MotherGoose
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Posts posted by MotherGoose
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25 minutes ago, Flippy said:
Only Katakros. Zandtos unique CA is Mortis Praetorian only and Arkhan is factionless (and he doesn’t provide any buff).
Volkmortian too, a factionless amazing hero like arkhan would be awesome - but I guess that would change the whole direction of our book. I'm happy to be 'forced' into certain factions depending who I want to use if it means we keep multiple abilities/heroic actions/monstrous actions rather than most other books that just get a single ability for the army.
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23 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
My point is more that for small factions like OBR it's not really an option to have heroes be (soft) faction locked, because list variety is already lower. In an army with a lot of warscrolls, it's a design choice you can afford, so to speak, because generic options are available.
I guess the designers wanted to have a middle ground between Legions of Nagash (named characters being completely faction locked) and Soulblight 2nd ed (Belladamma and Mannfred in every list of every subfaction). Personally, I think most of the unique characters can still function decently in subfactions other than their own, but obviously reward playing them "on theme".
Not to say you are wrong for wanting them to be more cross over friendly, though. I totally get that desire.
Yea I get that, at least with the big dudes (nef, man, vhord etc.) They are decent on their own and could see play in other factions, just a lot worse.
Poor old little guys like gorslav and torgillius are straight up unusable now outside vyrkos (which is still my favourite, so not THAT bad for me personally), but I love the models and would enjoy using them in other factions. I guess torgillius is an easy necro stand-in on a slightly bigger base.
It also sort of means if you want to try out multiple unique characters (let's be honest vyrkos is the main thing I'm talking about here as they just have so many), then you have to keep running the same Legion just to try out different characters. Some of us only get to play once a week, month or whatever, so it's a bit lame to almost HAVE to be vyrkos over and over to try out certain characters, whereas before they could easily be tested in other Legions even if they were slightly better in their own.
Also how do you do bold and italic text? I don't like using caps all the time lol
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14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
But Bonereapers also have 19 warscrolls, not 47.
I'm not really sure that should come into it - khorne have korghus who is good outside of goretide and has just the single locked ability, plenty of unique characters that don't have locked abilities or factions and have 40+ warscrolls as well as (not)endless spells. I don't think a faction should be punished for having variety.
Neferata loses her spell on other units (which is incredible), her -1 to hit bubble other than herself and can't redeploy other units if she isn't in her subfaction, she only keeps the hunger and slaying a hero on 5+, that is a drastic difference to the point I'd argue she's almost unusable outside of her faction (as are a lot of the others).
In comparison, korghus loses a once per battle ability, which isn't even entirely lost if you include some units also locked into his subfaction.
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7 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:
I think the issue with this book is that we have A LOT of unique characters and locking them all into sub factions to me feels very restrictive. It’s pretty common and logical to make sub-faction specific characters more aligned with that sub faction, but many of the characters in this book have multiple abilities as well as spells locked into those factions, and you would have to be kind of desperate to play them out with… neferata for example has two abilities and a spell all locked into LOB. For me it would have made a lot more sense to make some of those spells or abilities attached to units thematically associated with the sub faction instead, or just not attached at all. I feel like one spell/ ability is enough, still giving you freedom to move elsewhere, but making them more potent in their aligned sub-faction.
The little heroes are stand out ones for me - torgillius and gorslav being utterly unusable outside of vyrkos and jumped from 80 to 120 points.
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1 hour ago, Beliman said:
A lot of unique characters that have a subfaction keyword can only buff their own units (Brokk Grugnisson, Lyrior, Astreia, Gardus, Khorgos Khul, etc...). There are a few ones that can buff anyone, like Volturnos (Ionrach), Grinkrak (King's gitz) or Awlrach (Grieving Legion), but they are not that common and they usually are from old 3.0 books.
That makes it feel a little less annoying, but bonereapers who come out at the same time as us have special characters with subfaction keywords who can buff everyone and don't have locked abilities.
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22 minutes ago, Beliman said:
I think that's the same for all AoS factions. Appart from a few "gods" (Archaon, Nagash, etc...) every unique character is tied to his/her own subfaction.
Btw, you can still play with them using another subfaction.
Yeah, however (I may be wrong) I believe this is the one of the first times (or at least the most numerous time) they've locked abilities behind the sub faction too - like gorslav can now return a summonable VYRKOS unit at half health, rather than any summonable unit, radukars 'command' that isn't a command anymore now only affects VYRKOS units, belladammas exploding 6s etc etc. It means whilst yes you CAN still use them in other factions, you're losing a massive amount of utility and sacrificing a hell of a lot compared to before.
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10 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:
@RocketPropelledGrenade @MotherGoose I wish I could share you guys enthusiasm for the new book. I feel like I’ve expressed my gripes so won’t do so in detail again. There are so many subjective elements that it’s impossibly to please everyone, but I’m glad there seem to be many aspects that people are excited about. Hopefully I’ll come to share some of that enthusiasm with time. I wonder if maybe SBGL players are a bit too fair minded haha. I feel like a lot of other armies have some standout power combos/ mechanics and as long as they’re not game breaking that’s kind of ok. Broken auto picks obviously aren’t fun, but for me personally having a hard to deal with teleport ability, or a spell that allows you to provide a scary turn 1 threat isn’t overly problematic, and for me this book just feels a bit flat. The Mortarchs with locked in sub-faction abilities are a big miss for me, which is a real shame as I want access to lore of the deathmages (necro is an ok cheap option I’m aware, but his mobility is bad)… If I ran LOB I would definitely include neferata though.
Like you say it's impossible to please everyone, and similarly to what others have said I've been mentioning things maybe as a silver lining for those that aren't happy with it - remember also rules will change again soon enough which may benefit us (ghb, 4.0? New tome again), and I definitely share your disappointment with how they've really pushed locking certain units/heroes into certain subfactions.
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34 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:
LoB has some obvious appeal for sure (which is nice for me, I love that and fielded it from even before the White Dwarf buffs). However, I wouldn't discount the other Legions. They don't have a super obvious centerpiece option like the VLOZD you mention, but they definitely have some good stuff going on.
Legion of Night has some great mobility, and their Heroic Action alone gives them a huge leg up in the current season. I know some folks are down on the Mannfred changes, but I think his 2 extra wounds and improved hunger will be a great multiplier on the Armour of Templehof, and if you aren't able to one-phase him through his 3+/6++, you probably won't kill him all game. What's more, his counter-charge ability means it's very easy to avoid exposing him to enemy charges while getting melee value out of him.
Kastelai lost the wounds buff and the movement buff is kinda meh, but boosts to attacks and damage are multiplicative with each other, which is amazing. And the increase to base rend on Blood Knights helps with your main unbuffable stat in an edition where Rend is super important. If you take Vhordrai and/or the command trait to spread buffs around, you can get early increases to big chunks of your army and just do massive damage, and the boosts to our Summonables means you don't need to sacrifice much in the way of Blood Knights to fit all that in.
Vyrkos got a radical shift in functionality, but with Summonable units going hardcore stonks, their new direction is amazing. Add in the Belladama buffs and I don't think I need to say much more.
Even Avengorii seem better than they used to be (which admittedly, isn't hard). The key there is that you don't look at the allegiance abilities for the buffs, you look at how the new Lauka Vai and Vengorian Lord scrolls interact with their monster mash battleline. Will it win tournaments? Very unlikely. Will it win games? Maybe! Much more likely to than previously.
Agree with everything you've said, I'm loving the new book, but admittedly I immediately disliked mannfreds direction the moment I saw his previous warscroll leak 2 years ago - was it strong? Obviously, but it felt a bit lame and not fun to play against - especially so for melee focused armies that would find it extremely difficult or nigh on impossible to kill or wound him at all. I didn't try him out much due to that, and much prefer the direction they've taken with him now - it also feels a little more thematic.
Neferata is an outright beast now and vampire magic is FINALLY scary rather than just 6 inches of extra move (which was very good, but very boring too especially when it's really the only decent spell in a lot of games). I'm not a fan of 'auto includes' and I believe every spell now has a place, and at least doesn't feel like you're gimping yourself by taking a different one.
Legion of blood and vyrkos are the stand out ones for me personally, I love all the abilities and combos, but all the legions seem very playable and mostly potentially very competitive, and (more importantly), very fun.
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Just now, TechnoVampire said:
Haha ok perfect. Never considered these tactics, but a bit of movement cheese can go a long way. Thanks! 😆
ps I’ve run out of reactions for the day, but I’m enjoying many of the ideas and comments.
Yea it's the same for all endless spells etc. You don't have to go across the entire unit and end behind them, just touch them and come back.
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4 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:
I’m also trying to work out how likely it is riders of ruin will come into play with combat range being 3”, base sizes, and coherence meaning many things are in 2 ranks. Will we ever be riding over things?
It'll be incredibly easy to get off, for one you can just run or use command to run 6 and have 16 inch move to go over anything - remember you don't have to go over the whole unit, just pop a base 1mm over then move back away from them.
If you're 3" away when you make a charge move, if you roll a 4+ then you can fly 0.1 inch over the unit you're charging then fly back and land in combat.
If you're retreating, just fly 0.1 inch over the models you're in combat with then use the remaining 9.9 inches to retreat.
It'll be extremely easy to do.
Picture a scenario where your opponent fails a charge on blood knights, it's now your turn and they're 6.5 inches away from you.
You move 6.6 to touch them, then move back 3.4 so you're out of combat, you do d3 mortals.
Now you're 3.4 inches away for your charge, you roll a 4 and move 3.5 inches over them to do mortals again and move back 0.4 inches to be within half an inch for a successful charge. That's 2d3 mortals before even fighting.
How about you move 3" away from 3 front line units, get a super lucky 10+ charge to go over them and into the tasty heroes hiding behind, deal 3d3 mortals to the front lines and get into combat with the heroes at the back.
In legion of night they can even do it in the enemy turn.
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17 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:
I hope this isn't a mistake on GW's part, and is instead a consequence of there being approximately a million banned Vyrkos heroes.
I've got a feeling it's intended but wouldn't be surprised if not. It's worded differently to the spell lore and specifically states 'including unique *vyrkos* units'
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Just now, JackStreicher said:
I need a link to the missing Warscrolls! ^^
Look at the post above yours 😄
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3 minutes ago, AHexInScarletRed said:
Heya, where did you see the Coven Throne warscroll? Thanksie!
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I love the new allegiance abilities and unique actions. I'm disappointed with a few things (reroll casts gone, radukar only dropping 25 points and losing his summon and +1 attack bubble for everyone) but overall I'm much happier with the whole book and the buffs we got.
Some stuff is straight up awesome - coven throne spell that does d3 mortals to a hero with 6 or less wounds and if they die you add a vampire lord to your army!? Yes please. So flavourful.
Mortis engine now has 18 inch range mortals and heals d3+4 models back if they're near a gravesite, amazing.
Neferata having innate +1 to cast and +1 attack? Great. Mannfreds Legion actually having good abilities? Sick. Vyrkos lost rerolls but became what they sort of felt like they should be.
All our spells are great, items and traits are all great (not a fan of the once per battle avengorri ones).
Multiple ways of getting 5+ ward, commands that became abilities, it's all brilliant in my opinion.
The hunger being on all vamps is amazing, including bats - who are now fast cheap chaff that heal themselves and can actually do damage.
Bella lost rerolls yea but now she has a 24 inch bubble of 6s splitting, a spell that still turns people into wolves but now she can add d3 models to that unit with a heroic action.
Vlozd got much more reliable shooting, gained a load of monstrous actions depending which subfaction you choose, got a better spell and gained 2 wounds with much better healing capability.
Blood knights can move/retreat/charge/pile in over models 3 or less wounds and do damage to them, gained range and rend.
Wight kings and some others being summonable is just outright awesome.
I'd argue on first look that all of our warscrolls are viable now. As are all of the legions, they're all great in their own way and all feel very different. Also 3+ ethereal 16 wound vlozd that heals up to 6 from combat each turn in Legion of blood looks a little spicy...
The one thing I hate however is they are locking warscroll abilities to legions now.
I think it's so different and surprisingly so that most people's kneejerk reaction is to look at everything we've lost and how we used to play, rather than see new things and new ways of playing.
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25 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:
I agree, a lot of the changes actually look pretty solid to me because of the increased consistency. Everyone remember, a new book always looks the worst immediately on release, when you see everything that was lost but don't yet really understand all the new stuff you have gained.
I have not yet seen all the warscrolls (only bad pictures of a few of them), but there are a few I like a lot. Skeletons finally work, which is great. Direwolves got a lot better with that 6" pile-in. Zombies got worse, but it feels like their role is now more appropriate (they are no longer an absurd mortal wounds hammer). A cheap 20 model tarpit that kicks back mortals is very good in its own right.
EDIT: Also, I am running Black Knights this edition. Summonable, 18" threat range, auto-charge and deal significant charge mortals. I don't know how anyone can read that warscroll and think they have no role. They have a great charge-> mortals->tarpit->resurrect loop going on.
King on steed also makes them do mortals on 4s, is better in combat himself and is summonable too!
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7 hours ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:
Where have you seen the VLoZD? That's one I've been eager to find, but I only see Prince Vhordrai.
I'm not into all the doom and gloom going around, though. This is fine. They changed some stuff. They took some stuff out, added some new stuff, tweaked some other stuff. Is it the same? No, absolutely not. But it's not the sky falling. And some of the statements I've seen in this thread are straight up wrong. Neferata looks substantially better than before, for example. I played her a lot, and I am really excited about the changes.
She also benefits from her allegiance now so gets +1 to cast and +1 attack
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2 minutes ago, Sception said:
Nerfs are everywhere and a lot of the old tricks are gone, but buffs are everywhere too. A non-exhaustive list:
1) Vampire lord +1 attack to a summonable unit buff is no longer a command ability. So it doesn't take command points, can't be blocked by roar or morghasts, can stack with other combat phase command abilities, and can be used multiple times in the same combat phase if you have more than one vampire lord and more than one summonable unit in combat to buff. This is big.
2) zombies nerfed to hell - no mortals on 6s, no 6" pile in... or are they? they deal mortals on 5+ as they die now, and a nearby corpse cart gives them the mortals on 6s proc, and they're 2 attacks base now. Zombies on their own are way weaker, but zombies with a corpse cart nearby? Plus maybe a vampire lord to grant them an extra attack? Brutal.
3) Vyrkos, now the zombie faction, can heal those zombies more, give them extra movement, and a 5+ ward
4) rend 2 blood knights, a big deal to help with our current lacking rend
5) spell lores generally improved, particularly for vampires. fewer total, but no duds.
6) Neferata's redeploy gimmick is cool (finally some hint of her subterfuge & espionage specialty) and twilight allure being automatic instead of a command ability is good
7) Legion of Blood just looking kinda good in general - why choose between fighty and casty when you can do both instead?
I don't know. Just, a lot different. Old tricks won't work, but there are new tricks here. It could pan out worse than previous book, but overall I'm feeling pretty positive.
I loved zombies before, but I think I actually prefer them now - it's viable to use both zombies and skeletons now, and zombies are a great tarpit that no one is going to want to be in combat with zombies now, before they could be nuked by a big bad, now they will **** them up either way - Gordrakk charging into 40 zombies? here have 13 mortals on average just from us dying, oh hi we are back next turn.
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8 minutes ago, Doko said:
Glad for you guys if you find positive things on this book becase im very down after read it.
In general we lost around the 80% of our old habilitys,gone the -ld of units,the extra d3 models in each ld,the +wound and rerolls of vyrkos etc EVERYTHING have been gone and replaced by useless things or nothing.
What have positive and good this book? I only see the old book with 70% less habilitys and nothing new,no new tricks etc.
I only am somewhat happy with the new spells because they are very good but that it is all
I get it, there's a hell of a lot that's changed. Some big ones too like Manny no longer teleports and lost his command ability - but i was never a fan of the teleport anyway so I'm not too fussed.
Process the change and then reread all the rules again - there's a hell of a lot of good abilities and warscrolls in there. Some massive changes (zombies) and some nice little changes like how skeletons now rend and ressurect at the start of combat for all dead models rather than just when activating and only for models that died in that combat phase like before for instance. You could have 5 skeletons left out of 30, charge them into combat and you immediately roll 25 dice and each 4+ is one coming back, you outnumber the enemy and you have rend attacks, have a vampire nearby and they all have +1 attack with rend.
Blood knights always rend 2 and 2" range is another nice addition, with the hunger being added to ALL vampire units including vargheists and even fell bats. We can bring a unit back on a 4+ in the movement phase now (enemies too), which can change games. We have summonable heroes, unrestricted 6++ on all units, all heroes now bring back 3 models instead of d3, +1 if near a gravesite. Blood knights in Kastelai can become 4 attacks each damage 3 on the charge with rend 2. Vhordrai's scroll is amazing. Manny and nef both up to 14 wounds, VLOZD likely up to 16 but can't see. Mortarchs are generals in addition for all legions rather than just their own. We have half the spells, traits and items but near enough all of them seem really good compared to 1 good one per legion with an array of garbage. That's just off the top of my head, I'm going to read through it all again shortly.
Black knights still suck.
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1 minute ago, Sception said:
wight kings are probably summonable and thus can be raised once after they die, which is probably where the difference is there.
I'm pleased with the massive buff to vampire lords, though it's kind of funny that basically since the start of AoS we've seen old VC players asking for vampire lords to be tougher, stronger, better casters, anything more than support heroes, and this book shows up with a huge buff... to their support ability, making them more of a dedicated support hero than ever before. 😛
Yeah overall I love the changes to our abilities and subfcations (not so much vyrkos losing rerolls) also looks like unique vyrkos can take items and traits? Mistake maybe...
Vampire Lords in Legion of blood could be so cool now 6 attacks damage 2 in melee and +1 to cast out of melee... I'm just confused as to why they stayed 5 wounds when most foot heroes seem to be going up to 6 (a lot of khorne, new bonereapers etc.)
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Our last book... 'made with 3.0 in mind' doesn't seem so anymore otherwise why have they felt the need to change so much lol
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Just now, Sception said:
blood knights are rend 2 all the time, damage 2 on the charge
Yeah I forgot that, but 230 points and lost retreat and charge... as you say there's such a surprising amount of change its hard to call whether it'll be better or worse. Overall I'd say the subfactions are more powerful and obviously the spells... only time will tell.
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Vampires being cheaper than a Wight king feels wrong. Also I'm yet to see belladammas rules, she's lost rerolls to cast for vyrkos and dropped to 170 so I'm a little worried one of my favourite heroes has become worse.
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Well.... a lot is very different. Wasnt expecting such massive changes.
I like the changes personally, spells down to 3 each per lore but all really good, legions almost completely changed other than kastelai. Mannfred no longer nopes out of combat but has some nice abilities... most of the rules are on reddit.
Overall I'm liking what I'm seeing, only thing I'm bummed about is vyrkos lost rerolls to cast
and Bella is down to 170 which worries me.
Vhordrai is amazing and the mortarchs are up to 14 wounds so I assume vlozd is now 16 but can't see in the pics.
Blood knights lost retreat and charge but now get riders of ruin on the generic movement, gained 2 inch range (yay) and rend 2 on the charge.
Returning half a unit is now just a 4+ roll at end of movement (3+ if its our phase) graves do the same for setting up units but now also +1 to returned models from heroes (which is now a solid 3 instead of d3 and its just for any units within 12 of a hero)
6+ ward without restrictions.
Summonable hero's? All i see is the rat Prince guy but there may be more which is cool.
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Love all of it. Can't wait.
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and Bella is down to 170 which worries me.
AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion
in Death
Posted
What time are the day 1 faqs usually released?