Malakree
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Posts posted by Malakree
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10 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:
What's the general consensus on Ironsunz vs Bloodtoofs.
I've been wondering lately because to me having that back pocket ace of guaranteed teleport of a 6 GGs unit wherever I want to seems really powerful (and the +1run and charge is also really nice) but all the lists I see are always Ironsunz focused. Could someone explain why Ironsunz is better?
Mainly it's my go to because all the stuff is just good and the CA is amazing. Bloodtoofs is less generically good and more good for specifics, it doesn't help that some of it's stuff is either bad or flat doesn't work like the effect which requires a realmgate on the board.
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4 minutes ago, SunStorm said:
If you can, I'd be tempted to wait until the book is seen.
The traditional way was always to do duel wielding in units of 5 and then the gore-hackas in units of 10 or more, but with the change to coherency I'm not sure if that still stands?
If anything it might apply even more so as coherency didn't change at 5s and is super restrictive at 10s.
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6 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:
Just about to start building some Brutes. Is it 2-handers that are better? Also, is Boss Choppa the best champion option? Or before all that, should I just wait until the new book in August?
If you've already got 5 with one of the weapon types I'd make the next 5 with them so that you can run it as a block of 10. Realistically though you should wait for the next book to drop.
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22 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:
Is it clear how Smashing and Bashing works with a unit made to Strike Last from something like a spell or beginning of combat phase ability with the new Strikes First/Last chart?
As smashing and bashing is the last applied thing it takes precedence over any other effect which would contradict it.
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54 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:
I saw a post on FB about using brutes in a "underdog battalion", it really emphasize the role of monster hunters of our brutes!
The hunters battalion.
54 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:Really? I tend to use +1 to hit and +1 to save every combat phase. Plus one mighty destroyer per Orruk turn.
1 per hero phase and 1/2 from the start of the round is 3/4 base per round. Adding a 50% chance to get a single CP which might be first or second turn in the round just feels unreliable, hence my use of the term mediocre rather than useless. I specifically downgraded to a fungoid over a 2nd weirdnob for the CP generation/triumph and it was a mistake. I could have made way better use of the extra faction spell.
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Just did a one day tournament yesterday. There were 2 Ironjawz players there, both using ironsunz. The other player finished middle of the ranks while I managed to come in an impressive last place due to my supreme tactical skills which involved charging a mawkrusha into gotrek for some reason.
We had two very different lists, I had double MK with 2wc, weirdnob, fungoid, 3/3pigs 5/5ardboys. He had an MK, some heroes and 30 Brutes.
I had a couple of takeaways based on both my own gameplay and the general things I was hearing from the other players.
Ridiculous rend or Mortal Wounds are required - I managed to get a mawkrusha to +3 to save ignoring the first rend. You needed a rend of 4 to get it off a 2+. This sort of thing seemed to be not uncommon across the tables, I was hearing tales of a Nagash that had a 2+ save vs -2 rend while rerolling 1s to save. The other way to deal with it is just overwhelming quantity which sadly we don't really do.
Brutes are actually not bad - Anyone who is vaguely familiar with me knows I loath Brutes, their overcosted, slow and really situational. Thing is that the situation in which they are good is the situation we are in, monsters are running around everywhere and 5+ wound models went way up in value.
CP generation feels really mediocre - I'll be honest, this one surprised me. It's a combination of a few things, CP's not carrying over means that things like the fungoid, which trigger in your hero phase, are really awkward as if you go 2nd then they don't even carry over to your opponents turn, as a result the reliability has tanked a bunch. Combine that with being unable to use the same CA twice, one CA per unit and the amount that get thrown at you anyway suddenly the 2/3 you do generate are less important.
Amulet of Destiny is Broken - Seriously, it's dumb. Next one day is next week I think and I'm going to try swap out the Ironsunz and 2nd MK to go Ironclad, Amulet of Destiny and Weird Un.
Don't make stupid charges - Pretty obvious one I know, sadly orruk see charge, orruk make charge. The overwatch ability means you get punished even harder and realistically you need to be charging in your hero phase or doing multiple charges in a single turn.
Personally I see there being a couple of different playstyles, double MK leaning towards an alphastrike style, I'll probably try using this next. My other thoughts are Wrath of Gork MSU ardboys in Big Waaagh with the most stable being the more traditional, single MK with large infantry board presence. Will be interesting to see how things pan out as I hopefully have several lined up over the next couple of weeks to try different things!
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1 hour ago, PlayerJ said:
Really, no ones posted this bad boy yet?
I was to busy wondering if I can con someone else to buy him for me off their sub, or if I actually WANT the sub myself
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13 minutes ago, Warfiend said:
I got my first cabbage a while ago and build a gordrakk out of it. But Last year I got a second one that I didn’t finish since I work on too many things at the same time.
but I hyped myself again and been working hard on this one the past few nights, few more days/weeks and it should be done.
My custom (still nameless after many years) clan finally getting a worthy (still nameless) boss, riding his mighty jaguwaagh
The spots are really cool!
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5 hours ago, Backbreaker said:
The mawkrusha was already our best unit. I don't want to go that road but for those who want to win, double cabbage sound like the way to go.
Sorry did you say tripple cabbage, right you are! Just need to finish painting the third and jobs a good 'un.
Need to get it done before july 10th so I can use it at thwg 1 day event!!!
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1 hour ago, Reuben Parker said:
Actually again a win for the warstomper as he grabs “in the combat phase” so you can potentially do more shenanigans with it. Break a unit coherency after attacks or pickup a last model to then allow you to activate later and pile in 3” into another unit.
The issue being that you do your kills then your damage goes through. So if you do 10 damage and break coherency that 10 damage is going on what they lose to coherency.
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3 hours ago, thundering said:
I'm in the process of assembling Mega Gargants. I know obviously there's still a level of uncertainty owing to the new edition drop, but I was hoping to get some opinions on my list prior to me assembling things and finalizing configurations
There is a video somewhere of how to magnetise the megagargants so that you can swap between them easily.
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50 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:
Not at home, so I can't check whether a mega could even fit within 6" of the bridge,though. But it could be a nasty alpha.
If in base to base it will. That base size is a fraction smaller than 6"
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21 minutes ago, Bruteforce said:
So dual wield even with the new unit coherency rule?
The new rules only apply to units with 6+ models.
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36 minutes ago, Bruteforce said:
So if we're taking brutes in a unit of 5 should we take
- 1xgore choppa,
- 1xboss choppa,
- 3x2h?
or
- 1x dual wield and 2x2h?
You can't take split weapons. The whole squad has the same weapon choice.
Oh and it should be dual wield.
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22 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:
Just hoping that if a Megagargant is the General, can it still count as a battleline? If so that's awesome because I got Kragnos hoping I could run him with my Sons, and since Kragnos is dropping to 695, I can fit him in with 2 Gatebreakers and 1 Mancrusher; which would give 3 battleliners.
There are no rules at all which take battlefield roles away from a unit unless it has a conditional battlefield role that is satisfied, ie. something becoming battleline if x general is taken. As none of the battlefield roles are conditional it means they are all active all the time.
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37 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
That formation allows basically no room for coherency issues and requires convenient unit spread from opponent/good charge. There are going to be armies that can pick out specific models that will prevent you from using that formation. SoB and ObR come to mind, but I think there are 1 or 2 other books that allow for picking out specific models too.
Uh in the setup I'm talking about they would have to be able to remove 2 models to cause an issue and it has plenty of give to get back into coherency easily?
My current guess is that the points included are the ones which will be in the new warclans book not for our current units. Until that book comes out brutes are so niche it's unreal.
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2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:
Fair enough but I think you're underestimating how often you'll actually be able to get most of a unit of 'ardboyz into combat. I know you "can" get a unit of 10 in and attacking, but if the enemy unit isn't in a similar formation there's gonna be holes where you can't attack, getting 12-14 into combat is a bit of a pipe dream imo.
On ardboy bases it's not difficult just really fiddly. It's brute base size where it becomes realistically impossible.
If the enemy forms any sort of line I can get 90%+ of ardboys in melee range. It's really not as hard or complicated as people think.
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9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:
I think with the 25 pt swing between ardboyz and brutes you really do have to consider coherency, brutes have access to 2 inch reach, so 10-15 brutes are much easier to manage around the board despite the bigger base sizes. I think while 15 ardboyz statistically are better then 10 brutes I think in practice and taking into account things coherency and reinforcement limits, brutes have a place.
If you do the math Brute units with 2" reach weapons are just bad. They are Ardboys with 1 extra attack. I'll do the run down again.
- 15 Ardboys are 285 points to 10 Brutes at 300,
- Ardboys require 2 reinforcements while Brutes only need 1.
You're essentially paying 15 points for 1 reinforcement slot.
- Brutes have 3 wounds each, 10 of them is 30.
- Ardboys have 2 wounds each so 15 is 30.
- Both have a 4+ save.
- Ardboys get 2 Shields per 5. That's 6 shields at 15 which equates to ~2 extra wounds.
Ardboys have about 62 effective wounds. Brutes have 60 effective wounds.
- Ardboys have bravery 8 due to the banner.
- Brutes have bravery 6.
- Ardboys have a 3" -1 bravery aura around their glyphs.
- Ardboys get +2 to charge.
At 6 wounds Ardboys are on bravery 6 and Brutes are on bravery 5. It takes 8 wounds to go through before Brutes and Ardboys have the same bravery rolls.
- Ardboys get 32 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
- Dual Choppa Brutes get 28 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1
- 2h Brutes get 21 attacks at 2"/3+/3+/-1/1
- All Brutes get 10 attacks at 2"/4+/3+/-1/2
- I ignored the boss choppa/Klaw question because it's so tiny it doesn't matter.
- Brutes get +1 hit against 4+ wounds
On average you should get a boss, 2 gore choppa and 4/5 dual choppa brutes in because of their base size. This compares to a boss, 2 gorechoppa and 7 2h brutes.
For the Brutes that puts ~20 attacks from normal brutes as your reasonable number. Giving this graph
Spoiler
So you're looking at
- ~16 wo/wo
- ~28 wo/w
- ~21 w/wo
- ~36 w/w
Comparatively for Ardboys the smaller base size means you should be getting ~12 including the boss into melee range. (Personally I'd be expecting to get 14/15 into range but that requires some real obnoxious unit formation) That's 26 attacks.
Spoiler
- ~12 wo
- ~24 w
So against opponents with no save (the better situation for brutes) you're looking around 4 extra damage without the +1 to hit and around 10 if you do have it.
Brutes vs Ardboys Conclusion
Brutes have a slightly higher damage output normally which increases to a sizable amount if the target has 4+ wounds. Brutes are also slower, more expensive, have less effective wounds, less objective presence and are more vulnerable to battleshock.
Brutes are better in damage but are significantly worse in every other way.
GG's
- 40 points more expensive
- Over double the speed
- Count for 2 models on objectives
- Significantly more resilient against battleshock, they have to take 10 wounds to even have to take one.
- Expected 4 in combat. (I did a post on the stupid as formation on the board that gives you 6 pretty reliably but again it's obnoxious).
- Impact hits ~2 mortals on the charge
- 17 attacks at 1"/3+/3+/-1/1 and 16 attacks at 1"/4+/4+/-/1
- +1 to hit/wound on the secondary attacks if they charged.
Spoiler
- ~12 wo/wo
- ~24 wo/w
- ~15 w/wo
- ~30 w/w
So gg's are really close in damage to Brutes especially considering that this is only 4 of them.
Overall
As it was a while ago, if you want infantry to stand and hold you take Ardboys. If you want a hammer you take gg's. The only reason to take brutes anymore is if you need the reinforcement slot, which is admittedly something which might come up if you want to go 6/6 ggs and 10/10 brutes.
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18 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:
Think you’re absolutely right that the universals are great for us and had been excited to think of ways to get two Megas with Artefacts given that.
Taker tribe with the take 2 artefacts trait. Take the tribe artefact on the general and the time on tour 2nd garg. 2 wizard SoB!
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42 minutes ago, VoodooChileIRL said:
nothing that says the "Commander" role can't be occupied by someone who is not your general.
Kraggies warscroll specifically states he is your general even if he's not so that wouldn't matter anyway
10 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:Hmmm, well I saw this leaked photo, and I'm thinking of selling off 1 Gatebreaker and 3 Mancrushers, as I don't want to make another 3 Mancrushers to run a SoB army, much less with only 1 Gatebreaker. Pretty lame. I have plenty of Stonehorns anyways for a monster mash. Then I could be fiscally responsible and keep Kragnos in the box until we see if he gets a green blood transfusion!
I mean the Mega's all getting the Battleline roll as well is pretty amazing for that, SoB auto fills it's battleline requirements for free because it's almost impossible to make an army which doesn't have 3 units in it.
EDIT:
4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:It is weird that he is under Warclans. Gotrek also has the note of how he allies into other armies like both him and KRagnos had, however nothing like that is listed under Warclans
The ability to take him in any allegiance is actually on his warscroll so it's not changed in anyway. Only difference would be if he gains the Orruk Warclans keyword or not.
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18 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:
Good catch. Thanks. Have a bad habit of associating wound level with Behemoth status but was never a great system.
Still think taking a battalion and unlocking some enhancements positive and the Troop one in GHB could be an appealing one.
Enhancements are only unlocked with two of the battalions you can't access. You're limited to the one drop battalion only, each Mega can include Mancrushers in their drops, or the GBH battalion which is Mancrushers only.
SoB got buggered hard by the core battalions.
EDIT: Note
Also really worth pointing out just how good the new universal artefacts/spell lore is for Gargants. Arcane tome means you can make any mega a wizard without being taker tribe, Flaming Weapon is +1 damage to one of the wizards weapons, while Levitate lets you have flying gargants. The idea of a unit of 3 flying Mancrushers is pretty funny tbh.
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29 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:
I’ll definitely try the four Mega build but my first impression is that it remains a bit of a trap, especially if it precludes any battalion as unlocking Linebreaker feels like it will be valuable.
You can't use Linebreaker as Mancrushers aren't behemoths.
The only core battalion available is the battle regiment since you only have access to Commanders and Troops.
EDIT: The GBH battalion for Troops only is also an option.
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12 minutes ago, brattenbergus said:
Are they really useless? That Ardboys is Battleline at 5 models are really nice yes, but they cap at 15 models per unit. And you can only bring 2 units with 15 models in each, then you have to spam 5 man units. Wasnt Ardboys strength in numbers? To me it would seen Brutes are still looking good at 5 models.
Ardboys and Brutes are pretty close in terms of usefulness. You can now get 15 Ardboys for 285, compared to 10 Brutes for 300 points. I did a whole comparison before but basically 15 Ardboys are slightly better than 10 Brutes if you have a warchanter buff on them. Brutes only started getting better than Ardboys when Ardboys went up to 100 (from 90) and Brutes came down to 130 (from 140).
With a huge points difference now means that for infantry Ardboys are way more cost efficient than Brutes.
Then on the other end of it you had the hammer units, Brutes vs Goregruntas. GG's are just so much more versatile than Brutes especially now that they count as 2 models for objectives. If I were looking for a more "sane" list it would be more like this.
QuoteAllegiance: Ironjawz
Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (495)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Warchanter (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Battleline
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (285)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (170)
Endless Spells
Soulsnare ShacklesBattalions
Warlord Battalion
Battle Regiment
Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 138This gives you basically everything you want, the stupid new shackles and is only 5 drops.
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12 hours ago, novakai said:
biggest shame is no more 3 man Dankhold squads
but no (few) change is probably good change atm, everything going up across the board probably makes up for the Dankholds being a bit expensive
since there no more battalions and the core battalion are free, it probably balances out in the end
Troggboss didn't go up at all and rockguts were are only 5 points extra. Relatively they did pretty damn well!
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AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Man I'm really eating my own words on the whole Brute thing aren't I, going to try 2 blocks of 15 ardboys next week just to see how I feel about it but those Brutes seem to be doing a ton of work for people.