Gwendar
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Posts posted by Gwendar
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3 hours ago, Kasper said:
I joined the server, but Im not super familiar with Discord. Didnt seem like there was a Tzeentch channel, only a general Chaos one?
Yeah, there isn't one for each army.. just start talking Tzeentch and people jump in.
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1 minute ago, RUNCMD said:
I'm about to give this a listen! Nice work mate!
I got a second one this week as well.. so I'm now jinxed to lose my last 2 games🤣
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8 hours ago, Kasper said:
That sounds so crazy to me. A lot of armies are super easy to pilot and they pretty much play themselves or are super straight forward once you have slammed them down on the table. I think people get a bit frustrated playing against this kind of list because it is very unique - Typically when you play AoS you get to play your army the way you want to - It might not be good enough and your opponents army might be superior in combat/counters yours, but this list basically tells your opponent "no" or asks a question a bunch of times, which isnt how AoS is typically played. It also got a ton of tools for almost any situation - I havent really had good usage out of Wind of Chaos until now, but good grief is it insane when you are hitting a horde unit and not 5-10 model units.
I just wanted to run something that isn't really played.. which is a lot of wizards and debuffs. Some can complain that isn't fun to play against but I can also name 5+ other lists from various armies that "aren't fun to play against". End of the day I mostly just play competitive games and I personally enjoy playing against tough lists. Like I've said the before.. this list is super fragile and a double-turn against you can be really bad if Be'lakor or Kairos changing a dice roll are available.. nearly every game I've had has been 1 mistake away from a loss even if I play it nearly perfectly. I have the potential of playing vs the 3x3 Longstrike with 2 attacks each SCE list in the GT I'm in next round.. and if I do I'm pretty certain that's an auto-loss since this is super susceptible to shooting like that, but can't counter everything 😅
8 hours ago, Kasper said:Im surprised there is nearly no shooting in your local meta..
In my matchup against Seraphon I almost couldnt get my heroes within range of the objectives in fear of 2 Bastiladons just ripping apart Kairos or removing 2 squishy heroes per turn.Combining additional movement with Devolve will certainly make it stronger, but I do think sometimes it is worth implementing tricks that dont necessarily always grant you a huge bonus, but instead provides a threat that your opponent needs to worry about.
Yeah, Seraphon is rough if they have multiple threats (which obviously they usually do since everything is severely undercosted...) but Lumineth hasn't been an issue for me so far.. I've yet to play KO. I don't build lists for my local meta though, especially since I haven't played them since February thanks to Covid. I would never bring it unless they asked as I know they would struggle to play against it.
Oh you're 100% correct, I'm just saying that in this list and it's updated brother I don't really have need for it and find the stacking of -'s to hit to be a bigger threat over moving something closer. It has value in the list for sure and you've made that clear for the reasons given. Just personally I would prefer more debuffs to better control midfield when they get that close.. at least when it comes to these HD ones.
9 hours ago, Kasper said:I guess it will just require some more getting used to. In my example I had 2 blues and 18 brims left on an objective. That isnt a lot of wounds. They would probably die to 2 Bastiladons shooting the following turn, where as getting additional Pinks and using a DD 1 would secure the objective for at least 2 rounds. Rolling a 1 meant he would get the objective. Guess it is tricky to figure out if it is worth it or not.
I sometimes wish I had a screen or two of 10 Brims, especially to lock down my backline as I push forward, or simpy to layer up with screens against a potential double turn.
The third slot is kinda where Im uncertain. Geminids is great for getting extra MWs and stacking -1 to hit, especially since you dont care as much about it being thrown back at ya with the way the army plays. I havent tried Daemonrift yet. I really like the Palisade against a shooty meta and as we talked about it offers some options to really mess with your opponent coupled with a Spawn and HD no retreat.
The bottom line with Fold Reality is what risk you're willing to take. If you can risk it going off to get some Pinks back with no threat to something charging you then I'll do it if I have 20 or less. If they're still stuck in combat with something and my opponent goes next or has a chance with priority, then I'll probably keep them there since they'll be stuck in combat anyway which is better than them being freed up and having the ability to punch me if I haven't created a double layered screen. Lots of scenarios come into play with it as you're finding out.
I agree, and having not played against a ton of shooting other than Seraphon or 20-30 Lumineth Sentinels I know that's the weakness. I'm hopeful 3rd shifts the game back towards more melee, but that could also mean a list like this would get nerfed as a by-product. Time will tell... I think a change to how squishy heroes can be protected alone will change the shooting meta. Untamed Beasts are a popular pick to get a cheap pre-game move out there if that's something you want to look into.. one of my updated lists does include 10 Brims though for more zoning.
Endless spells are tough.. I really wish we could have just 1 more. Spellportal is absolutely a must have if you bring Kairos (or even a LoC probably) but I think the others are preference. I have a preference with Daemonrift since it's so absurdly strong against most armies and the ability to just auto-dispell it means it never comes back at me. Geminids can also pump out decent damage, but the debuffs can absolutely cripple units when combined with all the other -'s to hit/wound that I can easily get in the list. I have a 5 Wizard variant that I will be testing that has both, and another 6 Wizard one that drops Daemonrift just so I can see how it works without it.
Also, if you wanted to talk more list strat and get games in, Coachs discord is the best for it in my opinion: https://discord.gg/fHZySVrzEA-
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5 hours ago, Kasper said:
There is so much depth to the list, and it certainly isnt a list that plays itself unlike many other armies where you just slap them on the table and they will do all the work for you by default.
I really like that you have such a huge toolbox so you almost have something against any given matchup - This is generally my issue with AoS - Where I play we typically make an "all comers list" instead of tailoring our list based on what we are gonna play against. This creates super frustrating situations at times where you have a list that dont really have a lot of tools against the given army it is gonna face. I havent felt like this yet with this list yet, since there is a tool for pretty much any job.Some general thoughts/questions
Be'lakor
Im really not entirely sure how Im meant to play Be'lakor once he is on the table and done his thing. I feel like he is "pretty much just there", hanging back. It is rare I have gotten Enfeeble off. Bastiladons would easily roast him since he is a Daemon, so it seemed pointless to run him forward - Maybe he could have just soaked some damage so my Horrors would have been more healthy? I decided to just keep him back and had him zone out a large part of my backline. My opponent could have teleported 40 Skinks in his turn 1 into the top side of my zone, but all he could do was shoot Be'lakor and then his Skinks were stranded near me and ready to be blasted, or lose all their buffs for his next turn, meaning they are kinda worthless. Seemed like a decent bait which he didnt take. Maybe his purpose is more against combat armies where he can move up behind a screen and cast Enfeeble on some combat unit?
Changecaster
Im really not sure about this guy. Again, Im really defensive against shooting armies. I feel like he's just sitting back on his Balewind, not in reach of anything. At least he is generating 2-3 Fate Points per turn quite reliable. I played against a Sureheart SCE list where he could sit behind screens and blast, but against any ranged army he's just sitting back? Maybe Im too afraid of losing the guy.
Great-Bray Shaman
I couldnt really decide between trying to Devolve something or just straight up casting Gift of Change to ensure a low wound hero would die. My fear is using Devolve through the Spellportal, only for my opponent to roll double 1s on the move.. The fact he is there really put a lot of fear into my opponent though. It was the first game with this guy over the Magister on a Disc. I think on a "normal" battleplan it would be easier to pull something forward and have my dudes be within 18" of the target - There is just so much space on Battle for the Pass. He might shine later on in the game where you can pull something off an objective, or pull a unit outside of a buff aura like HGB etc. Imagine pulling HGB outside of their 4+ spell ignore aura and then get blasted!
Blue Scribes
I keep forgetting to learn spells on a 4+. I probably wouldnt do it on every single spell, but learning stuff like Wind of Chaos is quite huge, since he can 2+ it through the Spellportal the following turns, if my opponent doesnt decide to dispell it. Thats insane against horde units like 40 Skinks.
Fold Reality
I have actually yet to cast this spell on my Horrors. Might be due to inexperience, but how aggressive are you with casting this? I had 1 unit that was basically 2 blues and 18 brims on an objective. I thought about throwing Fold Reality on them since there are "only" 22 wounds remanining. I just fear rolling a 1 and losing the objective, but rolling anything else, returning at least 1 banner guy and then DD 1 on the battleshock would really bolster the unit immensely. I guess you really need to calculate if you NEED the additional wounds to win the game vs playing it safe. Any indication for when you cast Fold Reality or you just risk it for the biscuit?
Funny, a few people have disagreed with your 1st point and have said that my list is "auto-play" like Changehost Flamer spam, which I find pretty funny. It plays on a knifes edge and 1 little thing going wrong can see you lose outright. But yeah, I've only ever make all-comers lists even when I was playing locally in a meta with nearly no shooting.. simply because I plan to play at large events. It still can really struggle vs shooting as all of your Heroes are the crux, Kairos in particular.. but I haven't played against a lot of heavy shooting yet or if I have it's only been 1-2 units that get shut down with Be'lakor. It does have a lot of tools, but at the end of the day it's super fragile to almost anything.
Be'lakor
He typically gets used as something that can cap lightly guarded objectives or take out a squishy/not very punchy hero. Usually he's straddling one of my flanks, especially vs armies with teleports\fast movers. You're paying 240 points for the ability to shut down a unit first and foremost, and he doesn't even need to be alive for that to happen. Anything after that I consider a bonus, like his 2 spellcasts (just keep in mind he doesn't get the unretreatable bonus or the RR's since he is an ally). It sounds like you made just fine use of him really.. I'd rather people shoot at him than my horrors or other heroes.
Changecaster
Neither am I, hence why in my updated list I've dropped him. Far too often he sits on that BW throwing out spells that on average for me do 1-3 MW's each. If I was rolling 4+ everytime I would find value but.. usually he only pays off with the ability to keep casting spells on a 9+ which means I can get 4 FP's out of him. At the end of the day, he's a 110 point wizard (150 if you count the BW) with good potential, but it's very swingy potential. That 24" works just fine for me since this army is all about controlling the midboard, not reaching into the back of the table outside of Spellportal.
Great-Bray Shaman
While I haven't used it yet, I think the Devolve setup probably works better in HA because you can combine that with the free 6" move you get.. even better if you run some Enlightened/Skyfires. 9/10 times I'm going to be casting Gift or Winds of Chaos through the portal.. but pulling something off an objective or buff range like you said is a great way to use it although you have to be very mindful of your positioning since it moves towards your closest unit/model. This list goes very deep into controlling the midboard so any tools to expedite things being in that range is nice.. combat armies are usually already there since they want to hit you, but shooting based stuff can easily sit back which where this comes in.
Blue Scribes
Honestly I don't think I've ever done it.. mostly out of forgetting to but I don't think in my 15+ games with the list that it's ever caused me to lose. Most of the time it just isn't super helpful, but I do agree with Winds of Chaos it would be... I think I need to add it to my spellcasting rotation notes to have him learn it 😅
Fold Reality
I'm usually only casting it if I have 15-20 or less Horrors left in a unit and I can risk not rolling a 1.. by that I mean that if I think those 15-20 can survive that combat phase and I have a CP to spend on them then I may just do that so I don't risk them going away altogether and freeing up my squishy heroes to be punched. That said, if you create layers of screens then that isn't a worry. For example, I played against an Ogor list in the GT I'm in Sunday night and lost about 12 horrors that were tying up a single Ironguts thanks to rolling a 1.. now I was able to get that objective back since I just killed him with a spell, but I had nothing else threatening that part of the board for that turn so I felt I could risk it. Especially since I've been able to get 10 Blues a turn to replace them with.
Glad you've been running it and enjoying it... once this GT is over I'm going to be practicing with 2 different versions and see what I like. The Changeling and Ogroid are both 2 wizards that I think will be more beneficial than the Magister/Changecaster.. although I would hate to lose that 2nd fast hero, it wouldn't be detrimental. The Changeling with Geminids is going to allow me to get things down to -3 to hit, which can go to -5 to hit and -2 to wound if a unit also gets Treason, Arcane Suggestion and Enfeeble thrown onto it. Basically it's just another unit shutdown at the cost of some potential damage that the Changecaster would have provided. Bolt of Change doesn't do much for me, so swapping him for an Ogroid with a better spell for Kairos to cast and being a reasonable beatstick like Be'lakor seems better to me. -
@Aelford Out of what you have there, I would say #2 is the best, although I do like Untamed Beasts for zoning out the board, so either way you wanna swing it. I don't really see the point in the Bridge for #1 hence why I didn't go with that; everything you have is fast enough to not really need it barring the 3 Enlightened on foot.. and you could just take that out and have 3 more Discs.
I'm probably not the best to speak about it since I'm known to really feel that Tzaangors are in a poor spot and not really a competitive option.. but I always like seeing people try less common stuff and making it work. -
1 hour ago, Kasper said:
I would love to man, but as Im still new to Tzeentch Im still having an awful time figuring out spells etc (I printed small Pokemon-like cards for the lore spells + warscroll spells), so I would prefer to get a better hang of them before wasting your time. 😅 Theres significantly more to keep track of than when I play Seraphon.
Honestly I used to think Horrors were broken AF, but it was likely my inexperience with them. They get much worse in units of 20, but honestly almost any army got a way of dealing 20 damage in 1 turn to prevent you from DD 1 on the banner.
I have no issues with that at all man, doesn't have to be ultra fast and competitive... I don't mind being on the receiving end of Tzeentch just to learn it more and I can always walk you through things/decisions if you want for a sort of tutor game. No worries either way.
Yeah, if you don't have a CP then most of the time they're dead.. and my lists usually don't have a CP so I have to position them extra carefully to ensure they live T1. I want 1 big unit of 20, but having them spread out is generally far more beneficial.-
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58 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
@Gwendar I'll take anything to make arcanites better as well, I ended up building a phantasmagoria of Fate list just to make Tzaangors work. A tzaangor focused subfaction, and a complete rewrite of cult of the transient form would be my wishlist. If you look at all the subfactions we have now, unless they go really off the walls, the only subfaction left to squeeze in is a Tzaangor/BoC one.
I can't think of any of our warscrolls that need rewrites badly, maybe horrors?I agree, Transient Cult needs to be Tzaangor focused as it's really just another Kairic focused one which makes no sense. I can see one of the Broken Realm SC boxes being a Shaman, 10 Tzaangors and 3 Enlightened/Skyfires or something and making them worth using potentially.
I would disagree on Horrors though. In todays meta I really do think they're okay, but I would like to just see them drop in points slightly/get a slightly better save and split 1-1 so I don't need to invest in extra Blues\Brims. That would drive down their profits though so, I'm doubtful of that change.
25 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:I'm tinkering with my BoC Tzeentch version. I have 2 Fatemasters, and 2 units of 9 Bullgors (1 greataxes, 1 shields/axes). I'm also thinking 2 Cygors could prove very good with Destiny Dice for unbinding since they do MW if successful, or just for making their giant rocks hit and do good damage. Probably make one Fatemaster with Paradoxical Shield and Nexus of Fate, that seems like a solid general? Then toss in Blue Scribes and perhaps a Taurus for the Shaman?
Is this even viable these days? I haven't yet tried it out. Probably be vs Mawtribes to start, then vs the Sons of Behemat.
I'm not sure Cygor would be worth it even in Tzeentch. Random damage, low range if they bracket, etc.. and they only do 1 MW if they unbind something.
I don't know that you really need 2 Fatemasters though, but I suppose it does counteract the abundance of 4's to hit. Personally, if I was building Phantasmagoria I would think more about a unit 9 or 2x6 Enlightened or something with some Skyfires and fill out the rest with Gors/Ungors and a few heroes. I love the Bullgors though so it may still be a nice alternative to the 9 Enlightened. Would love to hear how testing goes for you. -
14 minutes ago, obmik1 said:
Awesome to read about your success, and to listen to them talk about your list earlier today. Kairos + belakor in hoat D seems like an awesome control deck.
I also love brand of the spirit daemon on the manticore.
Interested to hear your ideas for host arcanum? I've been playing with the kairos+chost list that is being touted around the net, having allot of fun, another tricky control deck.
Thanks! Yeah it was nice to hear them appreciate it. I hope it doesn't catch on though so I can keep it running it all to myself 😅. I don't even get to utilize the no-retreat aspect of it as much if I'm honest.. those RR's to casts\unbinds are what really makes it. I consider myself lucky when they don't manage to kill the Spawn in combat so it can stick around and eat up their resources. That's what happened in my game vs Lumineth by throwing it between the 20 Sentinels who could only kill it via shooting which prevented them shooting at my heroes for a turn. And yeah, the Manticore is surprisingly tanky and killy (if you use Infusion Arcanum, which I would likely switch to) and people don't expect much from it. If I can afford to be aggressive with it then I will as it can tag the corner of something and sit there while they try to beat on it and it slowly kills them off with them unable to retreat.
I've been meaning to play the same kinds of Arcanum lists that have been doing so well, particular the stuff from Joe Krier but haven't got around to it. Those are also rather casting based and definitely require some piloting skills to master. If you look further up the page I have 2 concept lists I posted; 1 using 5 Exalted Flamers and 1 using Devolve to pull things closer that may have tried to hide out of range. I'm interested in it for sure and I think it's a very strong Coven, just not as point and click like Changehost+Flamers is.. which is a good thing in my book. Still waiting to see if the Broken Realms books give Arcanites a boost in power though.. I would really like to run a combat based Tzeentch list that doesn't need to have StD elements added in.-
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Couple of revisioned lists I'm thinking about for the future of the control list:
v1SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts DuplicitousLeaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Be'Lakor (240)
- AlliesBattleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82Still with 6 Wizards, but loses Daemonrift. Basic principle here is the same but with a bit more control\shutdown via the Changeling giving me up to -4 to hit and -2 to wound in CC (daemon -1, his own -1, Arcane Suggestion -1 hit/wound and Geminids -1 with Be'lakors -1 wound) which pretty much shut down another unit separate from whatever Be'lakor turns off or what Kairos denies a charge roll with.
v2SpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts DuplicitousLeaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Be'Lakor (240)
- AlliesBattleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 240 / 400
Wounds: 80This was suggested by someone else (thanks Dave 😉) and drops a hero-wizard for more Pinks and I get to keep Daemonrift. Same basic concept as the above. Losing Winds of Chaos can hurt but.. more Pinks is probably better overall.
I was fortunate enough to get a shoutout on The Honest Wargamers stats show today which was pretty neat. This week I think I'll try to test the above and put the Hosts Arcanum lists on the backburner for now as I really want to perfect this before I try anything else.-
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34 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Brims arent too bad though, they could act as a backend screen to prevent deepstrikes as you push forward with your Pinks/casters (something I sometimes miss). Against super aggressive melee armies it never hurts to have a couple of layers of protection, since many units can easily chew through 50 wounds, but if the second layer is far enough back so they cant pile in, it doesnt matter if it is only 10 wounds, it will stop their charge. But yeah, the issue is points - Another issue is that with so many heroes not fitting into the batallion, you are not getting a low drop army either way, so what is really the point in bending your army list? The teleport is neat though, but not sure it is worth changing everything up.
I just figured that 10 Skinks deal no damage and they wont really contest your Horrors on objectives. I can understand generally wanting to kill Kroak since his Celestial Deliverance/Stellar Tempest/Comet's Call really thins out Horrors and threatens some of the low wound heroes. I just figured 40 Skinks is such a juicy and easy target for Wind of Chaos, and it will force him to use a CP for Inspiring Presense 100% with all the deaths. Many Seraphon lists dont start with a CP, so if you get turn 1 and manage to throw it at them turn 1, they are really in neck deep. After those are gone there wont really be a whole lot of damage output beside Kroak. Maybe Kroak is a better target overall - But you could also throw Be'lakor at him and shut him down for 1-2 turns.
Again, not trying to backseat - Im just trying to learn. Im building my Tzeentch army as is and have been playing some games on TTS so far.
You are obviously great at the army and has been doing really well with it!
Oh Brims definitely are not bad.. once I have some time this morning I may see what I can put together. Once you starting trying to add Kairos/Be'lakor you're starting to push 2-3 drops which is still going to beat most armies.. but I think points are the biggest thing. You need 660 points in Pinks and then there would be no way to have Kairos and Be'lakor with a LoC since you need to fill out Changehost.. and without either of them I'm not really sure you still have a control based casting list.
So here's what happened in my head: The main reason I wanted to go for Kroak is just so I can get his insane +3 unbind shenanigans out of the way since this list is so reliant on spells for damage. All in all, I think you're right and I made a bad call as what you're saying was the other half of my thought process but I gambled. I was afraid Kroak would just unbind Winds and then they would just sit there.. but the worst that would happen is they go next and I could just Be'lakor them since they were the target anyway. That would've been a better gamble than maybe putting some wounds on Kroak 😉
I couldn't kill Kroak in 1 turn anyway so.. yeah, not sure why I went with that. Even top tournament players can make bad decisions they wouldn't normally make every now and then but it was a win overall and I learned my lesson from it. If you ever want to get a game in just let me know and I can run Skaven or something. -
3 hours ago, Kasper said:
I would never put Kairos so far forward unless I knew beforehand if I was gonna take turn 1 or not.
But if you have fewer drops than your opponent, then it is quite neat! I thought about trying change the control list to Changehost to limit drops, but having to field a normal Chicken really messes up with the points. I still want Kairos, Be'lakor and Manticore..
Good point about Gift of Change. Completely forgot about the FAQ that explains it. Still, I should generally be using his 2+ much more often past turn 1. Even if it is a 1/6 of failing, Im fairly sure it is significantly better odds than rolling 2D6.
Especially in a world where Kroak/Slann is quite dominant.
Yeah, I've tried building lists with it and it just doesn't work unfortunately. Changehost being as restrictive as it is makes it hard to have all the Wizards you want/need unless you fill it with Brims.
3 hours ago, Kasper said:Great batrep! It is always easy to backseat, but isnt ultimately the biggest threat in his list the 40 Skinks? Is there a reason why you didnt Spellportal + fate dice Wind of Chaos on the 40 in turn 2 to significantly reduce the incoming damage the following turns?
Thanks, and yes and no.. he was going to be able to summon 10 Skinks a turn which I didn't want to deal with but I just couldn't kill Kroak fast enough. I didn't bother with the 40 Skinks because I knew I would just shut them down with Be'lakor for 1-2 turns (if he got a double) and Kairos would deny a charge, but I forgot. I made it so that at most he would only be able to shoot at Horrors.
That said, I ran that option in my head when playing but decided against it for various reasons. Like I said.. some things I could've done differently to make the game easier for me but all in all it was a success so I can't complain. Definitely going to look at making alternate lists today when I'm not too busy.
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And here's my own from todays Butchers Buffet GT game. Brain still fried 6 hours later.. that was the roughest game I think I've played and I definitely need more practice to get quicker with my decisions.
As I said in the final section, I'm considering some changes to the list that I may test if I can find the energy to play during a weeknight this week. I still wanna test the other 2 I posted earlier so.. eventually I'll get to everything 😅 -
38 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Devolve is kinda a neat trick. Especially if you can grab something with fly so it moves over a screen or whatever. That combined with the 6” pregame move could certainly catch people offguard!
Question - If Kairos casts Wind of Change with a Manticore nearby, I guess the Blue Scribes can roll a 4+ to learn it off Kairos? I think I need to abuse the 2+ on the Blue Scribes more often. Learning Gift of Change and Wind of Chaos is quite potent for the following turns after placing the Spellportal in turn 1.
That's the idea.. will depend who I think is going to go first though considering the order of operations.
And yes, it can learn it. He can't learn/cast Gift of Change because it requires a bracket table for it's damage. I pretty much only use the 2+ roll unless he was going to use Boon.. but I also just had a game where he failed the 2+ twice in a row which was fun. I'll have a batrep up for that game later. -
5 hours ago, Aelford said:
I’m back to painting my Tzeentch. I’m going for a little different. An MSU approach, with hopefully some MW output from the Tzaangor totems.
Let me know what you think of this list. An improvements I could make.
It's an interesting concept and I've heard of others doing it before but never looked into it myself just because it seems kinda gimmicky (speaking about the totems vs wizards specifically). I just can't like Tzaangors currently.. maybe they'll get a little boost in one of the Broken Realms books? If you try it out I would always be keen to hear about it.
Speaking of trying things out, I've made up 2 lists today that I plan to try out this week:
Devolve + SkyfiresSpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts ArcanumLeaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Be'Lakor (240)
- Allies
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
- AlliesBattleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 340 / 400
Wounds: 94I kind of want to run GoS for this one actually but I'll figure that out after a game or two. Basic idea is get Kairos casting 4 spells and throwing Devolve through the Spellportal to pull something close enough to blast it with those 3 other spells. Skyfires because they're great despite what some of you may say 😉. A bit gimmicky, but I do feel more secure having Skyfires and 6 Screamers for free instead of 6 squishy wizards.
Exalted Flamer SpamSpoilerAllegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts ArcanumLeaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Fatemaster (120)Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)Units
3 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (300)
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)Battalions
Aether-eater Host (140)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Tome of Eyes (40)Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95This is a take on some of the HA lists I've seen out there with more emphasis on the shooting (though you take a hit in screening by losing Pinks). You can use the pre-game movement to shift the Flamers to be potentially be in range of something while Kairos does the same as his other list and blasts out 4 spells with RR's from the Tome which will actually increase his range ever so slightly. Main reason for the Exalted is simply due to their inherent -1 rend... again, kind of want to try it in Conflag so bump them to -2 but it's hard to not just look at getting normal Flamers for less.
I'll try to do a batrep with each if I manage the time to play them. Still in week 2/5 of another weekly tournament so part of me wants to practice with my main list.. but I also want to avoid burnout 😅
Lemme know what you all think.-
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5 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:
Rules clarification: i assume for the warpgrinder, when you set up and declare an accompanying unit, its considered all one drop for the purposes of counting drops? or do you just declare another unit later when its your turn and its now tunneling.
No, not 1 drop since the wording says "when you would setup another model, you can say it's joining this one" so it would be 2 different drops.
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10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
"Fleeing" is explicitly mentioned on certain warscrolls (squig herd and Flagellants at least), and so is "removed from play". In Morathi's case the small one is removed from play but doesn't count as being slain.
The "counts as slain" part is absolutely crucial to the rule since otherwise fleeing models wouldn't count towards victory conditions.Then I can only assume the upcoming 3rd edition may do something.. I don't know if it's really something that has had enough contention to be included in the December FAQ since it's been a thing for awhile as has been stated.
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1 minute ago, Ragest said:
I think the warscroll is missing one simple line of text, or they have decided that we should take the rule literally and go on.
At any case, i think it needs a faq aswell. It’s an important question about one of the most important mechanic of all army.
There's a few other cases where things trigger due to models being slain via battleshock, it hasn't just applied to Horrors. If they intend it to be different, then the wording of battleshock needs to leave out the "counts as slain" thing and have Fleeing be its own thing.
For now, RAW they split when being slain via battleshock.-
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10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Sounds like we need an actual FAQ/Errata on this. If the fleeing models were intended to be handled the same way as being slain it would be:
I've bolded the changes. The original rule again
Does "remove them from play and count them as having been slain" mean the same thing as slain? I think it clear from the way its worded this isn't the intention although this may not be worded clearly enough. The models are "removed from play" before they are counted as slain from my interpretation.Yes, because you're counting them as being slain. Intention doesn't matter in this case since is purely a RAW question. The OOO doesn't matter here in my opinion as the final word is "they are counted as slain" and therefore they would split. I don't disagree it needs an FAQ, so I would send it in since we should be getting the December FAQs in.. well, December 😅
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1 hour ago, Ragest said:
Ok guys, my Aos group has been arguing for 5 hours about if the horrors split failing battleshocks or not.
So, what do you think guys?
They count as slain, therefore they split
1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:Models lost to battleshock aren't slain, so you don't get to split, however you don't need to remove pinks first if they are fleeing due to battleshock, the warscroll only states that you must allocate wounds to pinks first.
Per the rules on battleshock:
They are counted as being slain, but fled, so they do not split.
Per the Horror Warscroll:
You only need to allocate wounds to pinks, not force them to flee first, and you only split when the model is slain (which it doesn't if it is lost to battleshock because it "flees" instead)
Incorrect, they are in fact Slain as battleshock very specifically tells you that they're slain. Its irrelevant that they "fled" because it says they count as being slain.
The horror warscroll is not laid out in a way that says they need to take wounds to split.. it literally just says "when they're slain" they split, regardless of how they're slain. I wasn't 100% on it either.. but having talked with others, this is how it's done.-
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17 minutes ago, gronnelg said:
super squishy, brackets hard, a somewhat slow/unreliable movement.
Does it work?
For all of these reasons, no it doesn't work reliably well in a competitive environment... usually.
They're fantastic all in all though I would like to see them be closer to 200 points.. if they do get into something (horde or elite unit) then they tend to do exceptionally well if they haven't bracketed. It's just getting them their intact that can be problematic. I find they work best against melee threats\armies that have few\little shooting or magic whittle it down. Good thing about the latter is that it can ignore magic altogether.-
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11 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Is it set in stone that modifiers are only +/-to the roll of the dice? I thought changing the dice was considered a modifier.
I don't believe so (not that I can find right now at least) but I've yet to see anyone playing Tzeentch not do this. Personally I look at it as one of those undefined things.. some have even equated it to like how "setups" are not the same as "moves" and therefore let you keep any buffs for "not moving" etc.
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9 hours ago, Kasper said:
Apologize if this has been discussed to death already but I tried searching without really finding a definitive answer here and been looking high and low elsewhere.
In regards to the agenda Mass Conjuration, can you complete this with Mastery of Magic on either Kairos or Lord of Change due to flipping a dice as long as you roll a 5 or 6 ? Or will you have to roll a combinated natural 9+?
Seems difficult to figure out if Mastery of Magic is counted as a modifer and thus making it a modified 9+.
It's not modifier so it works on both of them. You're just changing the dice roll rather than "modifying" it which is a + or -.
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16 minutes ago, Coyote said:
@GwendarBe careful what you wish for.
Points never really go down for useful units. Best I would hope for would be Archwarlock, Bombadier and Engineer able to effect Skavenride units, not just Skrye; that would help Eshin with almost no changes.
I'm not talking about points changes, all of Eshin and Moulder need far more than points changes to be useful. They need a wave of warscroll changes that either comes with a new tome or a new edition of the game altogether. They literally couldn't make either clan any worse than it already is.
Based on math alone, MMMWP and their other various buffs wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make them useable in a competitive environment if nothing else changed. I have enough problems with our Fiends\Acolytes losing 60% of their damage from a spell not going off as is.. I'd rather see some changes there.-
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7 hours ago, spacenoido said:
Yeah, I think I'll build my list with the Verminlord at the moment since I really like the model. If it doesn't work out I'll definitely look into running the monks, though unfortunately I'm not a huge fan of the models. I'm not super worried about playing to the meta since third edition will probably be out by the time I finish my 2000 point list lol.
And that's as good a reason as any to run it. I don't mind the Monks so much... But Night/Gunner runners are worse for the monkey sculpt look.
Can't wait for 3rd.. and eventually our updated tome with some potentially updated Eshin/Moulder.
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You are obviously great at the army and has been doing really well with it!
But if you have fewer drops than your opponent, then it is quite neat! I thought about trying change the control list to Changehost to limit drops, but having to field a normal Chicken really messes up with the points. I still want Kairos, Be'lakor and Manticore..
Especially in a world where Kroak/Slann is quite dominant. 
AoS 2 - Ogor Mawtribe Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Hey everyone, just thought I'd pop in and say I've finally settled Mawtribes as the next army project. Played against this list in Butchers Buffet GT and fell in love with it so decided to give it a go on a 3-rounder this weekend and went 2-1 (probably would've got 3-0 but losing priority twice in a row makes games difficult to come back from😅) so shoutout to Stuart who's been running this:
Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
- Mawtribe: Bloodgullet
Leaders
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Nice Drop of the Red Stuff!
- Artefact: Splatter-cleaver
- Big Name: Fateseeker
Slaughtermaster (140)
- Artefact: Bloodrock Talisman
- Lore of Gutmagic: Ribcracker
- Bloodgullet 2nd Spell: Blood Feast
Battleline
8 x Ironguts (440)
8 x Ironguts (440)
4 x Ironguts (220)
12 x Ogor Gluttons (400)
- Pairs of Clubs or Blades
Battalions
Tyrant's Gutguard (120)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 143
After underestimating them myself.. I quickly found out that Gluttons smacking a Ribcracker target with +1 attack and wound RR's can absolutely throw out absurd damage. Vs KO I think only 4 of them managed to kill ~10 Endrinriggers.. but I watched Stuart's 8-9 on my last game do around 50+ wounds to a unit of Horrors. I think everyone wants to go after the Ironguts in the list, and rightfully so.. but don't underestimate the Gluttons either.
Excitedly putting in my battleforce box order asap and maybe even 3 SC boxes for the BCR list.. glad to be joining in with the Ogres and I'll be sure to do plenty of batreps with them.