ianob
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Posts posted by ianob
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First Cohort is basically unplayable. You dont have enough characters to win any character-based missions, you dont have enough units to hold enough table space or objectives for the other kind of missions. You also don't have enough damage output to table people, and even if you did you wouldnt have enough damage output spread across the table to reliably kill enough of your opponents' models to get enough kill points to place anywhere in an event (if we're talking competitive play anyway)
Nagash does not have a good damage output. People constantly overestimate how much damage he deals. Nagash needs, at absolute minimum, 1 other spellcaster (preferably a Necro to bring VDM to up your damage output even more) and preferably 2 both to give him enough worthwhile things to cast and to hold objectives in some scenarios. You also need, at minimum, 2 large objective holding units (a common problem I see with Nagash lists is that they only include one big unit and then fill up on Dire Wolves). This doesn't leave you with an awful lot of list options but does make you make a lot of hard decisions. Nagash list building is very interesting, but it definitely does not include battalions. You simply dont have the points for them.
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3 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:
If the issue is that the ruleset is permissive, and the Designers commentary and Warscroll give permission ...
If you could point me at that qualification that can’t be over-ruled by a Warscroll unit Ability, I’d be really appreciative.
Neither give permission to use Endless Spells or Endless Spell models. The warscroll says nothing about Endless Spells or using Endless Spell models, so that's irrelevant too. You're reaching with your counterarguments here.
We're going to have to agree to disagree until we see an FAQ otherwise we're going to go round in circles
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15 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:
“Endless spells have Pitched Battle profiles and a points cost. By paying the spell’s points cost, all WIZARDS in the player’s army know that endless spell, and the player can use (and re-use) one endless spell model of the appropriate type in the battle.” GHB 2018 p.48
The Curseling can redirect a casting attempt through ‘Vessel Of Chaos’.
The qualifiers are in game, and because the Warscroll abilities over-ride Core Rules they would have access to knowledge/items that they wouldn’t normally as part of army creation.
A Curseling could dispel the spell, with vessel of chaos, and could immediately attempt to cast it ... but they don’t know the the spell ... and couldn’t cast it later in game. (That is a different ability.) And can’t steal it from a unit using ‘glean magic’ ... because it is not on the unit’s Warscroll.
Right. But in all instances of spell rules, there is a *completely separate* qualifier for your ability to use or not use an endless spell model. You've just quoted one of them. And since we're in a matched play scenario here, the use of the model specifically requires you to have paid the points for it. There is still nothing here that suggests you can ever cast an endless spell that you didnt pay points for. The Curseling Designers' Commentary does not say that he can do this in matched play. Similarly nothing indicates that other similar abilities can do the same (eg Nagash knowing enemy Death wizards' spells).
I don't disagree at all that there is ambiguity here, but let's not pretend that it's clear cut and completely dried that this is allowed. The rules simply don't cover it, and since AoS is a permissive ruleset, without an FAQ that explicitly allows this in matched play it's not legal.
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25 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:
Between ethereal, shademist, arcane shield and MoG's debuff I think you can get a blob of Hosts to survive and chew through about anything
Survive yes. Chew through things, no. The damage output of spirit hosts is absolutely abysmal.
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3 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:
This is just not true, to include them in your army list it states you have to pay the points for them and have the model.
The curseling rule on the warscroll is completely separate, as it's a unique rule on his warscroll. Hell GW have even FAQ's this to say it's okay so at this point it's not a debate anymore.
1) Page reference? Im not aware that it explicitly states this. Not that we dont know that paying points is the intention, but without specific wording indicating how the rule works we also dont have specific wording to discern how Tzeentch abilities interact with it.
2) That is not an FAQ, it's a designers' commentary, and does not specify matched play. Outside of matched play ES don't cost points, so without a qualifier to that extent, it really doesn't help solve the issue.
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1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:
You only pay for things before the game begins. Anything summoned onto the board after the game begins doesn’t use the points mechanic anymore.
eg Summoned Daemons ... no longer use any reserve points. You would need to have your available models. But I don’t need to pay reserve points to bring on a new Blue Horrors Unit. I just need to have them in my available models to place on table. (And fulfil Any in-game mechanic required.)
So, the player would need to have their own copy of the model in their “bag of tricks”. Because one can’t summon stuff to the board if you don’t have the model. (Because even though they are stealing the spell, they’re not stealing the model from their opponent.)
There is literally nothing in the rules that supports this viewpoint.
The rules don't actually stipulate that you need to pay point to know OR use the endless spell, but its plainly obvious that that's what's intended by them having PB profiles. The only stipulation is that you must have a model and a warscroll, so if we follow your logic, anyone can use endless spells without paying points for them.
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Any chance of a rules pack ASAP for this? Not long now to be choosing and painting armies without knowing what rukesnyoure using/not using! Cheers
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1 hour ago, Drib said:
The wording in the GHB is a bit unclear, you pay to know the spell but the model part is a bit strange worded.
It definitely doesn’t have zero ambiguity I agree, but Endless spells do have a min and max unit size, and you don’t get to just *use things* in matched play if they have points values without paying for them, so no idea why people would think this would be an exception to the rule.
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9 minutes ago, Drib said:
If you bring your own there is no problem, or ask your opponent for his.
In narrative sure. In matched play, endless spells have a points cost, so you don’t have them available to use if you didn’t pay for them.
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On 7/13/2018 at 7:28 AM, Hounsou83 said:
What do you think about the Changeling casting a purple sun on the enemy army at turn one ?
You can’t. You do *know* enemy endless spells, but since this is matched play and you must pay for ES in matched play, you can’t actually cast the spell as you have no model. So no stealing endless spells from opponents, unfortunately.
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48 minutes ago, choocheelo said:
Guys, how work
2 Lens of Refraction: This lens channels
malicious spells away from the bearer and
their allies.
Each time a friendly unit within 6" of the
bearer would suffer any mortal wounds from a
spell cast by an enemy WIZARD, roll a D3 and
reduce the number of mortal wounds suffered
by the result.With curse of years?
You dont cast Curse of Years against anything near a Lens. Much like most mortal wound spells, Lens completely turns it off, realistically.
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17 hours ago, Teuchter said:
That makes a lot of sense. I am building some lists atm with Nagash, a Necromancer and a Flying Vampire Lord and 40 Skeletons and The Spell portal. What I cant decide is whether or not to use 2 or 4 morghasts harbringers. 4 limits me to 2 units of dire wolves to fill out the battleline and leave me with at 1950 for the command point. 2 lets me take 20 chainrasps and 3 units of wolves, or 40 chainrasps and 1 unit of wolves.
Is 2 a big enough reliable hammer. I am short on cash atm and I dont want to buy it all to experiment.
Any advice for a scrub?
Cheers,
Personally I don’t think that you can afford to take anything else in a Nagash list.; all that you have room for are units and at least one necro. In the new missions you have to be able to be mobile and/or cover a lot of board. Forget theorycrafting things like “hammer unit” and so on; if you don’t have bodies on the board, you aren’t winning the game.
1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:You can only dispell endless spells at the start of the hero phase. So you can only do so before your other casting, not after.
@Sception is right, and further than that, you *will* find yourself dispelling your own portal most turns to reposition it. As an example, I played two games lastnight and there were exactly 0 turns where I didn’t dispel and reposition my portal.
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A lot of lists in this thread are neglecting some important things, assuming they're meant for matched play. People seem to be busy squeezing models into lists without considering how they're going to actually win games!
1) Nagash should not be your only hero/behemoth. Multiple missions require you to hold or at least push more than one objective with a hero/behemoth, a hero with an artifact, or a wizard. You have to work extra guys in there somewhere.
2) Much like above, some missions require you to move as the objective moves. These armies posted are all quite immobile (even Nagash isnt that fast without Pinions which many people don't take).
3) There is a big cost to using Nagash as your only hero, in that you dont get an artifact - and in the case of squeezing in 1-drop First Cohort, you actually miss out on two! It might look good on paper, but you're really wasting army potential by doing this.
4) Another cost to not having extra casters with Nagash is the lack of spells for him to cast. Endless spells will get you somewhere, but he really wants to spellportal himself on turn 1 if he's your only caster, meaning no more ES until turn 2. This is another reason to squeeze in at minimum one Necromancer.
5) Always start the game with a command point. Period. It lets you reactively Inspiring Presence against turn 1 alpha strikes, it lets you use Nagash's command ability in a turn in which you also need to rez a unit. 2 would be ideal but it's hard to squeeze that in.
6) Don't neglect damage output! Nagash does not do a lot of damage by himself, ultimately. You can debuff things til thw cows come home but if you're not putting out the hurt you aren't winning games. If you havent got a Necromancer you're missing Vanhels Danse, if you're running nothing but Dire Wolves and a few skellies you have effectively no damage potential.
Making good Nagash lists is hard, but don't fall into these traps!
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Having an internal debate with myself, decided to write an article instead!Which is better: Ripperdactyls or Terradons?
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Pretty sure these updates warscrolls are all in error. They’re not only overpowered but also I can’t inagine them making such wholesale changes without letting us know or releasing an article.
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Ironically I want to go back to my original LoN tournament list (LoS+deathmarch) but can’t due to going up 110 points. Deathmarch isn’t really playable anymore though unfortunately, so that list isn’t so good anymore.
AoS 2 - Grand Host of Nagash Discussion
in Death
Posted · Edited by ianob
I have literally never in either v1 or v2 not been able to find the space to put a unit of 40 skeletons, 30 Grave Guard, 15 black knights or 30 Grimghasts (the large things I summon regularly). Not even once. I’m not saying it’s never going to happen, it clearly will at some point, but it is incredibly uncommon. Gravesites are either contested (or close enough toncontested that you wouldn’t fit a unit of 10 OR a unit of 30) or defended and usable. It has a lot to do with gravesite placement I think.
If it *is* a negative point worth considering, the Grave-space issue certainly doesn’t outweigh max unit size point reductions,drop efficiency, vanhels efficiency, larger units still being on the table to invocation rather than needing to spend a command point to resummon, etc.