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    Cities tier list!

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    10 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

    Doesn't have to be - GWF can do 4 drop reliably, my TE list is 6 and could go to 5 pretty readily as well. A lot of Cities lists are high drop but it certainly isn't a requirement for the army. 
     

    CoS dont have a big Shark, Witchelf, Stormfiend, vulk, ark type unit. So generally they get lots of decent msus. of course you can limit the drop, but it would definitely be a more unorthodox min-max all or nothing build.

    10 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

    Access to empowered Soul Scream Bridge (which is very easy to reliably cast in CoS, likely out of turn one unbind range) negates this concern. It does mean you're spending about 250 points in most lists towards making sure SSB is viable and available but that's a cost worth spending given the ability to punish your opponent for making you go first. And its even better now that SSB entirely survived the Dec. FAQs intact. Also TE negate this weakness entirely by giving you access to KO with m7 in turn one. 

    Post nerf there is simply no way HH is the most viable city in CoS. The bonus to casting becomes much more unreliable post Dec. FAQ. 

    Youre betting on 500+pts to get an endless spell off as your main trump card.Im not saying it wont work. Im just saying its going to fail more than it has to, especially since you dont rate hallowheart who have the best chance in the game to get it off. The other cities struggle to get modifiers.  Your also going low drop, Its sounds like an all or nothing solution.  I think CoS is one of the most dynamic and flexible armies in the game with T1 shooting, T1 magic and decent melee.

    Thats why i rate hallowheart, they can get the move spells off easier than any army in the game. Then they also have the best unbreakable solution in the CoS book, then if you want to go defensive, they get an army wide 5+ ward against magic which is priceless against skaven/tzeentch etc. The +1 spell to cast is essentially double value for all your mages as well. Im not saying TE, GWF, LC, HAM are bad. its just Hallowheart is really great. The CA did get nerfed, but its still usable. get an 11+w caster (lum,huric,mounted) to cast it, then heal it back immediately. If you roll basically a 4+, you are freecasting double spells like cyclone and heal and not even Nagash could stop you.

    • Like 1

    Cities tier list!

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    I honestly think Cities is a high drop army. So you will most likely go last, which poses a massive issue for our shooty lists which usually max out at 24" crossbows. This is really bad for Sisters, Irondrakes, etc which need extra help to make use of turn 1.

    Also greywater getting no love for the +3" range. That is insane for a lot of units that require us to stand still. 3" lets our big shooty units shoot from deployment and really buffs the gyrocopter into T1 levels.

    My rating

    T1 Hallowheart Total power x2 spell casts. unbreakable army item. Magic ward. 

    T4. Tempest Eye, Living City, Greywater. Help with the high drop army. All 3 have options to do something first turn.

    T5 Hammerhaal. Unbreakable and attack twice as well as very synergistic cheap and fast and hard hitting melee units. Would be higher if not for poor drop rate and requirements for the abilities. Very competitive if you generalship around those 2 requirements.

    T15. Phoenician. Dying as preqrequisite

    T27. Anvil.  Fluffy.

     

    Anyone been using Black Ark Corsairs?

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    I personally rate them as one of our best units. 

    280pts = 20 Black Guard. 41x0.67x.67 = 17.9w on the charge. get attacked back by whats left

    280pts = 40 Corsairs. 80x0.5x0.5 = 20w on the charge(ie enemy within charge range). dont get attacked back  (extra ~5w if you decide to charge)

    thats up against one of our best melee units in the black guard.  Yes they lose their attacks in enemies turn, but if the enemy is attacking you in their turn its probably a lost cause anyway. I usually dont see BG/Pheonix guard surviving if they are already in combat and the enemy has a turn (they will get swamped)

    They also synergize really well with the cities.

    Hallowheart, Hammerhal , anvil=  unbreakable 40 bodies

    Tempest = 12" range. possible kiting ability.

    This unit really excels in the AoS shooting rules vs warhammer (shooting in combat, no multi shot/moving penalties, unbreakable options). They can sit on points and attack from farther away, can be inspired/unbreakable which means they will survive a turn against basically every unit in the game as chaff.  

     

     

    • Like 1

    The CoS Proxy thread

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted · Edited by soots

    With a lot of units canned from the old City lists,  it seems like we need opinions on what is personally accepted as proxies. Simple yes or no is good(accepted). Tourny perspective would be good too. perfectly fine to give an opinion of no to everything.

     

     Phoenix guard

    1. Swordmasters. (0/3 Votes)

    2. White Lions (2/3 Votes) (2 maybes)

     

    Shadow Warriors

    1. Glade guard (3/3 Votes)

    2. High Elf Archers  (1/3 Votes)

    3. Waywatchers  (2/2 Votes)

    3. Empire Huntsmen (3/3 Votes)

     

    Longbeards

    1. Dwarf warriors  (3/3 Votes)

    2. Dwarf Miners  (3/3 Votes)

     

    Hammerers

    1. Dwarf Warrior with 2 hander.  (2/2 Votes)

     

    Crossbowmen

    1. Dwarf Quarrelers  (3/3 Votes)

    2. Empire/Brettonian Archers  (1.5/3 Votes)

    3. High elf Archers (1/1 Votes)

     

    Handgunners

    1. Dwarf Thunderers  (2.5/3 Votes)

     

    Dreadspears

    1. Louthern Seaguard (2.5/3 Votes)

    2. HE spearm elves  (2.5/3 Votes)

     

    Wildwood rangers

    1. White Lions  (3/3 Votes)

    2. Wardancers  (3/3 Votes)

     

    Corsairs

    1. Freecompany  (2/3 Votes)

     

    Luminark/hurricanum

    1. War Altar  (3/3 Votes)

    2. Anvil  (3/3 Votes)

     

    DreadLord on Black Dragon

    1. Dragonlord high elf  (2/2 Votes)

     

    Sorcereress on Black Dragon

    1. Arch mage HE Dragon  (2/2 Votes)

     

    Drakespawn Knights

    1. Dragon Princes (1/1 Votes)

     

    BattleMage

    1. Loremaster (1/1 Votes)

    2. Archmage (1/1 Votes)

     

    Nomad Prince

    1. HE nobles (1/1 Votes)

     

    FreeGuild General

    1. HE nobles (1/1 Votes)

     

    Sisters of Watch

    1. Glade Guard (1/1 Votes)

     

    Please add for more acceptable or arguable/recommended options and ill update.

     

    Edit: edited 3/12/2019

    AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    1 hour ago, tripchimeras said:

    From what I can tell, a Sequitors unit is never tougher...  They are identical toughness against no rend, everything else a phoenix guard unit has the better save.  And phoenix guard are getting double the models for 30 points more and on smaller base sizes (I think? I just assume all stormcast are 32mm).  You may be talking about 2 wounds when you are talking about their toughness, but less models with the same # of wounds is a weakness most of the time, especially when talking infantry, and would only make them tougher if their wounds equaled more then the PG at their relative prices, when instead their wound counts are identical, particularly since PG are going to be ignoring Battle shock most of the time...  Their damage output is worse as well, all for only a 30pt discount...  I just don't see the comparison here.  PG feel like the better play most of the time, army composition obviously matters here so I will concede there may be occasions those saved points are meaningful, but I am not sure the losses you take switching are worth it most of the time...

    I could be missing something or mathing bad though, totally possible.

    EDIT Yep I'm forgetting Castellant…  

    Higher wounds. I would argue are better for battleshock since you only get -1 for every 2 wounds (though you lose 2 wounds per fail, but at those levels you are either IP or removing your unit anyways). Less susceptible to warpifre throwers and other "1 per model in range" abilities.  also smaller footprint has pros and cons. smaller = more in b2b to get all attacks. harder to get enemy models in range to attack.

    Sequitors get reroll save as a built in ability. no need for castellant.  They are 25% more tougher against rend 0, and slightly tougher than phoenix guard at -1 rend.  (per 100 pts) Phoenix guard become tougher at rend -2 and higher -though we are looking at the big bad unit killers at that point so its moot. All this while having the ability to switch to reroll attacks to have the output of a greatsword unit (~55% more damage than phoenix guard), even in defensive mode, they are outputting about 15-20% more damage than phoenix guard (per 100pts).

    Phoenix guard however have better move, dont need to take up an sc slot.

    Tempest Eye Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    3 hours ago, stratigo said:

    There’s a reason people are going so all in on the soulscream bridge

    So now youre paying 170pts for wizard and bridge and for a chance to get off a game changer endless spell which the opponent will fight.

    I really dont like relying on getting off a massive endless spell to do things. 

    AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    On 10/23/2019 at 5:03 AM, tripchimeras said:

    Thanks for putting in the leg work.  Super good stuff!  I think I would disagree with some of the conclusions you came to in your original post though.  Mainly on  Executioners I feel like they are worse then blackguard for only 10 pts less and fill the exact same role so why would you ever field them competitively?  I also think we all need to be careful when looking at the buffs.  Think Eternal Guard also are being overrated here..

    For me I think elite infantry seems to be fitting into 3 tiers based on early observations and the mathhammer I have seen so far for competitive play, obviously very early goings but:

    Phoenix Guard seem to be alone at the top tier and can basically function in any city or build without a lot of buff bubbles needed imo.  Hammerers, Greatswords, and Blackguard are tier 2, with being potentially the most efficient unit for a role but very much being  city/army dependent.  Then there is tier 3 which is basically everything else in the elite infantry mould (infantry that is not default battleline and over 100pts). 

    What about eternal guard you may wonder?  The list of conditions needed to make them competent I think are just a bit too oppressive and restrictive to make them worth the price of Hammerers and on par with anything in the top 2 tiers, I just don't think there is a good enough reason to preference them in almost any situation that will appear regularly.  Remember that there purpose is not to charge, which means they represent a purely defensive role.  The opponent has no obligation to engage them if they can avoid it, or they will lose the singular bonus that puts them in the conversation.  Additionally their complete lack of rend hides a significantly weaker damage output then the stats first suggest.  Against a 4+ save opponent they do less damage standing still then every other elite unit I have mentioned above AND Executioners.   Defensively they are purely worse then phoenix guard, offensively they are worse then all the other elites against something with any armour, all of this for a unit that can't move so long as it wants to be effective.  Not great imo.

    I still dont rate Phoenix guard efficiency wise. Sequitors are tougher most of the time. and output considerably more. 16pts is a killer.

    I agree with restrictive roll of Eternal guard.  The big bonus to them is they get their bonus every turn except for the turn they charge. So they are great at securing objectives or anvilling infront of a gunline. This is important to us because our shooting is an anomoly and is far more efficient than our melee. I definitely wouldnt take them as our only elite, but they are one of the best units in the game at what they do

    Blackguard vs executioners is arguable. I agree blackguard are indeed better. But at 30x Blackguard are still 14pts and executioners become 11pts.  The only difference to me is rend vs mortal wounds.. The melee advantage of blackguard is easily offset by the point cost imo.  You can get an extra 20x 3/4 attacks and bodies with a crossbow unit you can buy with the savings.

    Tempest Eye Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    11 minutes ago, Kramer said:

    What do you mean by kite? 
    but the threat range turn one is surely range + move + 3” + run and shoot for tempest eye? 

    Im saying the irondrakes need to be stationary at 16" to get efficiency. Once they move, their efficiency gets halved. Same goes for sisters and crossbowmen - who unfortunately usually cannot hit the enemy turn 1. Darkshards need to go tempest or burn a ca to shoot first turn. Im just pointing out that with our high drops we will likely have to take first turn so its a real issue for us not being able to hit with shooting for an entire turn.

    Kite = ability to shoot and move so enemy cannot touch them.

    • Like 1
    • Thanks 1

    Tempest Eye Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted · Edited by soots

    On 10/19/2019 at 9:18 AM, swarmofseals said:

    Darkshards with a hurricanum and hawkeyed have a WDR of .1111, which is better than Irondrakes while moving but worse while stationary. Irondrakes also get a lot better if you have Longbeards, which are a great screen that you might want to take anyway.

    Handgunners have a WDR of .0954 with just the General buff, no need for hawkeyed or hurricanum (although you get the same effect without the general and with hawkeyed + hurricanum).

    Crossbows have a WDR of .1389, but that does require the general. Without the general it's .112.

    Sisters of the Watch have a WDR of .127, and they can get that with either Hurricanum or a Nomad Prince. 

    You're absolutely right that Darkshards are the most offensively efficient option when moving, but they get beat out by Crossbows, Irondrakes, and Sisters of the Watch when stationary. Handgunners get beaten by all of these options, but they are also the least dependent on buffs.  They (and Sisters of the Watch) also benefit from stand and shoot.

    I think if you are running a Soulscream bridge build then Darkshards are probably not the way to go, but if you aren't planning to bridge then they might be the best option.

    Do you know the wdr calculator?

    I did numbers and my ratings showed corsairs having a higher efficiency than dark shards. But obvious pros and cons. I feel like Freecities cannot do low drops and will likely go first. So you need some type of way to shoot at 24+ inches otherwise you literally lose a turn of the game which just completely destroys effiency. This pretty much voids the stand and shoot units. Especially 16" range which is basically only 1 turn of double shots before enemy is in. I rate dark shards best because they can kite with 16" range whereas corsairs cannot.

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted · Edited by soots

    16 hours ago, Fundre said:

    Can you please give me a little more explination as to how this chart works? Thanks

    Damage ratings are based off average wounds per 100 pts.

    For example. Greatswords are 7.62. A 160 pt unit does 20 * 4/6 * 4/6 (20 attacks, 3s to hit, 3s to wound) is 8.888 wounds. In 20a, they will trigger the 6+ mw 3.33 times for a total of 12.2 wounds. 160 pts for 12.2wounds is a rating of 7.62 wounds per 100pts. This doesnt signify the rend and mw, which is very important and i stated that in the post.

    There is a lot of assumptions for stuff like will the unit typically have a freeguild hero within 18" (I would probably not do this as foot gen is very static and the mounted general is a different comp). So i excluded this bonus, but i said you can get it in the notes section. Other bonuses like Darkshards having more than x models is included because that is an easy requirement.

    Defensive ratings are relative amount of attacks they can withstand per 100w. The numbers are for comparative purposes.

    Greatswords have 8.  To kill a 160pt unit of greatswords. you need to do 20 no rend wounds. (half saved). 160/20 = 8.

    Phoenix guard are 4. To kill a 160pt unit. You need to do 40 wounds (half saved by armor, half by ward). 160/40 = 4.

    There are obviously other synergies/spells you can pile on. Like, typically you might want to throw an alchemist into a unit of arkanauts to get double shot. In which case, ive added the cost of an alchemist into the cost of the unit (and you can see its not as efficient as 20 arkanauts by themselves).  My assumptions are based off  whether the bonus is typically inherently included or whether you need to pay for (whether its paying points or meeting requirements which you typically would not want to do). 

    Its not a perfect system, but it gives a good measurement for optimal efficiencies and makes a lot of units look redundant (e.g. pheonix guard vs sequitors, pistoliers vs gryphon knights)

    • Like 1

    AoS 2 - Cities of Sigmar Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    Did my own efficiency ratings for decent units

    Damage = unsaved wounds per100 points (doesnt say if rend or mw, but does include wounds)

    Rend0 = (lower better) Relative defensive value against rend 0 (value for each wound per point) (Rend1 and Rend2 with their rend respectively)

    Blue = melee ratings. grey is missile ratings.

    WG8tLYO.jpg

    (a few assumptions made - e.g. typical unit size to get bonuses, typical loadouts etc)

    Melee Conclusions: 

    • You pay for rend and mw
    • Cost for movement is effectively ignored. Dwarfs do not get a discount for mv4 vs elven mv6. Saw this with Skaven. IMO big oversight
    • Pistoliers > gryphon knights at nearly everything.  Better defense, better move, better offense.
    • Eternal guard (rated at standing still) is possibly the most efficient unit in the game if it does not charge.
    • Corsairs with a fleetmaster are at around Plaguemonk output.
    • Sequitors are amazing. 
    • Melee elites. imo. . id go executioner/blackguard.  The sorcerer character is a near must include, and their ca makes darkling units charger farther than cavalry (basically 14" + D6 with CAs).  Especially with the synergy from the sorc who will be +2/3 to cast you can get a bridge off easier for alpha striking. 
    • There are a few alpha striking SC units that i didnt include. They have very poor efficiency from my last review

    Missile Conclusions

    • Shooting efficiency is similar to melee. This is the first game ive played that does this. Scratch that, first army. I wasnt expecting this. Usually doing ranged damage involves a greater cost. It will  be feasible to not take in any melee at all considering you can shoot in combat and we can msu. Everyones gonna hate us
    • Hurricanum is a near must include. Every unit benefits. and it doesnt have the "Wholly" requisite. 2 May even be worthwhile to cover more area and do some crazy character sniping.
    • Crossbowmen vs darkshards has been discussed to death.  Corsairs are more efficient, but i dislike the 9" range because thats guaranteed charge range whereas 16/24 isnt. I dont like stand and shoot crossbowmen, let alone sisters/irondrake with shorter range for obvious reasons (maybe in living city with a guaranteed range drop to alpha enemy off table)
    •  Ballista is the most efficient -2 shot we have.

     

    • Like 4

    AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    This looks to be the most broken city. Definitely needs the no-charge after the extra move.

    Also, anyone here not thinking about the ridiculous alpha striking double shoot units? XBowmen and Irondrakes being dropped within range deleting whole units? I immediately saw the same kind of power levels when LoN got their book and gravesites and Skaven got their rules. I feel like this is easily the new aspiring level of optimise hammer.

     

    Let`s chat: Anvilguard

    in Cities of Sigmar

    Posted

    On 10/2/2019 at 5:13 AM, Ignatius "Nate" T said:

    Hordes of Corsairs are still the way to go. Or at least that’s what I’ll be playing. 

     

    Things that jump out initially at me are: 

    Vitrioc Spray making rend totally unnecessary and the huge numbers of attacks you can get from a horde of corsairs incredible. They didn’t get buffs to hit or wound but throwing another attack on them from a Fleetmaster and generating large numbers of wounds should do great work. With that power it favors large numbers of weaker attacks than it does more quality ones. 

     

    And most important in my opinion is the command ability. Keep a unit of 10-20 handbow corsairs wrapped around a fleetmaster just behind a unit or 2 of 40 more corsairs in combat. String the handbow unit out and pick them. You should be able to cover huge amounts of the board as other units benefit from battleshock immunity as long as they are wholly within even just 1 model from the handbow unit. Solves the issue of your corsairs running in the first round of combat and you only need 1 CP a turn to keep them all in the fight instead of 1 per unit. 

    Phoenician Corsairs hit hard and hit guaranteed with the Pheonician CA. Legit tactic imo.

    Also, someone said corsairs are 80/240 (10/40). Can anyone confirm if the discount for 40 is 240 or 280?

    AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

    in Death

    Posted · Edited by soots

    Brainstorming ideas based off what we know.

    Fluffy CAs

    - armywide 5+ ignore pain(ala necrons). this may be a ward or built in resurrect/resummon or even both. With supporting modifiers in items and characters. They have to be just as tough as nighthaunt if they want to be the elite of undead.

    - ignore battleshock. Elite troops. plus the fact they will be very expensive troops so unlikely to need to take many if at all.

    Mortek guard. Gotta be expensive and tough compared to GG. Im thinking there is going to be a lot of sequitor fighting styles in this army because they have multiple personalities/owners. They may even rock 2w and be very expensive. The biggest question mark is their movement. Skeletons rock a disastrous mv4. not sure if these guys will follow suite. 3+/4+/-1/3a.

    Deathriders. I honestly cannot see these guys better than bloodknights. Vampire > construct. Knights for the most part are not statistically good in AoS unfortunately. 

    Bonereapers. Probably take an ogre, make it better, tougher, add the army rules. then add 3 abilities that can be switched on or off. im expecting 3+, 4+ 3a. -1, 2d and stances like +1a, -1 to be hit, reroll armor saves, reroll hits and wounds

    Morghasts.  Im expecting a point drop to around 80

    Crawler. this is huge. Im expecting this to be like 36" range. D6mw + X per 10 models. They specifically stated it destroys fortifications. So might have an effect on custom scenery.

    katakros- im expecting the Morathi x damager per turn cap rule. I also expect some amazing CA and CP generation.  Wouldnt surprise me if he got a bonus to turn order.

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