of eliminating infinite loops. Where an ability doesn't expressly state that it can be used multiple times by the same unit in the same turn - the default interpretation should be that it only works once.

[Hans]

The tomb herald look like a real exploit if it just bounce back n forth the same model. Be that guy and you prolly will win the tourney but loss of game buddy.

not too sure about red fury exploit, the generation of additional attack had already been fix by rules of 1. Non match play are open as it is open.

[Squirrelmaster]

8 hours ago, Nico said:

The obvious answer is to assume that it's a single use ability - you cannot redirect a redirect - the rule is silent as to whether you can do or not - simply assume not. Anything else would just nerf the single Tomb Herald case, which isn't fair or necessary.

This method also fixes any Red Fury exploit.

I don't think there's any point in arguing whether nerfing the single herald case is "fair", since that is very subjective. I think he could still be very much worth having even if we only allow a single DM save. As for "necessary", I think we've already agreed that the rules-as-written need to be changed somehow, it's just a case of finding where to make the change, that makes the most sense. I think far more people would find multiple DM saves counter-intuitive and exploitive, than redirecting-a-redirect.

As for any Red Fury exploits, you'd have to explain that one to me, I'm not familiar with them and can't comment.

[Nico]

The obvious answer is to assume that it's a single use ability - you cannot redirect a redirect - the rule is silent as to whether you can do or not - simply assume not. Anything else would just nerf the single Tomb Herald case, which isn't fair or necessary.

This method also fixes any Red Fury exploit.

[Squirrelmaster]

reductio ad absurdum

I never had any intention of being "that guy", I introduced that idea as an example of why I think the rules need tweaking here. But if we're going to introduce a comp / houserule / common-sense-interpretation that prevents people from doing this, I think it would be best to establish exactly what that rule should be.

Passing wounds from one herald to another is not, by itself, a problem, imo. If Deathless Minion saves were ruled to always go before (or always come after) the bodyguard rule, doing this would offer little to no benefit of just sticking both heralds within range of the original character.

Likewise, even bouncing a wound back and forth endlessly between two or more heralds isn't a problem, if you're not getting any kind of save in between. You're going to have to decide which one takes the wound eventually.

It's when you start using the herald to take multiple DM saves against "the same wound", that it starts to feel like a rules exploit to me (as opposed to just a very cheesy OP combo, which there are ways to deal with).

[Nico]

Quote

That said, the first time that is attempted by a player in an organized event, the TO is going to immediately comp it on the spot.  

Absolutely right. 

I warned Mo Ahraf about the Nagash, Kemmler and 4 Heralds exploit a year ago - it's a waste of time for all concerned.

However, this shouldn't be used to nerf the use of a single Herald which is a key strategy for keeping heroes alive.

[Thomas Lyons]

On November 14, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Squirrelmaster said:

I'd also be inclined to say that you can't take Deathless Minion both before and after the Bodyguard rule, as otherwise two heralds within 3" of each other would make themselves, and any other death hero within 3", completely indestructible — you would just bounce the wound back and forth between them until one of them made a save. Or did I miss something again?

Rules as written (with FAQ) allows you to infinitely bounce wounds between two heralds until they get negated by the ward save.  That said, the first time that is attempted by a player in an organized event, the TO is going to immediately comp it on the spot.  If you do it in a friendly game, you'll likely either not have friends to play with any longer and/or be picking your miniatures up off the floor.  

It is completely legal and also completely broken.  It is bad rules writing and an oversight.  If anyone uses this tactic at this point, it isn't clever, its exploitive of a known flaw in the system.  

Don't be that guy.  

[Hans]

Failed mystical terrain test doesn't stop your from using your abilities, just cannot cast spells, move or attack. 

Usually we roll at the start of hero phase, but the rules did really state when must u roll, just that u need to roll if you are within 3" and do it in your hero phase.

[Squirrelmaster]

2 minutes ago, Riyathe said:

To determine damage you have to have a target that is suffering wounds to make the calculation (some units halving damage etc) right?

No, to determine damage to have to have a target that has taken a successful attack.

It's the determine damage step that decides how many wounds will be inflicted — so 1 attack with damage 3 will cause 3 wounds if successful, never 1.

Special saves like this are always taken after determining damage.

[Riyathe]

1 hour ago, David Griffin said:

@Riyathe As an aside, is there a reason you refer to Settra as a female? Just curious.

LOL i dont play TK so assumed its a girls name.

1 hour ago, discoking said:

It's in the hints and tips section of the various books available so the controlling player can choose when to use each special ability.

I have reread the H&T section, in this case the Tomb Heralds ability can only be activated " Each time a Death Hero from your army suffers a wound or a mortal wound whilst within 3" of this model" and by following the attack sequence i think this would be immediately after the armor save.

from the FAQ "such special saving throws are taken after damage is determined and as each individual wound is allocated to a model that has such a save"

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Ah, OK. I don't think it's in any of the books I own (general's handbook, Sylvaneth).

Still, I understand that many players regard the h&t as dubious / not actual rules.

I'd also be inclined to say that you can't take Deathless Minion both before and after the Bodyguard rule, as otherwise two heralds within 3" of each other would make themselves, and any other death hero within 3", completely indestructible — you would just bounce the wound back and forth between them until one of them made a save. Or did I miss something again?

I think this says it all, imagine, you take 2 tomb heralds and 1-2+ other heroes and keep bouncing wounds off the heralds forever..unkillable heroes, there has to be an order for applying the special saves and i believe as far as the FAQ / H&T give us from GW redirecting would have to occur before special saves. Would be great to get an official word on it but i think people doing 2 deathless saves are stretching the boundaries a bit, even using the scarab before redirecting is.

 

 

[David Griffin]

@Riyathe As an aside, is there a reason you refer to Settra as a female? Just curious.

[discoking]

3 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Ah, OK. I don't think it's in any of the books I own (general's handbook, Sylvaneth).

Still, I understand that many players regard the h&t as dubious / not actual rules.

The hints and tips aren't rules buttell you how to use the rules.It's as official as it gets in my book

I'd also be inclined to say that you can't take Deathless Minion both before and after the Bodyguard rule, as otherwise two heralds within 3" of each other would make themselves, and any other death hero within 3", completely indestructible — you would just bounce the wound back and forth between them until one of them made a save. Or did I miss something again?

I wasn't actually refering to the question the OP asked but your reply above.Sorry I should have been more clear in my reply

 

[Squirrelmaster]

6 minutes ago, discoking said:

It's in the hints and tips section of the various books available so the controlling player can choose when to use each special ability.

Ah, OK. I don't think it's in any of the books I own (general's handbook, Sylvaneth).

Still, I understand that many players regard the h&t as dubious / not actual rules.

I'd also be inclined to say that you can't take Deathless Minion both before and after the Bodyguard rule, as otherwise two heralds within 3" of each other would make themselves, and any other death hero within 3", completely indestructible — you would just bounce the wound back and forth between them until one of them made a save. Or did I miss something again?

[discoking]

12 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

8th edition Warhammer: Fantasy Battles, and the current Warhammer: 40,000 rules both state that when effect trigger simultaneously, the player whose turn it is decides what order they resolve in. As far as I know, Age of Sigmar has no such rule, instead saying to discuss it with your opponent, or roll a dice and the winner gets to decide.

Personally, I would apply the broach, then the bodyguard rule, then the Deathless Minions rule, just because that seems fair to me.

It's in the hints and tips section of the various books available so the controlling player can choose when to use each special ability.

[Riyathe]

yep i'm following you. its a shame its unclear when the wound(s) transfers to the Herald (before or after initial targets special saves). For me though i think it flows like a flow chart after determine damage to redirect wound (YES/NO) and then carries on to final targets special saves.  (even then it doesn't quite make sense as in reality you are using initial targets armor save before choosing whether to redirect but at least its closer to what i would perceive actually happening)

[Squirrelmaster]

The terminology in AOS can be a little confusing, the process is:

1. Make an attack
2. Roll "To Hit" — on success, you now have a hit
3. Roll "To Wound" — on success, you are now "causing damage" (not wounds, despite the name of the roll)
4. Make regular saves — on failure, the attack is "successful"
5. "Determine Damage" — this decides how many wounds are inflicted on the unit
6. Allocate wounds to models

No actual "wounds" are suffered before step 5 is complete (after saves have been taken). In other words, there is (strictly speaking) no such thing as "1 wound with damage 2", rather it is "1 successful attack with damage 2, which therefore causes 2 wounds".

Mortal wounds basically replace steps 1-5 with their own mechanic — inflicting a mortal wound on the unit, which then proceeds to step 6, as above.

Settra's broach steps in between steps in some time after step 5 (or the "mortal wound" step), probably after step 6 but it's not really clear, since step 6 is kinda moot for units of one model.

Deathless Minions definitely triggers between steps 5 and 6, but whether it triggers before or after the broach is, again, unclear.

The Herald's bodyguard rule triggers, again, between steps 5 and 6, but again, it's not clear whether it comes before or after the broach, before or after Deathless Minions.

What is clear is that the bodyguard rule negates the wound that would be taken by Settra, then inflicts a mortal wound on the herald, taking us back to the "mortal wound" step.

So, the bodyguard would definitely be able to use a Deathless Minion save against the wound he suffers from the bodyguard rule, it's just not clear in what order the broach, Settra's Deathless Minion roll, and the bodyguard rule should be applied in.

8th edition Warhammer: Fantasy Battles, and the current Warhammer: 40,000 rules both state that when effect trigger simultaneously, the player whose turn it is decides what order they resolve in. As far as I know, Age of Sigmar has no such rule, instead saying to discuss it with your opponent, or roll a dice and the winner gets to decide.

Personally, I would apply the broach, then the bodyguard rule, then the Deathless Minions rule, just because that seems fair to me.

*Edit: just noticed the bodyguard rule is automatic, not a roll. Doesn't really affect the rest of what I said, though.

[Riyathe]

After some review of the FAQ i believe it was clarified on page 5

Q: When a model/unit has a special saving throw arising from an ability that can be used whenever they suffer a wound or mortal wound, is it taken after normal saves but before damage is determined (i.e. between steps 3 and 4 of the attack sequence)? A: No, such special saving throws are taken after damage is determined and as each individual wound is allocated to a model that has such a save (see ‘Inflicting Damage’ on the rules sheet). For example, a unit of Phoenix Guard is attacked by a Cannon. The Cannon successfully makes its hit and wound rolls, and the Anointed fail their save roll. The Cannon therefore inflicts D6 wounds in step 4 of the attack sequence. The roll is a 4, inflicting 4 wounds on the Phoenix Guard. The attack sequence is now over, and the wounds are set to be inflicted on the Phoenix Guard. However, the Phoenix Guard’s Witness to Destiny ability means they ignore a wound or mortal wound on a roll of 4 or more, so as each wound is allocated, a dice is rolled, and on a 4 or more it is ignored.

So the term 'wounds suffered' refers to damage inflicted after step 4 on the attack sequence but before any special saves have been made.

It would then follow that any wounds transferred to the Herald happen before Settra makes its scarab/deathless minions save.

So, Settra normal save -> choose either settra takes her scarab and deathless special saves (for each damage) OR transfer each damage into a mortal wound and deathless special save for the Herald.

[Riyathe]

*removed to avoid confusion

[Nico]

In the top example, the Herald takes mortal wounds, so only gets the 6+ ward - not the armour save. 

Question 2 - roll 2 "ward" saves.

Question 3 - the player whose turn it is decides when. I have a house rule that you have to roll if you were within 3" of it at any time during the hero phase (if you teleport from it or to it), but you can still delay rolling until the end of the turn.