[Legion of the first prince - incarnate]

Two questions, can legion of the first prince armies include incarnate despite the line, "units in this army must have the demon/chaos keywords" and if they can include an incarnate, would they gain the lotp  keyword "as all units in this army receive lotp keyword" line.

 

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

48 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

I can safely say that in my local meta there are no lumineth or Seraphon players. I think someone may have a Nagash. Destruction and Chaos are popular here but not Tzeentch, Nurgle and Khorne are popular and we have 1 dedicated Slaneesh player who won’t play anything else and has no other armies. 
 

There are death armies around I know a few people who have them, such as Gravelords and OBR however I’m not sure if they’re actively used. One of the death player also has like 8 other armies including Ironjawz and I’m not sure what army he’s using atm. 
 

Stormcast Eternals, Cities or Sigmar and Sylvaneth are popular I know at least 3 Stormcast players who are running the newest units. Overall my meta is pretty weird. Ogors of all types are popular so are Gargants. There’s no elf lovers among us, so I’ve never seen DoK or Lumineth although we used to have a Deepkin player but he sold that army. 
 

I think the most relevant the meta could be for me personally is if I went to a local event called Nashcon which I think I have been told is the biggest tournament in the South Eastern United States but I have no way of knowing if this is true or just event propaganda to get people to attend. That, being a tournament, is probably far more likely to have the kinds of armies you’ve been talking about but since I’m a slow painter my army is never ready on time. It’s in August though so I feel like a lot could change between now and then, and the meta could look completely different based on FAQs and which Battletomes get released and so forth. 
 

All this to say I think I agree with Holy Diver in that there must be more than 1 way to skin a cat. There can’t only be 1 true way to run Ironjawz and make them work, there’s got to be more in the book than that. 

I think if you read over the initial exchange between Broche and I and you'll see that I do think there's a grey area in list building. The whole exchange initially was me mentioning taking out hand of gork from the list due to point increases on GGs and less need to counter unleashed hell with teleport/fast un' combo-- I obviously rate it highly.

Now do I think the changes in the winter update are going to dramatically alter what has proven to be our most dominate build archetype ... no, not really. Do I think many have a misconception on why these lists are so much more dominate than others, very much so.

That said, I wholeheartedly believe it's hard to build a "bad" IJ army unless you're trying to do it intentionally. My meta is basically me playing netlist, after netlist in preparation for GTs so my perception of what is best is obviously skewed with certain matchups in mind. Your mileage may vary if these prolific GT lists are not what you're playing against regularly. 


 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

31 minutes ago, Holy_Diver said:

And then? You are starting by a list that near everyone can study, because it won a big tournament (months ago).

Assumed this, let's analyze that choice in the current situation:
- lost the 5+ ward on MK (dataslate)
- lost the possibility to heal MK in CC (dataslate)
- lost 2 units of GG (point rise)
- Stormdrakes appeared!
- new Nurgle appeared!
- new Kragnos appeared!

Now, "5x3 GG" how can they solve these new problems? You can skirmish with paper screens (admitted and not granted you had destroyed they) and then step back.
Let's be honest: when the pairings are selected the only thing you can do is hope to not to run into someone who has a minimum of vision of game, because if you are "zooned out" you have no way to recover the game.

So a spell that enters at the 55% of probabilities, and can be rerolable, is unreliable? Instead a 42% (with no buffs) is relieable?
And who are those  chads of sorcery that dominates the actual magic phase?

I have buffs to cast on the build I posted with bash ladz, for one. It's +2 to cast base, with potential +4 (much better than a reroll when you factor in unbinds btw!)  You're not accounting for unbinds in your success chance of getting teleport off. I really don't know what to say about the "Chad wizards" you have not been encountering (which explains a lot), Kairos in tzeentch and legion, lumineth, seraphon ( the most represented faction at top tables in the last few months.) 

We're not talking about one list that won months ago. The vast majority of GT winning IJ players ran some version of double mk,  warchanters, ggs. You can hand wave the data off based on your personal assessment of the vulnerability, but at that point we're just arguing about what we FEEL is good rather than what is actually consistently working. 

That said, I'll let this conversation go. I don't doubt your experience, I just have a very different one based on the gt scene and following the larger meta closely. 

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

With enough Ironjawz games, I started to play with Big Waaagh... it's crazy powerful, much more than before imo.

Now, the plan is to have fun with our swamp cousins, currently building the doominion box set...

I wouldn't day it more powerful than in AoS 2, not by a longshot. That said, I've been playing around with a big waagh list with manskewers, sludgeraker, wurgog prophets, GGs, Warchanter, foot boss, and 5x3 ardboyz with good success. Manskewers actually help the prophets gain a ton of value forcing the opponent toward you. GGs, warchanter, footboss don't need explanation. It's been pretty fun playing more of a combined arms list

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

Unfortunately I disagree with the teleport, for the simple fact that it is possible to use the "master of magic" command trait on any wizard (or arcane tome hero). In this way we not only have an almost guaranteed cast, but also a good antimagic.
I find the footboss a very good bearer of this tactic, for his point cost, after many playtests.

Talkin in general, I see many many people in this forum (look at the dragons topic for example) thinks "if an army is good to do one thing, that thing is the only way to play aginst anyone". That's a ****** bigger than a skyscraper.
In my group this philosophy of listing is called: "mono-mossa" (in english I think is "One-Trick-Pony").
Example: Ironjawz must alpha strike or, even going second, maximazi dps turn one? And what happens if you fail at it? You very lost.
So all the conceptions of one drop listing, relying all the games only on 3 warscrolls (MK+pigs+chanter) and concentrate a lot of points in a bunch of wounds (Idol or double MK) is like think of winning a formula 1 race just by accelerating.

The list I posted is slightly altered version of a top 3 list at Austin open, most of the 5-0 lists since the book drop(vast majority) are double MK,GG, Warchanter lists. Master of magic doesn't stop actual Chad casters from stopping the teleport, it barely makes hitting the casting value reliable... That said, you're basically going with the "brute force" the spell through method which I've already mentioned. Since by nature the casting in IJ is unreliable even going with brute force, the argument is that you go with spells that have broadly general utility regardless of the board state rather than one that has higher utility, only in specific moments. 

What you and your group don't realize are these lists are not alpha striking with 3 hammers T1 unless the opponent makes a deployment mistake. They skirmish with the units of 3 ggs,  peel screens , bloodtooth end of combat move to lock down mobile hammers, move back onto objectives after clearing screens and triple redeploy to avoid counter punches. put their hammers out of harms way and use MD/fast un to close gaps once they see an opening. You're attributing a play style used in these lists based on your experience, Im guessing, not the reality of how good IJ players play. 

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

16 hours ago, broche said:

With the point increase of GG and amulet gone i'm also theorizing single krusha list (with arcane tome) and more body is the way to go. On my side i would probably go for foot of gork on the krusha and hand of gork on an extra foot wizard

@Andrew G i don't dislike your list. However i'm unsure about the rogue idol.I'm not sure it's ever gonna worth it's point value in Ardboys / gruntas / brutes unfortunatly

I personally moved away from teleport now. It's situationally very impactful, but unless you want to have your wizard back-boarding with another unit the entire game to avoid unbinds (even then, this requires your opponent to basically back line castle himself) you'll need to brute-force it through with a Touched by the Waaagh caster (which is also not entirely reliable in this meta). Knowing I have little to no reliability in the spell casting, I rather have spells like Foot/ Bash Em' Ladz that usually net some type of value regardless of what turn they go off. Basically, while teleport has a higher peak value, you probably will not get off the turn that it actually matters. In an already high mobility army, and with the unleshed hell nerf... I'm just not seeing the value although it remains entirely viable. 

Not directed toward you, but I'd just say that I think people are not doing the math on how good Bash Em' Ladz actually is. The +1 wound is absolutely massive DPS increase that allows you to hit key damage thresholds on multiple units at once. For example, a unit of 6 pigs does 35 damage to a 3+ save unit reliably rather than just feasibly with Bash Em Ladz. In the era of the save stack, you're in very little danger of "wasting damage" if you can do some quick mental math.

Point taken on the Rogue Idol, it's not worth it a straight comparison to Brutes or GGs. It's mostly there because it fills the one-drop neatly. I've been playing without battle regiments the whole edition, but it's undeniably powerful to choose who goes first. It can outright win you some games on certain scenarios. That said, I think I'll play around with some list ideas that stay 1 or 2 drops but drop the Idol. 

Thanks, as always. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

I've been out of the loop for a month, but I'm guessing the double MK meta may shift to something like this due to the amulet change (not drastically different than before mind you). 
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)*
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Command Trait: Touched by the Waaagh!
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (115)*
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)*
- Jagged Gore-hackas
Rogue Idol (430)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
Drops: 1
 

I ran 2 MK/ double Warlord battalion (or my actual filth list of 1 MK and 21 GGs, but that list is out the window now) prior to the Winter update. Mostly with Amulet/Smell Un' MK and my general MK with Touched/Arcane Tome/ Fast 'Un. 

Points changes on GGs took double Warlord off the table for me - even if possible, I don't think it would even be worth now with the amulet change. Before, most people had their damage sponge MK and the "techy" MK with either Destroyer/Arcane Tome. I'm waffling on which MK archetype to include now.

It was a no brainer with how Amulet worked previously, but I'm starting to think the "Tech" MK builds are going to be the way to go. You can mitigate a lot of the potential threats by just standing an MK 30"+ and still threaten charges/ big buffs out of unbind range.   Bash Em' Ladz is ridiculously high value in IJ, and I'm leaning toward the Arcane Tome build. Especially with the inclusion of a Rogue Idol.

That said, it will only take a few games of getting my single MK shot off by longstrikes or sentinels T1 or top of T2 to change my mind on that (will the 6+ ward even really help anyway... not sure).  I've been able to play around the DOK double-tap fairly effectively, but it may be just because the local DOK players are not as strong as the SC/Lumineth guys in my area.

Anyway, just some initial musings now that I'm back from vacation and had some time to consider the implications. Wondering what the consensus is for the rest of you (if there is one) for what min/maxed IJ lists are going to look like. 

[The Winter Rules Update]

2 minutes ago, Doko said:

I dont think nothing have changed,the same s tier armies remain as s and a tiers are a tier yet,but the gap betwen s and a is bigger now.

Only changed the lists of these s tiers,as tzenth change his archaon list for other only tzenth lists or seraphons change his salamander spam(8+) for estegadon spam and 2 salamanders etc

Idk, SCE was on the rise in A-tier and they went completely unscathed. Wouldn't be surprised if they kept creeping up.
Amulet change has bigger impact on IJ, Sons than most other top performing armies (they're still going to be ******-kicker armies, no doubt)
ETC. ETC.

I think we're mostly in agreement, really all this is doing is shuffling around the rankings of the top ~8 armies, but none of these armies are going to bumped out of the top spots and we won't have any new armies introduced into the ~55+ % winrate bracket.

Meanwhile, we have like 6 or so armies at sub ~40% winrate and they will remain there. 

[The Winter Rules Update]

I'm skipping quite a bit of the discussion, but a couple things...

How the hell did Fulminators fly under the radar? Foxes?

This was advertised in the Warhammer Community previews as "Focused on bringing under-performing units/armies up", which clearly doesn't seem to be the case. For example, last time I looked at stats, Gitz was looking at ~30% winrate at GTs yet they got close to nothing to address that.

Even if they have a book on the horizon, would it really be that crippling to meta to give some of these underperforming armies a 5% to 10% points decrease across the board in the interim?  

Anyway, definitely better than nothing, but I think all this did was reposition some of the S-tier armies to A-tier and some of the A-tier armies to S-tier. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Im not sure how you incentivize running 1 MK lists. Do you really need the bodies? Probably not. You can still go for a 2 drop army with 2 MKs (although no artefact on the 2nd) so even the temptation of low drops is kinda whatever. Also a lot of people have proved that yo ucan do well with 10+ drops. 

I absolutely love my Pigs - The speed is amazing and the output is great. Im not sure how you convince me to use Brutes unless Pigs just get hammered into oblivion. Even without rend 2 at release I was still favouring Pigs over Brutes simply due to the speed alone. You would have to make some massive pts difference between the two units for me to really consider.

Another issue is the ranged damage output of some armies - If you werent forced to engage turn 1/2 (otherwise shot off the board) I would value Brutes a lot more, but I feel like you need the speed. If Pigs are just hammered in the winter FAQ I kinda worry where Ironjawz will sit in the meta.

Its also wild to me that Mega Gargants have been able to survive for so long and completely warped the meta and how people build lists for MONTHS yet Ironjawz come in and do well for a couple of weeks and everyone are losing their minds.

 

This so hard. Speed is our survivability at the moment, and is also why we are well positioned in this meta where half of the top armies are designed to completely cripple you in 2 turns from 24+ inches away (40k is fun!). 

Other armies do slower survivability per point, and synergy hero redundancy list way better (SBGL as an example) which is the only other melee archetype that fairs well on paper against longstrikes, bow snakes, sentinels, Seraphon, and tzeentch ranged projection lists. 

I'm just worried that the sentiment of, " Ironjawz and Sons are brain-dead armies, so if they're winning they must be broken" has been echoed enough that GW is going to be a little hamfisted with the points changes. 

[Unpopular opinion thread]

3 minutes ago, Kasper said:

My issue with true line of sight is that it directly causes issues with 2 huge aspects of the hobby for me. 

First off it makes any bases you create a disadvantage if they elevate your models that dont want to be sniped. The reserve is obviously true for your shooting units.

Second off it really messes with conversions, kitbashes, proxies etc. which are all a big part of the hobby. Models might suddenly have a different size, pose etc. 

It absolutely baffles me that true line of sight is a thing considering what this hobby is made up of.

 

Completely agree, you can slice it from a gameplay or hobby perspective, it would better serve the game better to change how LOS works. 

It's honestly not complex at all to implement (rules light wargames like KoW do it fine) and I do think it potentially adds a lot from tactical perspective as well. There's scrambles for archers to get to hills first to see over the enemies infantry lines to snipe support characters, distraction carnifexes can be arrow sponges for the little guys behind in a more meaningful way,  you can mitigate damage against you slow foot slogging hammers with shield infantry in front, etc.  Overall, I think it adds a lot to a wargame like this without a lot of rules bloat, it only benefits the hobby like you mentioned, and it also is just... cleaner, IMO.




 

[Unpopular opinion thread]

1) No shooting unit should have more than 12" range unless it's artillery. Adjust points down to compensate. 

2) True line of sight is stupid and they should implement a fixed height system for all units/terrain based on type, and better LOS determination rules so you can't claim LOS because you see under a models feet or their hand is raised. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

So after several more games I've come to the following conclusions.

 

Ardboys

They work really well in 5s (duh) and the 15s are solid but require way to much babysitting from your warchanter. Its so easy to end up outside of the bubble and/or get tied down. While significantly better than in 10s the new bravery stat, and fact it has to come from the boss, makes them incredibly command point intensive in an army which always needs more as it is.

Warchanters

2 just isn't enough, you always need more of the buffs and if even one dies your damage tanks. Brutes/ggs are so much worse without the buffs.

Pretty much lines up with common wisdom and my own experience as well. I personally only ever take 'ardboyz 5x3 to go Ironsunz. Very rarely just an odd unit of 5 to fill on points.

3 Warchanters is absolutely minimum for me, and I don't know how people play with less. It's especially perplexing when I see 1-2 Warchanters and they're not even shooting for a one-drop. 
 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Thanks for the post @Malakree. Seems like it's overwhelming consensus here in the US is very close to what you mention from the UK crew. Everyone is running some version of 2 MK, 3 warchanters, 12 pigs ( I prefer 1x6 and 2x3) in Bloodtoofs. Obviously, there's a lot of variation with artifact/mount trait set-ups. Here's the one I prefer: 

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- General
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Command Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
- Lore of the Weird: Bash 'Em Ladz
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (480)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Smelly 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Warchanter (115)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (90)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (150)
- Jagged Gore-hackas

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120
Drops: 10
 

The General MK is staying out of threat range (literally back corner of the board against some lists), hopefully out of unbind range, and using Fast'un to jump in the fray once the opportunity arises( usually T2 w/ waagh after some skirmishing).  

That said, I'm sticking with my 21 GG/ 1 MK list because I like to think I'm a unique and special snowflake and arguably think it's just as good. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

3 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Exacly, as i said ypu break coerency with bloodtooth movement if no enemy within 3" , so when you charge with 6 gruntas you have to kill enemy unit . So you dont have enemy within 3" !:)

Ok. I must have missed that there was any type of movement that can break coherency. 
If true, yeah!

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Better than Christmas day! The change of wording for the Megaboss ability was a more elegant solution than I anticipated. Only problem is I need to switch weapons on my 21 Gore Gruntas now (not that big of a deal, I love the way the hackas look).

I've never really had a problem getting all 6 gore gruntas within an inch while maintaining coherency, but 2" reach is a really nice plus. Getting the 2+ mortal wound on charge without losing combat phase efficacy, chefkiss* 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Its true every single post imo. True  bloodtooth is good for 6 gruntas, anyway many unit of them can cover all map! I think they are more versatile!

There is anothrr problem, bloodtooth able us to make a pile in when unit fought. So if we dont lose a single grunta , and we fight with a line of 6 grunta to benefit from more damage in charge, we cant pile in back to remain in coherency... the only way to mantein coherency is kill unit we fight, so we can move grunta behind. Idk of u understood, my english is bad!:)

You can't break coherency on a pile-in move. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

5 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

9.77 wounds from grunta gore hackas at -1 rend. Plus 2.33 mortals on the charge

Vs

4 at -2 rend, 1.33 damage 2 at -2 rend and 1.33 damage 2 at -1 rend (7.99 all in)

 

Can't remember what the cut.off is where Brutes out perform gruntas. I think it's 3+, but could be 4+.

 

A lot of variables that can affect this (Unit sizes, Warchanter buff, charge no/charge, fighting 4+ wound enemy, all out attack), but assuming just warchanter buff, there's not an appreciable difference in damage unless the Brutes rend negates a save stack and gets the enemy off a 2+ save. Which is obviously very highly valuable in this meta.

Against 3+ armor w/ warchanter:

Brutes with -2 rend


Gore Gruntas with Choppas (not including MW for charge):


Upsides for me are Brutes still do appreciable damage w/o warchanter buff where gruntas really fall off. Their overall kit is just better suited for fighting 3+ armor monster heroes who can save stack and roar you. Obviously, negating 1 wound models for objective holding is situationally one of the most impactful rules in the book. 

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

28 minutes ago, Malakree said:

To give my opinion on each of them.

All out attack, defence, inspiring presence, snb and rally all just work when triggered.

Overwatch works on multiple units but they must target the charging unit. Imo they ALSO must be within 9".

Redeploy works but can only target units that are within 9" of the enemy unit which triggered it.

The 6" run applies to 3 units in range but doing so declares that all 3 will run.

The charge reroll can target 2 additional units when it is first triggered but you have to choose it then. Having done so you don't need to reroll as it says you "can" reroll the charge.

I agree with the end result of everything you outlined, but I'm much more black or white on this discussion. 

A) Either all units who receive a CA need to meet the trigger condition at the time the CA is issued (be a target of an attack, an enemy ends a move within 9", etc.)
-or-
B) One unit needs to meet the trigger condition for the CA to be issued, and then the other two selected units just need to be in range of the MB.

Picking and choosing when to apply either interpretation is just a little too arbitrary for my taste. If they wanted to get granular in the FAQ with each CA, and choose your interpretation for each CA, I'm all for it.  Unfortunately, I think they'll just pick either A and B when they clarify how the ability is supposed to work. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

40 minutes ago, dnusha said:

Analogy has nothing to do with the rules. Your point is "Megaboss issues a  command, one guy recieves it and everything else doesn't matter, two other guys must recieve CA effect and there are no restrictions AT ALL that prevents them from recieving the effect", that is certainly not the case. 

well, there would be a restriction that they would have to be wholly within 18" of the megaboss but basically you got the other side of the argument. 

Again, we've heard playtesters specifically mention that they issued all-attack through the Megaboss in their games at the studio (great examples of a CA where only one unit meets the initial trigger requirement). 

That said, I personally am tired of arguing with my local group on this (which is split down the middle on interpretation) and play it as every unit who receives a CA needs to meet the initial trigger requirement/ have "eligibility". I'll treat the FAQ as a nice windfall if it falls on the side I think it's going. 
 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Wanted to share this here. Probably the only IJ review out right now where you can immediately tell he plays at high level (besides our boy @PlasticCraic) Personal bias may be coming through here, as I mostly agree with what he has to say. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfail55zLB4

Maybe I'll relent on the double krusher aversion and try it once... Like most people who pick this army; I picked my pet unit 4 years ago (Goregruntas) and always tend to skew toward that style. One thing I completely agree with it is that winning with IJ is way more player than list. You can pretty much bring whatever flavor you want and reasonably expect 4 wins.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

19 hours ago, Warmill said:

 

Overall it felt terrible, he was rolling real hot on the armour saves and 5++ aura from gardus steel soul while I couldn't roll to save me life, but it really felt like a no win situation. 30" range on the longstrikes, a teleport, the speedy chariots and the fulmis meant I couldn't stay back and wait for him to unpack his castle, while all of his stuff was on a 3+ save and the 5++ aura stopped the few attacks that managed to get through. The krushas were absolutely terrible, losing the impact hits for the stomp is a major nerf however you cut it, especially now you can't do them in the hero phase or double stack it, and rend 1 just doesn't cut it against that kind of armour. I had hopes for the 15 ardboy rally blob but the amount of rend 2 damage 2 he had meant they were barely a speedbump. I enjoyed the first couple of games with the new book, but this just really knocked the shine off them.

 

Over half the competitive meta in my area is castle armies ( Lumineth and Seraphon being the first that come to mind) and it sounds like the first game is the classic trap of, " I don't alpha strike, I take up board space and positions T1". I'd really like to play in a meta where that's feasible, but those armies put you on the clock T1 and if you don't start peeling screens and/or locking down their ranged projection T1, it's over. 

Second game sounds like it just came to an output problem, which I've also been dealing a lot with first hand (One of the best guys in my area runs Syar- Teclis- Lumineth usually translating into most of army being -1 to hit, +1 to base armor and ignoring rend as needed, with a 5++ on top). You either need to decide if it was a truly a dice problem ( I don't want to do the math), or if you need to switch up your list so you either A) You can actually crack their anvils/clear screens B) Knowing you can't crack them but still need to start peeling, try to minimize the amount of points you're exposing to counter-charges. 

Point B is why Bloodtoofs is so good right now, and why I think double MK is a trap. Not getting into the wound/output differences between 15 brutes/9 gruntas vs. an MK,  but not being able to be as granular with what you're commiting and only having two warchanters means that if anything remotely tanky needs to be killed you need to expose your MK/MKs.

I was definitely in the no-MK camp last edition for somewhat adjacent reasons. I'm always hesitant having my synergy piece also be my hammer, but obviously eased off that because I do think this edition fooboss+ 6 pigs < first MK. First MK value is  much higher value compared to the second one (Amulet, Mount Trait, going from 0 to 1 monster matters way more than going from 1 to 2 for battle tactics, they can't bait out all defense and then switch to the other Mk, etc.) 

Just my two cents, hope you get some better games in soon. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Goregruntas weren't touched at all offence wise. The Ironjawz Waaagh! is enormous for them as having 2 rend on the choppas and 1 on the boars is dirty as hell.

Add onto that the bloodtoofs ability and if I had 18 painted I would be taking them to the next event. I think part of the problem is that once you go bloodtoofs they are so much better that you really only want to be taking 2 units of 5 ardboys for home protection and even then 3gg's fill that role fine.

Agreed. Current list I'm playing actually runs 6x2 and 3x3 for 21 total. The insane ****** you can pull off with GGs in bloodtoofs is making some of my normal opponents rip their hair out. One of the main weaknesses of this type of style in the past was Gorefist/ Waaagh stacking incentivized more of an "all-in" playstyle compared to now.

If you're good at mental math, you can commit just enough T1 to clear all screens and then lockdown all their key pieces, completely protect against the initiative roll outcome, and come in for a killing blow T2 with some of the best hammers in the game. 

edit* Probably worth mentioning that being able to threaten a T1 complete alpha-strike makes your opponent deploy sub-optimally in the worst case, and in the best case you'll win a few games outright from seemingly small deployment mistakes from your opponent. 

We're about as strong as we've ever been. Good time to be a gore grunta loving IJ player. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Sorry if this has been discussed at length, but how are you all playing the Megaboss's ability to issue multiple command abilities in cases like all out attack/defense? Do I only need to meet the initial condition to use the command point (e.g A unit makes attack in the combat phase) and then I'm free to issue it two other units within range, or do the additional units picked also need to meet the trigger condition to receive the command point (which would exclude quite a few of the command abilities)?  I'm really unable to look at this objectively, so I'm just going to appeal to authority in both cases.   

One of the Facehammer guys who's a play tester specifically mentioned issuing all out attack and defense as an option, and I'd assume this came up as he was play testing IJ.  

Vince from Warhammer weekly has the opposite take, that it "just doesn't make sense" that you can ignore the eligibility condition for the additional units chosen to receive the command point. So, that means no all attack/defense, every unit that receives a redeploy needs to be within 9' of the enemy that finished their move, etc. 

I'm not looking for some type of proof(I've seen both sides rule lawyer this and really doesn't get anywhere), but just how you're playing it in the interim until the FAQ. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Here's a couple of my competitive lists (using warscroll builder so there will be some gaps). They're all bloodtoofs -- I'll experiment with the other clans, particularly Ironsunz, later. I've played 4 games of 3.0 so far against some tough lists and won all of them. I definitely think we have some gas.  Opponents included: Lumineth - Sentinels + Teclis build , SoB -Typical 4 toddler list, Soulblight Gravelord - Dragon General  w/ -1 wound artifact, Gatebreaker , Dok - Morathi & the Snakebows

One Drop Version: I don't prefer this one, but I'm in a heavy one-drop alpha strike meta and the idea of me going first puts the fear of gork into them.  Only played this once. 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Bloodtoofs
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 2190 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 157
Drops: 8
 

The one I played more, and messed around with how the units were reinforced between games. Settled on splitting one of the GG units. Units of 3 have such a different and needed role in the army compared to units of 6, and it really helped clear chaff lines T1 without offering up so many points. That, while also being survivable enough your opponent can't clear the Goregruntas tying them down before their movement phase. I also like having the GGs in Hunters, rather than feeding them into the one-drop. The bloodtoofs ability was absolutely stellar in each of my games. Highlight being tying  up the gatebreaker and zombie dragon with a damaged GG unit after clearing his chaff walls.
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Fast 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (95)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (340)
- Pig-iron Choppas
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (95)

Total: 2160 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 147
Drops: 11