Starting Off with Phoenix Temple ft. Island of Blood

[Lumi Jo]

I'm a new adopter of Age of Sigmar through my friends, some of which are established 40k players, and we've all bought in with an escalation league. Starting with 500 points, we'll be adding 250 points every so often until our hosts are a proper 2,000 point army. For myself, I have some old, unassembled Island of Blood High Elves, and wish to move in the direction of Phoenix Temple. I'm not entirely sure how Swifthawk Agents work, but even if the Island of Blood models aren't available to use as-is, I can always have them count as something else.

With all that said, I'd like to know what options are available to me. I've already planned on having my force consist of a backbone of:

- Phoenix Guard

- Anointed-as-General

- Some amount of Phoenixes, though I'd like to avoid going completely overboard.

It should be noted that I have yet to make a purchase on the above.

I understand that Phoenix Temple itself is a rather limited group, but as Cities of Sigmar I'll be able to pick an Allegiance as an archetype, and Phoenicium looks very on-theme and definitely seems appealing, the Living City also seems like an option, as I'm not a fantastic painter except for wood, and thus having a handful of Sylvaneth, possibly as elites, would be wonderful.

The wealth of options I have available has me at a bit of a loss as to where to start.

[readercolin]

So the question is do you want Phoenix Temple as an army, or do you want to run a unit or two of Phoenix Guard?  Cause these are 2 very different things.

For running a unit of Phoenix Guard in your army, the standout example is Hallowheart.  Here is an example force:

Annointed (foot)
    General
Celestial Hurricanum w/ Battlemage
Battlemage
Battlemage (or runelord)
Knight-Incantor
    Adjutant

30 Phoenix Guard
20 Irondrakes
10 Longbeards
10 Handgunners

Whitefire Retinue
Everblaze Comet
Soulscream Bridge
Emerald Lifeswarm

This army is designed around running a deathstar.  The goal is to use the soulscream bridge to throw most of the army forwards, using the Phoenix Guard as a wall that is preventing your opponents from getting to the squishier guts inside.  Then the irondrakes can be hitting on a 2+ due to the hurricanum, wounding on a 2+ due to Ignite Weapons, re-rolling 1's to wound due to the longbeards, all with -1 rend (alternatively, you can swap 1 of the battlemages for a runelord to be able to buff that to -2).  Meanwhile the mages would be able to drop the comet and put some wounds on clusters of squishy support hero's/units, and then back that up with additional mortal wounds from the other spells.  The handgunners are just here to fill battleline requirements and to have something that can sit back and hold objectives.

Running a more pure Phoenix Temple army, you have a choice - do you want to run more phoenix's, or more blocks of guard?  For an MSU style of play, I recommend checking out razortree productions as he has a few battle reports with the Phoenix Temple, as well as a solid video on why he likes having units of 10 guard instead of blocks of 30.  Here is an example army that I would run if I was looking to do more phoenix's and less guard:

Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix
    General
Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix
Annointed on Flamespyre Phoenix
Battlemage
Battlemage
Knight-Incantor

10 Phoenix Guard
10 Phoenix Guard
10 Phoenix Guard
10 Phoenix Guard

Everblaze Comet

This gives you a solid force that can hold objectives with 4 MSU phoenix guard.  Then you have some ranged damage available with the 3 battlemages and the everblaze comet.  And lastly you have 2 tough to kill Frostheart Phoenix's to act as little wrecking balls, and then a flamespyre to dish out mortal wounds and maybe some damage in melee.  This army can work in basically any city, but standouts would be Hallowheart and Living City as probably the top 2, followed by Tempest Eye and Hammerhall as the next best 2.

If it isn't Phoenix's, but instead Phoenix Guard that makes you want to play, then you can look at running 3 blocks of 30.  Here is an example list:

Annointed (foot)
    General
Battlemage
    Adjutant
Annointed (foot)
Battlemage
Battlemage on Celestial Hurricanum

30 Phoenix Guard
30 Phoenix Guard
30 Phoenix Guard

Emerald Lifeswarm
Primsmatic Palisade or Quicksilver Swords

This army is looking to maximize the power of blocks of guard.  1 block of guard gets the general and adjutant accompanying them.  The second gets the other annointed and battlemage, and the 3rd gets the Celestial Hurricanum (alternatively, if you really want to troll people swap out the hurricanum for a Luminark so they have a 4+ FNP AND a 6+ FNP).  This build works well in Hammerhall - General gets Blood of the Twelve + twinstones to give his surrounding guard +1 to hit and rr1 to wound, while another unit gets +1 to hit from the hurricanum and the 3rd gets re-roll wounds from Annointed command ability.  It also works well in Hallowheart due to running around with 3 mages.  Tempest Eye is an option for more mobility turn 1, as well as giving one block of guard an extra attack due to Aura of Glory.  The other cities don't really give worthwhile bonuses to this force though.

Beyond the basics of how many guard/phoenix's you want to run, there is 1 very important thing to keep in mind with a force that includes Phoenix Guard.  The guard have a 4+ FNP, but are still 1 wound models.  Effectively, this makes them 2 wound models.  However, they still only count as 1 wound models for bringing them back with the emerald lifeswarm, and the emerald lifeswarm always brings back d6 in the cities, not just d3.  This means that if you are running large groups of guard, a lifeswarm is an EXCELLENT spell to bring along, as you get more bang for your buck bringing back Phoenix Guard than just about any other unit in the game.

[Landohammer]

So most players I know of field the Island of blood models as Swifthawk agents with Swordmaster allies. You would have to do some pretty extensive proxying to field those models in Cities. It would be fine for casual games but tourneys may or may not allow it.  

If you want to field your models legitimately, then you really only have 3 options in terms of factions.

Swifthawk Agents - They don't have a faction rule, so you will be using Order allegiance abilities, command traits, and artefacts, but you unlock Spireguard  as battleline. You can then field your Swordmasters as allies.

Eldritch Council - This is an option if you have plenty of Swordmasters and its quite nice since Swordmasters are unlocked as batteline. But you would have to squeeze all of your Swifthawk agent stuff into your ally allotment which may not be realistic.

Order - You lose your batteline unlocks but now  you can field any Order unit you want without any restrictions. Fortunately Reavers are universal battleline so if you have 15 of those guys you are good to go.

Hope this helps!

 

 

[Lumi Jo]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

[snip]

Hope this helps!

It definitely clears up some questions that I had about Swifthawk Agents, even if I'm really not a fan of the answer. I have plans to proxy the Mage in there as a Battlemage or something, and possibly some heavy conversation work to put the Prince on a Phoenix might be cool down the line. You've basically convinced me not to bother with fielding them as-is, which is unfortunate, but not horrific.

 

6 hours ago, readercolin said:

So the question is do you want Phoenix Temple as an army, or do you want to run a unit or two of Phoenix Guard?  Cause these are 2 very different things.

 

I definitely want Phoenix Temple as my army. I like Phoenix Guard, I love phoenixes, and the Anointed, either mounted up or on foot, are very cool to me. I just also wish to take advantage of some of the diversity that CoS offers aside from that. The lists you've provided give me great insight towards what could be done, and though none are 100% to my tastes I definitely appreciate it. The second one, featuring 3 phoenixes and some guard and casters, is probably the closest, but it and the third both have merits. Emerald Lifeswarm looks fantastic as a piece to have.

What I'm really looking to get out of this thread is less a specific build option and more simply helping myself to understand what build paths I have available. For example, starting around 500 points and building from there, if my starting force was the following:
 

1 Anointed

1 Battlemage

10 Phoenix Guard

10 Phoenix Guard

It's 510 points I know, but in a casual escalation league not really being taken seriously until we build up more it's not a big deal. The question is, where could I go from there?

What makes Phoenicium playable? Are there Sylvaneth units that are good enough to play Living City from time to time? If I'm running Phoenix Guard, do I want other varieties of short-range battlelines? These are the sorts of questions I'm really looking to answer, to get a feel for a new game.

[readercolin]

48 minutes ago, Lumi Jo said:

1 Anointed

1 Battlemage

10 Phoenix Guard

10 Phoenix Guard

It's 510 points I know, but in a casual escalation league not really being taken seriously until we build up more it's not a big deal. The question is, where could I go from there?

Again, do you want to be more guard focused or more phoenix focused?  And how much non-phoenix guard do you want to run?  I gave a few viable options above, though not the only options by any means.  However, you really do need to decide if you want to run a single block (or multiple blocks) of 30 or multiple blocks of 10.  I really struggle to come up with a good reason to run a block of 20 though. From there, then you need to decide what is going in the rest of your army - more phoenix guard, more phoenix's, or other non-phoenix temple units.

53 minutes ago, Lumi Jo said:

What makes Phoenicium playable?

Phoenicium is a tough city to play in.  None of the bonus's that it gives is really stands out much over what other cities can give you, and they can be hard to use.  The only "good" list I've seen was looking to run Flaggelents which get buffs when they lose models, and then the phoenicium gives buffs when units die, and you can combine that by using the command ability on a block of flaggelents to let them pile in and attack after they die.  For everything else... you will probably get more mileage out of another city.

54 minutes ago, Lumi Jo said:

Are there Sylvaneth units that are good enough to play Living City from time to time? 

Allarielle is nice as a huge centerpiece.  Kurnoth Hunters can also be quite powerful, though you do have to ask whether it is worth running them over say, evocators.  Drycha is an interesting option, especially to come in off a board edge, shoot, move and then charge.  And Tree-Revenants are interesting as they have the ability to teleport anywhere around the table, making them an interesting threat.

54 minutes ago, Lumi Jo said:

If I'm running Phoenix Guard, do I want other varieties of short-range battlelines?

Other short range battleline are useful as a screen.  So you could consider taking say, a block of freeguild guard or dreadspears to give your opponents something that they have to run over before they can smash your more expensive phoenix guard.  Another option would be something like Handgunners to use as a screen, because they get to stand and shoot if they get charged, which makes them slightly more effective as a screening unit.

[Lumi Jo]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Again, do you want to be more guard focused or more phoenix focused?  And how much non-phoenix guard do you want to run?  I gave a few viable options above, though not the only options by any means.  However, you really do need to decide if you want to run a single block (or multiple blocks) of 30 or multiple blocks of 10.

Truthfully, I'm not sure I have an answer yet. I've not really played enough to gain experience to say, but if pressed I'd probably say I'd prefer to have blocks of 10 rather than blocks of 30, if only for variety's sake. Based on that, a phoenix focus, then?

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Phoenicium is a tough city to play in.  None of the bonus's that it gives is really stands out much over what other cities can give you, and they can be hard to use.  The only "good" list I've seen was looking to run Flaggelents which get buffs when they lose models, and then the phoenicium gives buffs when units die, and you can combine that by using the command ability on a block of flaggelents to let them pile in and attack after they die.  For everything else... you will probably get more mileage out of another city.

Thanks for clarifying here. The durability of Phoenix Temple units, coupled with an inability to actually resurrect models in Phoenicium makes it seem a bit in conflict with what it actually wants to be doing. Maybe if I was running the Emerald Lifeswarm, which was a great thing to point out to me, by the way. I'll definitely be running one of those.

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Allarielle is nice as a huge centerpiece.  Kurnoth Hunters can also be quite powerful, though you do have to ask whether it is worth running them over say, evocators.  Drycha is an interesting option, especially to come in off a board edge, shoot, move and then charge.  And Tree-Revenants are interesting as they have the ability to teleport anywhere around the table, making them an interesting threat.

Allarielle (or Drycha, to a lesser extent) would be a neat project if I can justify it alongside all the phoenixes. Kurnoth Hunters are better than Evocators by virtue of me preferring them over Stormcast. Sylvaneth, as I said, is more just a bit of flavour because I really love the models but don't want to go all-in on actually fielding an army of them. A unit of Dryads here or a squad of Hunters or Revenants there would be enough for me.

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Other short range battleline are useful as a screen.  So you could consider taking say, a block of freeguild guard or dreadspears to give your opponents something that they have to run over before they can smash your more expensive phoenix guard.  Another option would be something like Handgunners to use as a screen, because they get to stand and shoot if they get charged, which makes them slightly more effective as a screening unit.

This is good insight. Phoenix Guard don't strike me as too expensive, so I was having trouble  justifying something like Eternal Guard or Executioners, but if Dreadspears or Guard can fit in the army as well, then that's good to know.

[Landohammer]

8 hours ago, Lumi Jo said:

Truthfully, I'm not sure I have an answer yet. I've not really played enough to gain experience to say, but if pressed I'd probably say I'd prefer to have blocks of 10 rather than blocks of 30, if only for variety's sake. Based on that, a phoenix focus, then?

Thanks for clarifying here. The durability of Phoenix Temple units, coupled with an inability to actually resurrect models in Phoenicium makes it seem a bit in conflict with what it actually wants to be doing. Maybe if I was running the Emerald Lifeswarm, which was a great thing to point out to me, by the way. I'll definitely be running one of those.

Allarielle (or Drycha, to a lesser extent) would be a neat project if I can justify it alongside all the phoenixes. Kurnoth Hunters are better than Evocators by virtue of me preferring them over Stormcast. Sylvaneth, as I said, is more just a bit of flavour because I really love the models but don't want to go all-in on actually fielding an army of them. A unit of Dryads here or a squad of Hunters or Revenants there would be enough for me.

This is good insight. Phoenix Guard don't strike me as too expensive, so I was having trouble  justifying something like Eternal Guard or Executioners, but if Dreadspears or Guard can fit in the army as well, then that's good to know.

Hey just popping back in for some quick comments. I am just finishing up a Living City army now so you are asking a lot of the same questions as I did.

-Resurrecting Models - Note that the Living City doesn't actually provide the ability to resurrect models. The auto Heal and the spell Lifesurge both only heal wounds. Lifeswarm is the only method that I am aware of for resurrecting models in Cities.

-Sylvaneth - Alarielle is an awesome model but note that she does come with some baggage: Her base is too large for the living city deepstrike, and her AOE heal and command abilities only work on Sylvaneth units. You will also need to physically purchase a unit for her to summon (likely Kurnoth or Treelord), since she is costed to include her summonable unit. Also her spells can turn units into forests, so having a wildwood is nice. Again, she is one of my favorite models, but fielding her competitively is quite expensive lol!

Kurnoth are amazing, but I would avoid fielding Dryads or Revenants in any Cities army. Dryads are outperformed in battleline role by many Cities units and Tree Revenants lose most of their value if half your army can deepstrike. If you have batteline unlocks, (such as Phoenix Guard) then I recommend you use those as much as possible.

[Dis_Interested]

I'm sure you've already looked at how to proxy your models, but if I may make some suggestions:

Seaguard , swordmasters, mage = dreadspears, executioners, and sorceress. Good for battleline fill and magic support

Seaguard, swordmasters, prince = freeguild guard, greatswords, general on griffon. Decent internal synergy.