tom_gore
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Posts posted by tom_gore
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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:
I'm suggesting that's the ideal to which we might try to aspire, yes. Minimal confusion is not really a bad goal, is it? Being considerate to our opponents as much as possible? I'm really not seeing why my general idea of putting the other person over your self is such met with such resistance.
I've not played against or with (yet!) Ironjaws in AoS, but that's not relevant. This is Warcry. Same setting, utterly different game. I don't think veteran AoS experiences have any impact here. Besides, what about new players who don't have that experiential knowledge? Isn't it even more incumbent upon us, as veterans, to ensure that new players encounter as few obstacles as possible? It does no good to get a new person in, game against them, have them go after the wrong models on the table, get beat because they didn't recognize the model for what it was, and then quit because they felt like the game was too confusing or frustrating. We should endeavor to make the game as conflict/confusion-free as possible, shouldn't we?
Again, why is trying to be as nice as possible to our opponent seen as a bad thing?
You also have to consider many people have loads of AoS miniatures lying around. With your "guidelines" they would be unable to field many of them. Heck, if someone had modeled their dual-wielding Ardboys with dual axes, dual maces and dual swords, he would be unable to field any of them!
WYSIWYG is an admirable goal, but you're taking it a level too far. I have a very hard time believing any new player would be confused about the version of Ardboys each of the Shadespire models would be representing. Much less the actual Ardboys miniatures that would be wielding dual maces, for example.
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What are we even arguing here about? @Sleboda are you saying that in order to field an Ardboy as the Choppa and Smasha version you need to have one sword-like weapon and one mace-like weapon in order not to confuse the opponent?
I'm guessing you haven't played against/with Ironjawz in AoS? There is no stat difference at all between the mace-like, the axe-like and the sword-like weapons for Ardboys. The only difference is the two-handed weapons (of which there are also axe-like and mace-like versions), which are also separaten in Warcry.
I think the only model where you could get confused is the boss, since the weapon configuration is quite similar to the Choppa and Smasha Ardboy, especially considering Gurzag from the Shadespire warband. Even then, Gurzag has a very distinctive fur cloak over his shoulders, and the Ardboy kit Boss is usually modeled with the huge axe-like choppa and without a helmet.
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Azyrite Halo is pretty situational and rarely useful in my opinion, especially as the Liberators don't have an option to reroll all failed saves.. I would replace with Chain Lightning, Lightning Blast or another direct damage spell to capitalize on your ranged damage.
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2 hours ago, Vasshpit said:
I'd bet the underworlds destro faction will be Ogor based and maybe a Bonesplitterz warband.
I'd wager a BCR hunter and some kitties.
Also, personally, I'd rather see yhetees become some kind of frost Troggoth just to unify the setting a bit.
The way they handled the BoC warband is brilliant. Make a new warband for Underworlds and at the same offer a new plastic hero for the AoS range in one swoop, to replace the somewhat aged resin model.
I certainly hope they'll repeat that with a Bonesplitterz warband, making a new wardok or wurrgog prophet (or even both) appear in that plastic kit.-
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Well it sure is insane enough with the #2 interpretation, and still better enough than the generic Quad with the #1 interpretation.
Would love GW:s clarification on this one, though.
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Is SCE OP？
in Warcry
4 hours ago, frostfire said:Yeah I agree. But it’s weird that shooting weapons take nearly no penalty in a melee battle game.
What do you mean? Most of them have a minimum range they can shoot into. It's not hard to block them off from shooting at you.
The real problem is the SCE shooters hit like a truck in melee, too. The only unit really losing a lot of power when tied to melee is the Longstrike.
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4 hours ago, Dew said:
So can you make all of the available Warcry models from 1 box of Orruks?
All the leader varieties?
EDIT: Not sure, but at least 2 of them for sure.
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15 hours ago, Euphanism said:
I do find it weird that the Totem guy has range (unlike in AoS) but the Big Stabbas DON'T have range.
You find that weird but not the fact that neither the Ironjawz Gore-Hacka or the Gore-Choppa don't have range either? 😛
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Is SCE OP？
in Warcry
9 minutes ago, Laststand said:There are lots of different opinions and several threads on this forum about it. Broadly speaking I dont think too many people would argue with DOK, FEC, Skaven, Slaneesh, Fyreslayers are the top factions.
We're talking about Warcry here. Skaven, Slaanesh and Fyreslayers don't even have rules for Warcy yet.
From the existing Warcry warbands, I'd rank Gloomspite Gitz very near if not top tier.
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I think the Sempiternals battalions are costed under the assumption the SCE battalions are worth their points to begin with, which most of them are not...
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5 hours ago, Rumblefish said:
I mean, they ultimately play like AoS Ironjawz, which might be disappointing but shouldn't be surprising. Really missing mixed Orruks/Grots in a number of games now.
Except in AoS the Ironjawz are anything but slow. Especially with the latest GHB update adding a teleport spell and making Rampaging Destroyers a command ability instead of a random roll. If anything, Ironjawz can be made to cover ground faster than pretty much any army in AoS, across their whole army. That is not possible in Warcry.
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I would say they are way overcosted for the most part. Should tune up the stats or lower the costs for most units to have some kind of chance against the official warbands.
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14 minutes ago, RaiderX said:
The Brutez kit though, such a fun kit to convert and put together.
This is by far their best quality. Let's all pray to Gorkamorka GW will put the Brutes in their rightful place with the Orruk Warclans battletome. That being the top of the elite infantry food chain.
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Played a couple more games yesterday with Ironjawz. This time against Stormcast.
I still think Ironjawz are crippled by their 3" movement and 1" attack range across the board. Sure, when they get to melee they wreck face, but the problem is getting them there. The group with your boss is fine, being able to rely on Waaagh! to get more speed, but the other groups are essentially screwed if they deploy far from the action and/or the objectives, slogging forward 6" a turn or 8" if spending a Double for Rush.
I also don't think it's good design that one warband basically needs a decent high double or triple on the first turn(s), plus needing to activate their Leader first in every game to get anywhere.
Bottom line is, Ironjawz are quite limited and should I say boring to play. They lack variety and options that every other warband has. I also played one game with my Untamed Beasts and every turn I had a plethora of options what to do next and how to mess with my opponents plans. With the Ironjawz I feel the opponent has all the cards in his hands and I'm just playing by his plan.
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3 hours ago, Floom said:
Ahh, my bad. I meant using the warbosses command ability multiple times, for +N attacks. The megabosses have a similar command ability, but you're dealing with smaller mobs. I think Greenskinz really rewarded positioning and the threat of having 2+x 40 blobs with 5+ attacks each is game changing. With a totem boss and double choppas they're 4+/4+ re-rolling 1s in both too.
Yeah they can put out a decent amount of attacks, but with 32mm base and 1" melee range it's difficult to capitalize on that.
For their price, they sure are killy.
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8 hours ago, Floom said:
It is odd they didn't outright squat Greenskinz entirely, like Gitmob. The warboss is still popular internally as a totem or cross-orruck-faction synergy I guess. Orrucks were great objective holders at 80pts and an impossible to shift anvil with 40 for 280pts. 5+, re-rolling failed saves, maybe stacking with the generic command trait for re-rolling 1s as well. Pretty tanky.
It was always a goal of mine to spam the board with Greenskinz orrucks and stacking waaghs. 120+ and lots of wishful dice rolls. It's a shame they're pretty much dead in the water at this point.What do you mean stacking? You can't stack save rolls because you only ever get one reroll for each roll, period.
This also applies to forced rerolls. So for example if you have a rule that says you can reroll hit rolls of 1 and your enemy has a rule that says you have to reroll hit rolls of 6, you reroll all 1s and 6s just once, regardless of how they turn up after the reroll. (I.e. if you first roll 6 and then are forced to reroll, rolling a 1, you don't get to reroll that anymore). -
11 hours ago, XReN said:
I remember smtg like that, so yes, probably don't want to get in base to base with more than 1 enemy model
You can still make the pile-in move, just need to finish B2B with all the models you were previously. Which is not a problem for a flying model.
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3 hours ago, RaiderX said:
I'm sure you can stand directly underneath the edge of a (almost but still count as) 3" platform and climb up, and it'll count as 3".
Still, it'd probably best stay away from climbing.
You can combo two move actions to climb up, as you are still climbing when you finish the first move and thus won't fall. You will need to finish your activation with the center of your base on a platform though or you will fall.
3" is not enough to climb up on a 3" platform if you're touching the base of the platform at the beginning of the move, since you still need to pay for the horizontal movement too, enough to move you at least half the diameter of your base onto the platform. I see a lot of players playing this wrong and ignoring the horizontal movement when they climb onto a platform.-
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1 hour ago, exliontamer said:
That's not good game design...that's just arbitrary and random. Sometimes goals will be not only challenging but impossible.
Take by comparison Malifaux where you have multiple goals and victory conditions to choose from and in many cases you keep them secret from your opponent until the first time you score so that they can't just move the unit you have to kill as far away from you as possible. And most of them require actions other than standing or killing or moving so you have to make real choices with your economy of actions.
I am not saying Warcry can't be fun, but the inherent randomness to the mission/deployment/twist is just lazy development...not a cleverly built challenge. I won't even get into the standardized terrain because it is literally just a cash grab.
Now my hope is that matched play goes way more towards the Malifaux side of things with standard but varied scenarios and some element of surprise or scheming against your opponent. We will see what the future brings. But for now to claim that randomness = tactical depth...I just fundamentally disagree with you. But that's cool. Different strokes.
Have you seen the rulebook? Matched play has fixed scenarios just like AoS, so the battleplan cards are not used there.
Which is good, since I cannot imagine playing in a tournament with the battleplan cards. That just wouldn't make sense.-
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Netters are insanely good against elite armies. Shutting down a Brute Boss for a round from 11" away with a 45 point model is... Well not priceless but VERY cheap!
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Actually even the normal platforms in the core set are not 3" high...
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Ironjawz Shield Bash Double would like to have a word with you about that Worst Double Ever title...
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9 hours ago, El_Commi said:
*edit: Spreadsheet error, see my next post for clarification*
Malifaux M2E didn't have anything to prevent out-activations, (I can't speak for M3E), and the out activation strategy was integral to some aspects of the game, smaller model count lists have their own advantages and disadvantages, same as in any game.
So I don't really see this as a major concern for Warcry tbh. What matters is how you react to the evolving game.I'm not sure of your math here. I'm getting 9.664470895 and 16.55482363 when I run the numbers. If you look at the graph below, I don't think this is as big an issue as you suggest. Grey line represents probability of 6's on that many die. Bounded to 0 and 8. The probability of at least one 6 is 0.53.
The blue and orange lines represent damage. Each of these damage outputs maps on to a probabilistic outcome (assuming the dice is perfect). We can see that the most likely outcomes here show 2/3 as having higher damage.
I mean, you are right in saying that the damage curve for 1/4 is much steeper than 2/3. However, the probability of hitting those higher damage values is quite slim. (The above assumes 8 attacks which all hit). But, once you factor in the probability the 2/3 has a much higher overall damage curve.
And whilst minimizing the range of output matters for balance in a competitive setting ( I made similar arguments for competitive wow arena back in the day), in a game those... "oh Sh**" moments are what make it fun to play- provided they are not too common:which the probability damage curves above suggest they are not.
In addition to discounting the probabilistic outcomes, your perspective discounts unit specific abilities that may hinder/mitigate crits and damage output which could further smooth out damage. (Although, I concede this does go both ways and it can enhance it)Don't know why the math is different. I just calculated the average damage done by 1 attack (for example for 1/4 damage profile used (0 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4) / 6) and multiplied it by 8. Still, thanks for the curves. It does show those high damage numbers are rare, but of course rare things happen.
I can definitely live with that, because I'm not super competitive. I do know some players will be put off by this since they feel they don't have enough control of the outcome of attack actions.
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1 minute ago, Kaleun said:
Because of the critical hit mechanic the game might favor Horde Warbands instead of more elite Warbands. Warcry seems to be a lot about objectives and controling the right areas of the gaming field at the right time.
However I do not agree with the statement that calculation of "average damage" is useless. The calculation lets you get a feeling which units are more combat effective then others.
Statistics are getting ever more accurate the more games you play. The analytics behind it are true for a infinite number of games.I get what you mean, but in-game you will often need to be able to judge if a model will be able to finish off another model or not. That calculation is almost pure guesswork with the crit mechanics swinging the outcome so much. The maximum damage is so far off the average damage the calculation is just meaningless.
Analytics behind for an infinite number of games don't really apply when you're playing a single game and need to judge the outcome of just handful of dice.
For example, let's say you roll 8 attacks total with a damage profile of 1/4 against lower T. This means that you will do between 0 and 32 points of damage, with the average being only 9,33! Change that to a profile of 2/3 and it becomes a maximum of 24, with an average of 12. Do you see what I mean?
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Warcry - Ironjawz discussion
in Warcry
Posted
I did the math and with the Ardboys there's a place for both the big choppa and the two choppas. The big choppa is on average more damage against lower and higher toughness, and equal damage against equal toughness. Two choppas obviously have a higher damage potential, but on the other hand the big choppa has a higher chance to finish off low health models.
So in short, against equal strength/toughness model with many wounds left, it's better to go with the 2 choppas. Against different toughness and/or low health models it's better to go with the big choppa.
If you're using Onslaught, the big choppa is even more better and the only thing better about the 2 choppas remains the higher potential with crits.