Turragor
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Posts posted by Turragor
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2 hours ago, PJetski said:
Stormcast changes are underwhelming. I might try running the Templar + 6 Desolator block, it would be fun to hit MONSTERs on a 2+ with Astral Templars. I'm also going to try swapping out the 10 Evocators for 6 Dracolines in my Anvilstrike list - the extra mobility and natively rerolling charges seems to be worth losing 8 dice on the lightning blast.
Big nerfs to Skaven and Slaanesh make us indirectly better, but I still hope for a new battletome.
I'm interested in the options my starcast list has now the two dearest units got a price cut but I am thinking of the 6 desolator and templar lists too. They did just get cheaper as well.
I'm probably the only sc player satisfied with the changes due to the kinds of lists I take but I'd have taken some super beefed up liberator scroll changes over the templar and LCoSD cuts.
I guess with how ubiquitous libs are they wouldnt want to make big changes there without new battletome levels of play testing.
One thing that is a concern is how the buffs to the dragons (price reduction) may prove cold comfort if tzeentchs new tome comes out bananas strong.
They were always a counter for us.
Well I've bought and am painting an obr army which together with my nurgle army should mean I will always have options at tourneys if the stardrakes and prime bore me (but they never do lol) .
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15 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:
Ah yea of course. Saves and as a result healing, is applied when the save happens after a wound roll, while no actual damage is allocated to the model until the final step. Hmm yea that makes it far less useful though, and far more risky to run into a unit of say 8 ironguts for example, as you can't cushion the damage taken with healing during that combat phase if the drake is already at max HP, it does help a bit still though to more easily choose to fight second and prioritize concussors for example.
So it is pretty much a toss up between ignax and the pelt I guess, offense vs defense. I can see the use of the pelt making the drake the battleline clearer, as both the tail swipe and bite are just about useless against larger models. My drake is completely inept when facing my friends Beastclaw riders, as even mournfang are at 6 wounds, so can't bite anything at all (had hoped they would errata this to do something against larger models).
I must say that in my 50 or more tournament games with a LCoSD it's died only a handful of times.
You need to meet the likes of a celestant prime (off board till R3) or gotrek before it's any melee to worry about.
Terrorgheists and hearth guard berserkers get you with their mws more than melee profiles
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2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:
castellant buffs and healed 3 wounds from that. Is the healing applied after or before the damage?
It's wounds taken not being applied so a drake is weak to anything that puts in 16 wounds total when all is said and done (regardless of 5s or 6s to save). Not much can do that though.
Like the more bodies angle for your list but my preference is to reduce the need for them with more mws (which has its own risks).
Finding your own balance is key. I've played this variation of stormcast so much now that I've been losing not because of lack bodies at all.
However the extra bodies are a cushion against the misplays that cost me games
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10 hours ago, XReN said:
Following this now
That is a cool list, really exited about literaly bringing the wrath of heavens upon the enemy!
Have you thought about taking 2 Lords Celestant instead of any templars and bringing Spellmirror from Ulgu with them for 5+ ignore spells aura?
Originally 2 x LCoSDs was more pts than I thought would work but now it's not actually ridiculous. The main issue is you tend to want the Castellant with the LCoSD. The saving from the LCoSDs will buy you an extra castellant now. hmm I wonder.
You'd still want to do a lot of long range chip mws so maybe that's going too defensive... but you're getting 2x Rain of stars and the shields give you reflect mws (which are also awesome). Perhaps a variant "hedgehog" version of starcast?
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- Celestine Hammer
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- Celestine Hammer
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
Total: 1880 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 84
120 pts over for (probably) some more bodies. 10 x Shadow Warriors? That's not bad.You could also take a comet and aren't losing out that many mws (the prime's comet is nice though). -
15 minutes ago, Zanzou said:
Oh my bad there. I am an opponent of Slaanesh not a Slaanesh player...
Same! I think I understand their rules more now after this round of faqs
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13 hours ago, crkhobbit said:
What about the Temple battalion now? Lots of points, but lots of MW, too, and low drops.
I think it's worth testing out, I'll probably have it as 3rd or 4th test list. I prefer at least 1 LCoSD as their durability is much better.
The temple costs 1400 which (with 300 lib tax) gives you 300 points to play with!
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9 hours ago, Zanzou said:
Why wouldn't it? Even if you stack leaders as normal, doesn't that significantly hamper your early objective control? DP on the things that mattered looked like it went up a lot. Also locus from 3+ to 5+ is game-changing
Locus is 5+ instead 4+ and greater daemons still get 2 added (so 3+).
Or am I missing something
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I think the best option is 10 skinks and an exorcist to incantor upgrade
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What I can also do is add the Heraldor into the original list with the exorcist. That feels pretty potent.
Comet
Toot toot
Rain of stars x2
Prime comet
Maybe more mws than needed for support hero castles
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I believe the trait got a little nerf?
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/e27ddc97.pdf
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4 hours ago, Maturin said:
Where did you confirm it's official ? I haven't suscribed to Azyr, there are no modifications in the warscroll builder and last but not least SCE faqs aren't up yet.
Just the points in azyr.
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Confirmed! Lots of starcast options open now
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On 12/13/2019 at 4:15 PM, Sception said:
As it is, with the lance you're actually over by 20 points,
I hear a rumour* that Arkhan is back to 340 so this would be "fine":
Allegiance: Death
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
40 x Mortek Guard (440)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
Kavalos Lance (120)
Total: 2020 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117
I'm happy to test that out I think
* We'll see when the great FAQ flawed rollout is complete
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If the rumoured points changes are true, this is a viable list now:
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (560) -60
- Celestine Hammer
Drakesworn Templar (460) -40
- Tempest Axe
Drakesworn Templar (460) -40
- Tempest Axe
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
Everblaze Comet (100)
Total: 2140 / 2000 (-140)
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
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5 minutes ago, Nizrah said:
Stardrakes still have bad warscroll not worth even lowered cost.
nonsense!
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1 minute ago, michu said:
We have a clarification on "fight last", "fight first" abilities (german faq) - if both abilities are used on one unit only the second one applies. So if I give my unit an ability to fight first and you will give it an ability to fight last it will fight last.
It's in en core rules faq too
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It's a bit early to say but bks are very much improved with this small change.
Means my demons are still meh.
Guess if I want to continue with nurgle I get me many more bks. Maybe blightlords?
Speed is all that's needed.
Armies with good saves still a problem so who knows how this will pan out.
Definitely an increase in nurgles attendance and an improvement in performance on the cards
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For all to see:
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4 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:
At the same time you will find a lot of KO complaints isn’t just how bad the army it it’s the weird focus on troop spam
This is also 100% valid when buying an army. Stats show tournament lists. Some fun lists get taken there but they may draw down the average win rates only.
Again though, when tiering should we discount the fun factor?
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31 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
Like anything to do with stats to make them relevant you need to do some analysis or it's just a picture of what has happened.
For example at less than 1% of the meta, OB's stats are absurd. So to me the first question if I'm looking at competitive stats is who has the best OB match up in their current meta-state and who has a similarly untenable match up at the moment. The same can be said with Big Waagh.
Regardless of the power some factions can throw around and historical match win percentage that number is going to be a whole lot different in a post-OB world if OB reaches say 3%. Something that is interesting to me is that OB seem to have at least 30% top tens on 3 wins, which would say to me that OB are tabling people in some match ups. Where as say HoS the pantomime villian has less than 6%. Which to me confirms what I've always thought HoS smash or have a very close game on the competitive circuit. Personally I'd like to see more complete stat documents, namely including match up and scores. Because margin of victory is a huge factor we almost never consider.
If people are making purchase choices for the future the stats need analysis, not just description.
This is a very good point. This topic is about tiering and stats are King there (but analysis of those stats are important).
However if you're buying based on stats and tiers you might end up disappointed.
Not all your games will be tournament games against tournament lists.
A faction with a 50% win rate where the losses are all close fought might be much better than a faction with a 55% win rate where the 45% are all being tabled.
Is that separate from tiering though?
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Most of this thread doesn't give any valuable information that could be used to build an AoS tier list.
There is however plenty of anecdotal listing going on, based on:
- What people feel the relative strengths of factions are
- Their biases
- What they've read (a majority of what is available to read is anecdotal)
- Their own games played
It's like a bunch of football fans talking ****** in a pub while drunk. They may be right on a few things but it's no way to build something that, say, the bookies will use to establish odds for teams and player performance.
Has the most accurate data available (it's not something that's "complete" but there's nothing else that compares).
Here's the latest (and this is match win % sorted, not top 10s, not 5 wins > 4 Wins):
Now that's not the whole story, but it's data. Impartial. It means more than opinion (when trying to work out tier listings).
Seems like ppl often get the top tier right but when it comes to everything else, I'm guessing the faction they collect (and lose 50% of matches with against their gaming group) is shoved to the bottom. They are fishing for faction buffs. Everyone wants faction buffs.
Case in point: Kharadron, with a 48.3% win rate they are 16 of 34 in that listing (albeit, some of the factions at the bottom shouldn't really be counted imo), 4th best Order faction. Better than CoS (which includes Tempest Eye). That's based on match win %, the other breakdowns on the honest wargamer site give a more complete picture.
I personally value match win % over top 10 finishes and 5 wins > 4 wins (by those two metrics, CoS beats Kharadron - taking Kharadron as an example again) but that's my own bias. I like that stat.
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Some extra stormcast were added during the year...
but 2020's project is going to be OBR. Here is my latest test model:
I want to do 'em quick and I'm going dark with a very bright desert like base. It's quite different from everything I've done so far!
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2 hours ago, Sception said:
Whoops, I read your collection wrong. You said you had two boxes of mortek guard, and in my head that turned into 20 instead of 40.
As it is, with the lance you're actually over by 20 points, with nothing easy to drop to get back under. You could drop the lance battalion itself to get to, yes, 1900. I still definitely recommend getting the endless spells, as endless spells are about the only option OBR has to fill points gaps of 100 or less. Then you can either go:
Arkhan
Liege
Mason
2x5 riders
40 guard
2x crawler
nexus
all three endless spellsOr alternatively:
Arkhan
Liege
Mason
2x5 riders
30 guard
2x crawler
kavalos lance battalion
nexus
shriekerOr even:
Arkhan
Liege
Mason
2x5 riders
2x20 guard
nexus
soulstealer carrionAll are, again, maybe not optimal lists, but at least viable enough to get a feel for whether or not you want to take the faction further. Probably my favorite of the three is the last one that runs the guard as 2x20, letting you cover more of the board/occupy multiple objectives/etc. Granted, that list makes the decision to go with spears rather than swords on the morteks a bit more suboptimal than it already was, but so it goes.
If you do decide to expand the collection further, my suggestions stay pretty similar: get a boneshaper, they're a staple unit, and get more morteks. Beyond that, harvesters and stalkers are decent in and of themselves, and immortis are good with arkhan specifically, who otherwise has issues with getting shot off the table turn one before you have a chance to get protection of nagash up, but those are all pretty pricey units and I don't think you'll really be able to get any of them to work in a list that also runs Arkhan AND deathriders AND 2 crawlers, so at that point you'd be branching into variant builds instead of improving the army you already have.
Thank you once more! I'll move forward with the building and painting confident that when it's done I've something reasonably solid to test out. I actually just got 3 stalkers ( on sprue) cheap but can't think of where they'd fit in. It gives me the base of the option of taking 6 instead of crawlers in future for example.
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1 hour ago, NoMaDhOoK said:
Yeah the stances are really wack. This is stance comparison right now (for a unit of 3 models, all spirit swords)
Maybe if the +1 damage was made baseline, and then the reroll all changed to reroll 1s to hit/wound, it would be better internal balance
This does make them slightly more powerful fighting against 6+ saves. They could have even dropped the to_wound to 4+, and the falchions up to 3+ to hit (to actually make them worthwhile)
Maybe faqs, errata and rules in general will get tighter if gw uses tools like yours (and others)
I mean they MAY already have something like that going on but I think it's probably taking modifiers and base stat lines from different buckets and assigning points after a series of test games against other factions (and if any are already imbalanced, the teeter-totter effect continues)
/edit
I don't mean to imply the rules guys don't work hard more that I'm more convinced they create rules based on a kind of organic expertise they've built over years of products and experience rather than based on tools and maths etc
Starcast - The Thread
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted
I want to test 2 Starcast lists as soon as xmas family commitments are out of the way:
1. My last touney list with incantor upgrade & skinks
Celestant-Prime (340)
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- Celestine Hammer
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Incantor (140)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
10 x Skinks (70)
- Meteoric Javelins & Star Bucklers
- Allies
Everblaze Comet (100)
Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 70 / 400
Wounds: 91
2. Maximising the mw burst
Celestant-Prime (340)
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
Drakesworn Templar (420)
- Tempest Axe
Knight-Incantor (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
Everblaze Comet (100)
Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 60 / 400
Wounds: 91