MotherGoose

Yea I get that, at least with the big dudes (nef, man, vhord etc.) They are decent on their own and could see play in other factions, just a lot worse. Poor old little guys like gorslav and torgillius are straight up unusable now outside vyrkos (which is still my favourite, so not THAT bad for me personally), but I love the models and would enjoy using them in other factions. I guess torgillius is an easy necro stand-in on a slightly bigger base. It also sort of means if you want to try out multiple unique characters (let's be honest vyrkos is the main thing I'm talking about here as they just have so many), then you have to keep running the same Legion just to try out different characters. Some of us only get to play once a week, month or whatever, so it's a bit lame to almost HAVE to be vyrkos over and over to try out certain characters, whereas before they could easily be tested in other Legions even if they were slightly better in their own. Also how do you do bold and italic text? I don't like using caps all the time lol

I'm not really sure that should come into it - khorne have korghus who is good outside of goretide and has just the single locked ability, plenty of unique characters that don't have locked abilities or factions and have 40+ warscrolls as well as (not)endless spells. I don't think a faction should be punished for having variety. Neferata loses her spell on other units (which is incredible), her -1 to hit bubble other than herself and can't redeploy other units if she isn't in her subfaction, she only keeps the hunger and slaying a hero on 5+, that is a drastic difference to the point I'd argue she's almost unusable outside of her faction (as are a lot of the others). In comparison, korghus loses a once per battle ability, which isn't even entirely lost if you include some units also locked into his subfaction.

The little heroes are stand out ones for me - torgillius and gorslav being utterly unusable outside of vyrkos and jumped from 80 to 120 points.

That makes it feel a little less annoying, but bonereapers who come out at the same time as us have special characters with subfaction keywords who can buff everyone and don't have locked abilities.

Yeah, however (I may be wrong) I believe this is the one of the first times (or at least the most numerous time) they've locked abilities behind the sub faction too - like gorslav can now return a summonable VYRKOS unit at half health, rather than any summonable unit, radukars 'command' that isn't a command anymore now only affects VYRKOS units, belladammas exploding 6s etc etc. It means whilst yes you CAN still use them in other factions, you're losing a massive amount of utility and sacrificing a hell of a lot compared to before.

Like you say it's impossible to please everyone, and similarly to what others have said I've been mentioning things maybe as a silver lining for those that aren't happy with it - remember also rules will change again soon enough which may benefit us (ghb, 4.0? New tome again), and I definitely share your disappointment with how they've really pushed locking certain units/heroes into certain subfactions.

Agree with everything you've said, I'm loving the new book, but admittedly I immediately disliked mannfreds direction the moment I saw his previous warscroll leak 2 years ago - was it strong? Obviously, but it felt a bit lame and not fun to play against - especially so for melee focused armies that would find it extremely difficult or nigh on impossible to kill or wound him at all. I didn't try him out much due to that, and much prefer the direction they've taken with him now - it also feels a little more thematic. Neferata is an outright beast now and vampire magic is FINALLY scary rather than just 6 inches of extra move (which was very good, but very boring too especially when it's really the only decent spell in a lot of games). I'm not a fan of 'auto includes' and I believe every spell now has a place, and at least doesn't feel like you're gimping yourself by taking a different one. Legion of blood and vyrkos are the stand out ones for me personally, I love all the abilities and combos, but all the legions seem very playable and mostly potentially very competitive, and (more importantly), very fun.

Yea it's the same for all endless spells etc. You don't have to go across the entire unit and end behind them, just touch them and come back.

It'll be incredibly easy to get off, for one you can just run or use command to run 6 and have 16 inch move to go over anything - remember you don't have to go over the whole unit, just pop a base 1mm over then move back away from them. If you're 3" away when you make a charge move, if you roll a 4+ then you can fly 0.1 inch over the unit you're charging then fly back and land in combat. If you're retreating, just fly 0.1 inch over the models you're in combat with then use the remaining 9.9 inches to retreat. It'll be extremely easy to do. Picture a scenario where your opponent fails a charge on blood knights, it's now your turn and they're 6.5 inches away from you. You move 6.6 to touch them, then move back 3.4 so you're out of combat, you do d3 mortals. Now you're 3.4 inches away for your charge, you roll a 4 and move 3.5 inches over them to do mortals again and move back 0.4 inches to be within half an inch for a successful charge. That's 2d3 mortals before even fighting. How about you move 3" away from 3 front line units, get a super lucky 10+ charge to go over them and into the tasty heroes hiding behind, deal 3d3 mortals to the front lines and get into combat with the heroes at the back. In legion of night they can even do it in the enemy turn.

I've got a feeling it's intended but wouldn't be surprised if not. It's worded differently to the spell lore and specifically states 'including unique *vyrkos* units'

Look at the post above yours 😄

https://imgur.io/a/kSEJq0Y

I love the new allegiance abilities and unique actions. I'm disappointed with a few things (reroll casts gone, radukar only dropping 25 points and losing his summon and +1 attack bubble for everyone) but overall I'm much happier with the whole book and the buffs we got. Some stuff is straight up awesome - coven throne spell that does d3 mortals to a hero with 6 or less wounds and if they die you add a vampire lord to your army!? Yes please. So flavourful. Mortis engine now has 18 inch range mortals and heals d3+4 models back if they're near a gravesite, amazing. Neferata having innate +1 to cast and +1 attack? Great. Mannfreds Legion actually having good abilities? Sick. Vyrkos lost rerolls but became what they sort of felt like they should be. All our spells are great, items and traits are all great (not a fan of the once per battle avengorri ones). Multiple ways of getting 5+ ward, commands that became abilities, it's all brilliant in my opinion. The hunger being on all vamps is amazing, including bats - who are now fast cheap chaff that heal themselves and can actually do damage. Bella lost rerolls yea but now she has a 24 inch bubble of 6s splitting, a spell that still turns people into wolves but now she can add d3 models to that unit with a heroic action. Vlozd got much more reliable shooting, gained a load of monstrous actions depending which subfaction you choose, got a better spell and gained 2 wounds with much better healing capability. Blood knights can move/retreat/charge/pile in over models 3 or less wounds and do damage to them, gained range and rend. Wight kings and some others being summonable is just outright awesome. I'd argue on first look that all of our warscrolls are viable now. As are all of the legions, they're all great in their own way and all feel very different. Also 3+ ethereal 16 wound vlozd that heals up to 6 from combat each turn in Legion of blood looks a little spicy... The one thing I hate however is they are locking warscroll abilities to legions now. I think it's so different and surprisingly so that most people's kneejerk reaction is to look at everything we've lost and how we used to play, rather than see new things and new ways of playing.

King on steed also makes them do mortals on 4s, is better in combat himself and is summonable too!

She also benefits from her allegiance now so gets +1 to cast and +1 attack

I loved zombies before, but I think I actually prefer them now - it's viable to use both zombies and skeletons now, and zombies are a great tarpit that no one is going to want to be in combat with zombies now, before they could be nuked by a big bad, now they will **** them up either way - Gordrakk charging into 40 zombies? here have 13 mortals on average just from us dying, oh hi we are back next turn.

I get it, there's a hell of a lot that's changed. Some big ones too like Manny no longer teleports and lost his command ability - but i was never a fan of the teleport anyway so I'm not too fussed. Process the change and then reread all the rules again - there's a hell of a lot of good abilities and warscrolls in there. Some massive changes (zombies) and some nice little changes like how skeletons now rend and ressurect at the start of combat for all dead models rather than just when activating and only for models that died in that combat phase like before for instance. You could have 5 skeletons left out of 30, charge them into combat and you immediately roll 25 dice and each 4+ is one coming back, you outnumber the enemy and you have rend attacks, have a vampire nearby and they all have +1 attack with rend. Blood knights always rend 2 and 2" range is another nice addition, with the hunger being added to ALL vampire units including vargheists and even fell bats. We can bring a unit back on a 4+ in the movement phase now (enemies too), which can change games. We have summonable heroes, unrestricted 6++ on all units, all heroes now bring back 3 models instead of d3, +1 if near a gravesite. Blood knights in Kastelai can become 4 attacks each damage 3 on the charge with rend 2. Vhordrai's scroll is amazing. Manny and nef both up to 14 wounds, VLOZD likely up to 16 but can't see. Mortarchs are generals in addition for all legions rather than just their own. We have half the spells, traits and items but near enough all of them seem really good compared to 1 good one per legion with an array of garbage. That's just off the top of my head, I'm going to read through it all again shortly. Black knights still suck.

Yeah overall I love the changes to our abilities and subfcations (not so much vyrkos losing rerolls) also looks like unique vyrkos can take items and traits? Mistake maybe... Vampire Lords in Legion of blood could be so cool now 6 attacks damage 2 in melee and +1 to cast out of melee... I'm just confused as to why they stayed 5 wounds when most foot heroes seem to be going up to 6 (a lot of khorne, new bonereapers etc.)

Our last book... 'made with 3.0 in mind' doesn't seem so anymore otherwise why have they felt the need to change so much lol

Yeah I forgot that, but 230 points and lost retreat and charge... as you say there's such a surprising amount of change its hard to call whether it'll be better or worse. Overall I'd say the subfactions are more powerful and obviously the spells... only time will tell.

Vampires being cheaper than a Wight king feels wrong. Also I'm yet to see belladammas rules, she's lost rerolls to cast for vyrkos and dropped to 170 so I'm a little worried one of my favourite heroes has become worse.

Well.... a lot is very different. Wasnt expecting such massive changes. I like the changes personally, spells down to 3 each per lore but all really good, legions almost completely changed other than kastelai. Mannfred no longer nopes out of combat but has some nice abilities... most of the rules are on reddit. Overall I'm liking what I'm seeing, only thing I'm bummed about is vyrkos lost rerolls to cast and Bella is down to 170 which worries me. Vhordrai is amazing and the mortarchs are up to 14 wounds so I assume vlozd is now 16 but can't see in the pics. Blood knights lost retreat and charge but now get riders of ruin on the generic movement, gained 2 inch range (yay) and rend 2 on the charge. Returning half a unit is now just a 4+ roll at end of movement (3+ if its our phase) graves do the same for setting up units but now also +1 to returned models from heroes (which is now a solid 3 instead of d3 and its just for any units within 12 of a hero) 6+ ward without restrictions. Summonable hero's? All i see is the rat Prince guy but there may be more which is cool.

Love all of it. Can't wait.

Yep completely agree. My brother collects lumineth and got the collectors edition when it came out, then like 4 months later there was another book with the other half of the army, then like 4 months after that there was another book... I'm a strong believer that the tomes should have tons of lore and awesome artwork, cool pictures and paint tutorials and maybe the rules too - but then make the rules alone and warscrolls free to download and any updates free to download. OR you buy the book at a premium (30-40 quid each time is expensive), and then you're given a free digital version too which will be updated with faqs and new rules etc. Currently you fork out for a book that's outdated in a month or two. At least we are a step in the right direction with the app using updated rules and faqs.

Our book was 'designed with 3.0 in mind' 2 years ago. The game has changed significantly since then with all the new tomes and rules flying about. I'm expecting more than some simple battle tactics and grand strats, i think it would be silly to copy paste a 2 year old tome from a different edition of the game that is also one of the most underperforming armies currently. Don't get me wrong, a lot of it will undoubtedly be the same, but see my previous post for expected changes such as access to 4+ rally on certain units, increase to rend/damage for others, buff/change to our gravesites, healing and ward saves including removing restrictions. I'm not sure how much I believe 'made with 3.0 in mind'... 3.0 is three years of an evolving game with constant new tomes, how can you have that in mind? In my opinion that comment was made more to hush the complainers that would be upset about a new tome at the end of an edition and therefore likely quickly becoming bad and needing an update that they won't get for ages because of a brand new book already. The only things I could see them 'having in mind' when making our previous book, was how it works with core rules changes such as the blood knights retreat+charge ability. I think it's safe to assume a lot of our warscrolls will receive significant changes, such as a vampire lord being way worse in combat than a goblin lord (riding squig guy). 1" range lances etc etc. Ofcourse all of this could be included in warscrolls, so our actual battle traits may stay the same/have a minor change, but I don't think we really need a huge change to our core of the army to become good. Either way this isn't a preorder for me - I'll check the videos out when they release and see whether it's worth buying an entire new book for or just waiting for wahapedia to update, khorne was different as they were SO old that I knew they'd have big changes and wanted a new tome.