Jamopower

I got my second 1000p game in yesterday. This time I played with Dwarfs against Greenskins. I had 16 warriors, 15 miners, 8 hammerers with rune of battle and thane, a dragon slayer with some runes, bolt thrower, gyrocopter, 8 rangers and 8 thunderers. Pretty formidable amount of units for 1000 points. On the other side were Warboss with 20 boyz, lvl 2 shaman, some skirmishing goblin archers(!), unit of common goblins, 20 goblin infantry, boar chariot and a giant. i have to say that I like how propert feeling armies can be included in 1000p. Sure my units were lacking in ranks, but they didn’t feel anyhow meaningless. The hammerers and rangers chopped the big orc block to pieces after the rangers counter charged to flank, which was the defining moment. I had some luck with my bolt thrower causing 4 wounds on the giant and two on chariot, that really turned the game for me. The giant smashed through my miners in a single turn and the chariot was also very scary. Some luck also there thst the chariot lost the other two wounds by the foot of gork under which it overrun after failing restrain Magic didn’t much this time either, the foot of gork was the only spell the shaman managed to cast before I ran over him with the gurocopter. dwarfs feel pretty solid, at least in this kind of casual environment. They also feel more mobile than ever before with the marching columns and skirmishers. The miners managed to march midway on the table first turn, a speed record for sure!

Good list! The marauder giant made me hope we could get marauder era dwarfs. The marauder longbeards or crossbowmen would be instant buy for me (and I believe many others). Archaon is probably pretty sure bet for Chaos.

I would say the latter with smaller units make more sense (depends of course a bit what you're expecting to face). 30 witch elves will make a very juicy target to something like a Lord on a dragon (or first charging chariots) that has high enough initiative in charge to kill enough that you don't get to strike back enough to get through the armor and continue it on the next rounds. Against smaller units, it will have to work more to earn its points, as it will not get easily through a unit with a champion and the multiple rounds of munching through the units give less reward than the one big and juicy target.

Dwarfs are almost all heavy infantry, don't remember about elven spearmen, but at least the elites were heavy as well. Edit: Checked, I was wrong, the elves are regular infantry, too bad...

With six wide you are also "always" getting full attacks. I believe 4 wide is very viable option as well for units like elven spearmen (edit: had only checked phoenix guard and the others were regular) or dwarfs, where few additional s3 attacks won't make much difference to the static resolution of keeping the max ranks as long as possible. And I also believe that having two units of 16 is often much better than having one unit of 30 with those units.

I got to play the first game. It was awesome. We played 1000 points, I had wood elves against Dwarfs. I had two units of archers, small units of dryads and wardancers, 15 eternal guards (without shields as I noticed during the game that they need to be bought separately ), unit of glade riders, riding noble and a lvl2 wizard. Dwarfs had 15 longbeards, 8 rangers with shields, 15 or so slayers, 2 individual gyrocopters, king with bearers and a battle standard. I lost, quite badly Dwarfs are the army I played the most 6th edition along with Lizards, so it was nice to see them in action as well. Some initial thoughts: It plays very much like 6th, there are some notable differences, but it felt like playing 6th edition Fall back in good order changes the dynamics dramatically, my eternal guard lost combats against the longbeards by 6 and 7 and still held for next rounds due to this. For the dwarfs with their ld9 it is even better (or would have been, had I won some combats...). This will impact cavalry and other "shcok charge" units as they can be counter charged next turn. I find this an excellent addition. It's also a stealth outnumber bonus as double unit strength counters this. There was also one quirk that I hadn't realized earlier. If you flank an unit and it falls back in good order, you (likely) lose the flank charge for the next round as the withdrawing unit moves first. 4+ save is a (very) good save, I couldn't budge the rangers even by charging them simultaneously to flank with dryads and front with wardancers (S3 against T4 followed by 4+ save is tough). On the other hand, in general the lighter armour for expensive cavalry will also have an impact as even archers will be dangerous for them. Close order heavy infantry was very difficult to handle for the elves, you can't break the ranks and are always one behind in combat res from the start Skirmishers for dwarfs is a great addition Elven spearmen are still elven spearmen 90 degree free pivot is a lot worse than free reform for the fast cavalry Spells were not easy to cast, ranges were short and having the mage in an unit limited the targets, but I don't think the game gave a good indication on how they actually work. lvl4 mage looks to be annoying for dwarfs. Archers were good, volley fire is a great addition (skirmishing crossbows were also good) Initiative didn't matter that much, elves got to strike charging dwarfs simultaneously, but mostly it is still charger who strikes first (besides special rules such as great weapons and strike first) Banners are worth taking more as they are cheaper and give less points (and due to fall back in good order, you don't always lose them). This is also a great thing.

The gazillion speed bumps that the no restrictions allow have a much bigger impact than in AoS as you can't go around them. It's why things like great eagles are restricted already in the core rules. Also armies full of chariots and monsters are quite horrible, even if they wouldn't be the best possible lists. I played in 6th ed tournament against High elven army that had a dragon, 4 great eagles, 8 chariots, 3x5 knights and 2 heroes on eagles. It was one of the most horrible ones (though it was a draw in the end).

1500 is great, the table is smaller and the units larger and cheaper, so it makes a lot of sense. Also the army composition doesn't anymore open up completely new options in 2000 points so it's no longer a magical threshold.

I have a feeling that concerning dragons, they are so good no matter what save and ward they have that in a competitive environment you have to have some strategy to deal with them and in a casual group playing always with a dragon will get you a reputation

In the numberhammering it’s easy to forget how difficult is it to get your good unit where it needs to be in classic Warhammer. That’s where the lizards (and wood elves, Tzeentch daemons, Vampire counts, Chaos, etc) have always been good at. It’s a game of movement, not game of calculating how many attacks you will dish out.

I have a feeling that you Kitsumy and Doko haven’t played much of 6th edition? Lizards were good at everything and poisoned blowpipes on cheap skirmishers were always one of the strongest things. I don’t see why this wouldn’t still be the case, especially with the in overall worse saves. Archers also look to me pretty good in this game, and the repeater x-bow dark elves (as always).

You can buy you dragon lord full plate, shield and sea dragon cloak and he will have the 2+ save when it matters the most: during shooting phase.

I played a lot of 6th ed with Lizardmen and they were very broken army back then. Especially cold blooded was ridiculously good. I however still have strong faith that screen of skinks backed up with heavy hitting dinosaurs (that have more variety than before) is still a very good combination. I also don’t believe iniative will really matter that much. Getting rid of chariots and dragons (perhaps with poisoned blowpipes) will matter much nore.

On theiryhammer side (and by reading peoples woes) it looks initially like chaos, lizards and vampires have been toned down a bit from what they were in 6th, while high and dark elves, dwarfs and beastmen are bit better, which in overall sounds pretty promising as it would go pretty well according to their ”tiers” in the 6th ed. Wood elves look to be pretty same as they were, other armies I haven’t looked in too much detail as I don’t have them.

Almost everything in the game has changed a bit, so maybe it is a good idea to actually see how it goes on the battlefield. For sure there will be bad choices and good choices, it's Warhammer after all, but hard to say how things work without playing for this complicated game.

You should be comparing the troops to the 6th edition book, not to the latest (in various degree broken) versions. The game is clearly a new edition of the 6th edition game, which has some additions from 7th and 8th (and plenty from Warhammer Historicals).

I made my first list yesterday and feel that 1500 points would already be big enough for me

If you read the second sentence in the combat order chapter, after the one you have underlined, it should be quite clear Now again it of course leaves room for argument if single model actually has ranks or files.

But currently there is nothing from stopping them from getting the +1CR. They are units because it says that all single models should be classed as units and they are in combat order because units of one have as many ranks as they have files (i.e. 1 of both). The chariots and monsters even have the lumbering rule that specifically says that they follow all the rules for close order (of which one is having the +1 CR from combat order). I don't think (or more so I hope) that it is intentional, but that's how it is now until there is an errata for that.

I'd say that the flayed hauberk (and in general the option for taking armor, and possibility to not be a wizard, for your vampire) is the "blood dragon bloodline". One thing that popped out, now that I have had time to read the rules properly, is the +1 CR from combat order. As it is now written, it looks like chariots and monsters get it as well (they have a special rule that specifically classes them to have close order). For single models (like last members of units) it's bit more ambiguous as there is mention about units of two or more, but also bread statement that all single models are units (and single models don't have their own rules). Having multiple chariots that disrupt ranks and each give stackable +1 to combat resolution sounds a bit broken. Now matter how difficult the maneuvering is for them now.

In 6th only Blood dragons could do that, which is clearly the version everything is based on.

Dark elves are also mentioned on some of the first pages of the book...

Speaking of model numbers, I really like the potential for smaller point sizes. The minimum sizes are small and units of 12 can already get full rank bonuses. Also you get full options in 1500 points and the percentages make the list building much more flexible. I have a feeling that I will be playing more ~1500 than 2000 point games as our club night is on Thursday evenings and there is thus a time constraint present.

As the legacy armies are not "official" there likely isn't going to be any mentions on them in the core rules, but of course that is easily house ruled or put into a tournament package to allow it. I for sure will suggest my friends to test an unit of daemons with my beastmen.

These are all more of general "issues" than lizardmen specific. Armour saves are worse universally, 2+ armour save is very rare. On the other hand, the armour penetration side has changed as well, those 4+ saves might actually mean something more often than they used. Similarly with the spears and halberds, I'm sure chaos warriors would also like to have the elven halberds or to use shields with them. Halberds have for some reason always been bit of bad choice. At least spears now have some use as they allow the same save as hand weapons. Traditionally the second attack from saurus have been bite attack, so in many editions it was not possible to be done from the second rank, so it's bit of homage to that. And essentially, the models come with thrusting spears, that's the normal spear in ToW.