Fanatics and Nasty skulkers

[Mayple]

1. Can fanatics (moonclan grots) hide inside another unit of fanatics, provided the unit they are hiding inside has 5 or more models?

2. How would that play out when you release the fanatics? Would you release the first unit of fanatics, charge them, then release the second unit and charge those, or would the first fanatic unit spew out the second fanatic unit immediatedly? I'm expecting the latter, but wondering about the former

 

Same questions regarding the nasty skulkers (gitmob grots) hiding inside other nasty skulkers. Would their activation be "Nasty skulkers pop out, nasty skulkers 2 pop out of nasty skulkers." - or "Nasty skulkers pop out, attack. Nasty skulkers 2 pop out of nasty skulkers, attack, and so on." ?

 

Thanks! 

[BaldoBeardo]

3 hours ago, Mayple said:

1. Can fanatics (moonclan grots) hide inside another unit of fanatics, provided the unit they are hiding inside has 5 or more models?

2. How would that play out when you release the fanatics? Would you release the first unit of fanatics, charge them, then release the second unit and charge those, or would the first fanatic unit spew out the second fanatic unit immediatedly? I'm expecting the latter, but wondering about the former

 

Same questions regarding the nasty skulkers (gitmob grots) hiding inside other nasty skulkers. Would their activation be "Nasty skulkers pop out, nasty skulkers 2 pop out of nasty skulkers." - or "Nasty skulkers pop out, attack. Nasty skulkers 2 pop out of nasty skulkers, attack, and so on." ?

 

Thanks! 

Can't be done.

Host unit is not on the table at the start of the phase, therefore cannot be used as a jumping-off point for an ability that specifies it must be used at the start of the phase.

The "resolve multiple abilities in any order you see fit" doesn't apply because you cannot resolve the 2nd unit until you have resolved the first, therefore they cannot compete for being resolved at the same time which is the qualifier.

There's nothing to stop you russian-dolling them over a couple of turns though.

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Can't be done.

Host unit is not on the table at the start of the phase, therefore cannot be used as a jumping-off point for an ability that specifies it must be used at the start of the phase.

The "resolve multiple abilities in any order you see fit" doesn't apply because you cannot resolve the 2nd unit until you have resolved the first, therefore they cannot compete for being resolved at the same time which is the qualifier.

There's nothing to stop you russian-dolling them over a couple of turns though.

Figured. While I agree that it sounds about right, I'm inclined to ask;

If they both have to resolve at the start of the phase, but neither of them is at the table at the time, and only one of them has an on-table host unit, wouldn't it still be at the start of the phase after the first unit pops out? 

To clarify what I'm wondering; (For clear terminology; Host unit contains unit A contains unit B. Unit A and B are skulkers/fanatics activating at the start of the charge/combat phase respectively, so I'll simply refer to "the phase" to keep it simple, since I think they're similar enough)

- Start of the phase:

1. Unit A pops out of Host unit. 

2. Unit A carries out their special activation. Skulkers pile-in and attack, fanatics charge.

3. ???

 

When does the "start of the combat/charge phase" stop being the "start of" ? I would assume after step 1, but wouldn't that leave room for unit B to also eject between step 1 and 2, in the sense that we'd still be "at the start of the phase" in the same way we would be if, for example, six separate skulker units/fanatics were hiding in six separate on-table host units and all popped up at the same time (phase) (although still in some form of order) - as they would all be able to do that during the "start of the phase" regardless of their numerical value, or am I looking at it all wrong? To put it differently; the number of things I'm able to do in the start of a phase is surely not limited to one, so wouldn't it be possible to enable the requirements for a secondary set of actions by first activating a primary one? In this instance, the "spawning" of the fanatics/skulkers should potentially enable the second one to activate, provided their own activation doesn't somehow push us past "start of the phase", no?

Sorry if that sounds convoluted. 

As a sidenote; I'm assuming that step 2 is not part of the "start of.." phase, even if skulkers immediately attack, and fanatics immediately charge.

 

[BaldoBeardo]

I know it's dangerous territory, but the reasoning is based on logic.

There's two ways you can read the rules, I guess - 1) all abilities stating "start of phase" must be resolved before others, or 2)any ability that states "start of phase" must be able to be resolved before any other ability is resolved. Subtle difference in meaning. I believe it 's 2.

"If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities f irst, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. "

The issue here is that before you resolve unit A, unit B cannot declare it is going to resolve - it cannot be "used".

If you had another unit - C - in a different unit of grots, then it runs "I have to pop units A and C, but I'm going to resolve C first " If you can't declare unit B as part of that sentence, then it's not happening as part of the sequence you are deciding for "start of phase" abilities - so it can't be done at the "start of the phase" because it doesn't meet a requirement at the start of the phase. As the ability specifies that's when it must occur, it cannot occur that phase.

Where this gets tricky is (and I can't find an example OTOH) is if you have - say - 2 start of phase abilities that can be placed on a unit (say, 1 it can charge and 1 it can attack). It would feel right you do one after the other, but we still have the same chicken-and-egg effect, namely you can't attack with the unit until it's charged.

This is all based on my reading of the core rules, errata and commentaries. It's certainly worthy of an FAQ because it's still ambiguous.

The stopper for me though was that you could in theory have infinite units of fanatics / skulkers nested and sequentially pop out a conga line across the board, which doesn't seem like an intended option

 

[Mayple]

@BaldoBeardo

Just to adress the last point; Nasty skulkers and fanatics can't conga line. All their models have to pop out within 1" of their host unit. It says so in the destruction faq. So that wouldn't be an issue

[BaldoBeardo]

39 minutes ago, Mayple said:

@BaldoBeardo

Just to adress the last point; Nasty skulkers and fanatics can't conga line. All their models have to pop out within 1" of their host unit. It says so in the destruction faq. So that wouldn't be an issue

Nope. You have to resolve abilities totally before moving on to the next one. The ability for fanatics isn't just the set up, it's the resulting charge (if eligible) as well.

So A would pop and charge. Then B would pop and charge. Then C...

[Mayple]

24 minutes ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Nope. You have to resolve abilities totally before moving on to the next one. The ability for fanatics isn't just the set up, it's the resulting charge (if eligible) as well.

So A would pop and charge. Then B would pop and charge. Then C...

Oooh! You mean the pop and charge all takes place in the "start of.." phase? I see what you mean then, regarding the conga lining.

If not, I was reffering to their deployment only