KO Thunderer GHB2017 Changes Information Gathering Poll

[Nico]

Basically the Thunderers can sit in the Frigate and deliver a capacity efficient volume of short range firepower.

The Ironclad on the other hand can deliver more total damage with a 20 of Arks.

[Cerlin]

The changes take a good amount of spice out of the unit, but to be honest the point cost hits me harder than the weapons change.

When I read the rules I could see the stack cheese potential, but I liked the rifle rules, so my only unit has 3 rifles, a cannon, and a mortar. I will probably just change the mortar and be happy with the unit.

I am sad the army I am working on learning is getting nerfed but I am happy GW is responding to balance issues in warscrolls. I hope they keep doing it, but also stay aware of how the changes can effect the fans, even the guy who spent 400 bucks to power game it. He is still a fan too.

[Bedge]

For me it's the lack of consistency that irks. Storm friends have been around for ages with their lovely warpfire projectors. You don't see the other weapon options. Extremely unfun unit to face.


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[Mordeus]

Yea it was weird to only see the Thunderers getting a change. I feel that in the last two years or so, many other warscrolls could have benefited from a modification. The fact that they chose the most recent book is also a bit annoying, makes a lot of products obsolete.

They say that you can take one of each gun for each slice of five dudes. Is playing one of each guns better than having only one and rifles for the rest? Unless I misread the rules.

[Lomack]

I think they should / could have just put out a note on units being worked on, of considered, with a warscroll change.
It means that the existing warscrolls are valid until the GH2 releases, but it gives ppl a heads up.
Separately.. what's with the khemist rule change in the leaked errata, that's not even in the book.
?!




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[Lomack]

I Think your right with the reason, GW need to say this though and apologise for not writing the scroll correctly in the first place, should never have made the tome if that was the intention.  Wonder what they are gonna do with the Tomes and ref cards?  Keep selling them with a bogus scroll? Or withdraw and reprint.

Totally agree, and it didn't need any playtesting, it just needed a hobbyist (rules designer) to sit with a draft of the book, and do some list building for a few hours, like your average min-maxing hobbyist. (I mean. That's what we do when we list build.. we look for synergies, and points bargains)


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[Lomack]

Honestly?  I suspect it is twofold. It's the common sense change for new players to the faction so that those players get the actual bits that a unit can build with in the box itself.    This obviously isn't all of it though since similar changes haven't been implemented on Arkanaut Company, Stormfiends, or any of the other units with similar equipment situations.  
I suspect it's also to head off the hypothetical Thunderer apocalypse of Mortar or Aethercannons deathstars that will supposably dominate the tournament scene.  I say hypothetical because this has never been manifest in reality.  KO have never won a major event and there aren't even reports of any heavy thunderer lists showing up.  The irony is that if this really is their intent; they've missed the mark completely.
In fact, you can do almost the same stuff with heavy Company lists, and yet this is still fully viable.  If balance is the issue, they still haven't fixed anything with KO; power gamers are just going to stack Khemist buffs on Company's Light Skyhooks and Endrinrigger's Chainsaws.  The issue has never been mono-weapon; it  has always been an issue of stacking buffs.  In this circumstance, it has to do with Khemists; the TK nerf was about stacking bonus to wound buffs.  
Ultimately, all of these are treating symptoms of a systemic problem. Unfortunately, I've had this exact conversation with Ben Johnson in person, as well as providing a write-up for GW on the issue. Thunderers are just the most recent victim and scapegoat to the systemic problem, and until it is addressed, units will continue to fall victim to these huge nerfs into uselessness.
So, in the end, I'm sure they had "reasons", but I'm also fairly certain they were misplaced and not fully understood.  That's probably more than what you asked for,  it's my answer.

I agree with your post... and.... Khemist buff incoming..

Also.. I find it hard to understand why they can't see your logic.
They must be able to. Surely.
In which case it's about selling the boxes.. cause as is 'this box gets you one model for your unit' is a terrible sales pitch, and I think it's great they align the rules with the box.
Overall KO balance though .. urghh..
and why not just a quick article on the community side listing on units being 'potentially considered' for changes?
They could even have it as a living article , getting gradually updated. (Like Mantic's design and playtesting forums.. though I'm not even advocating going that far)


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[Lomack]

Bold/emphases added by me.  This.  This is exactly my point.  People reacted without proper testing and experience.  The reality is that 10 Cannons would get 1 round of shooting, possibly 2 (if the KO player doubled turned and there were more enemies still within range) before they would get wiped off the table.  They were extremely fragile with no actually means of self defense if something go into them.  Once they were dropped onto the table, their low mobility coupled with short range made it easy to keep them out of the fights where they would be actually needed after their initial volley.  The problem with these Thunderer units is that they were a powerful yet limited tool.  
Now Thunderers aren't even functional for their points and KO have been restricted to having only 3 playable units and 3 overpriced ships that are of limited functionality as well.  This is obviously compounded by the fact that they only have one battleline option and 3 of their 4 heroes are now 140 points and the other one is pretty worthless.  This move has shifted KO back towards basically spamming a single attack or two to even have a shot at being competitive. You'll see one or two builds of KO crop up in the competitive scene and that'll be it.  The emerging meta will be dominated by masses of bodies, and KO will likely struggle to compete, as they'll simply be overwhelmed.  Armies that can't deal with 90-120+ Bloodletters are going to struggle to perform on top tables, and KO simply don't have an answer to those kinds of forces.    

Agree with you
I was trying to drop a deepstriking Ironclad in 1500 Ltd tournament recently
What I found was that my army was a glass cannon.. and it needed the cannon half of this to stand a chance, and even then , playing for objectives meant killing lots didn't really help me much. Khemist buffs on riggers was the only alpha strike I had. And I paid a lot of points for an ironclad , riggers, and khemists to make that work.
The opponent had a LOT of bodies/ wounds. Ironjaws.. beastclaw.. even seraphon, Ice mammoth just came a dealt with my khemists when he wanted to etc.
Maybe these changes are good for army balance and less cheese.. but the army is now just a glass. (No cannon).


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