Siegfried VII
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Posts posted by Siegfried VII
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13 minutes ago, Ragest said:
Hurakan's are too complicated to play them in casual games and too weak for tournament games.
This sums it up very well in one sentence me thinks.. 🙂
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1 hour ago, chosen_of_khaine said:
@Siegfried VII I do agree that Lumineth will probably not become enormously more consistent in terms of tournament results, as Seraphon, KO, and Tzeentch have better matchups against them than most, but to your point that they are only 10 wounds on a 5+ save, and your opponent will have screens, etc - from what I can tell, the reality is that the 6" pile in in any direction is an IMMENSELY powerful tool, and on a unit that has a 14" (or 16" near windmage) with fly, a decent ranged attack and a 3" melee attack with high rend, they will affect the game way, WAY beyond their points cost and I expect to see them everywhere in tournament lists. If they were a more expensive unit I would be inclinded to agree with you, but they are incredibly cheap for how many core rules they are allowed to break.
Regardless of how effective it is in tournament settings, it will be entirely unpleasant to play against in any other context. It's not even something that you "game" the rules with either, from what I can tell it is exactly their intended purpose as a unit.Edit: And to be clear, I'm saying this as someone who LOVES Lumineth and how well the rules match the lore, and honestly thinks High Elves should be allowed to break the rules since they are better than everyone else BUT I like to think I can recognize problematic rules when I see them...
I believe the unit is very good, no argument there! But in my opinion it will have value with just 2-3 units outside the battalion and it's charge with 6 inches and fly will be very useful in scoring objectives far away reaching behind chaf units or clearing said units from objectives. I think they pointed correctly and will have value in lists. Just not with this combo.
In casual games Idon't see people using this strategy anyways and I think casual players won't be bothered with more complex strategies etc, so I believe it won't be used as much in casual games too, but for other reasons..
P.S. I love Lumineth too and WE ARE better than everyone else..🤣🤣
4 hours ago, LuminethMage said:I really want to see how this works on the table. With other units taking part, space problems etc. I'm sure there are some cases, where people who are good with this can pull off some great plays. I have a hard time seeing this to be a common thing in most games though. But I might be wrong. I find this hard to judge.
It happens all the time and it has happened to me many times. What people say tha battle plans rarely survive contact with the enemy is quite true..
There were quite a few times something that looked awesome to me on the paper (like the reroll save Stoneguard get from the battalion), as soon as the time came to implement it in battle and saw that the wholly within 12 inches at the combat is very unwieldly and even more unwieldly if you want to get the initiative and go and charge/claim objectives..
As you said we'll see where the dust will settle after some months (or more if 3rd Edition comes so soon as July) and we be proven right or wrong .. Only time will tell.. 🙂
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2 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:
It's easiest to imagine with a single entity like a bloodthirster - charge two units in on opposite sides, pile out to 2.9" so they are equidistant from the enemy, and the enemy can't pile in at all and can only fight if it has any 3" range weapons. You can do this against other units too, but they may be able to get a model or two on either end of the unit into your Windchargers if they have enough models to string between both sides and within weapon range. To be clear, with normal pile-in rules this is still a good strategy, but being able to pull out to just under 3" makes it incredibly hard for your opponent to get any models into fighting range.
If you have the battalion, you don't even need to charge into half an inch anyway - you just pile in to exactly where you want to be with all your windchargers and they will never have a chance to hit you first. Then on their turn, you can opt to remain in combat and sit at 2.9" or just disengage entirely and pile back to 2.9" next combat phase.
Of course, you will still lose some windchargers over the course of the game, but your opponent has to put a disproportionate amount of effort into dealing with them, all the while your entire Auralan Legion's worth of other models are capturing objectives and winning the game.Most units will have enough models to string and do damage to thw Windchargers. They are just 10 wounds with 5+ save. With more careful formation on units a good opponent can mitigate the effect even more. Against a single model it is certainly more doable what your're suggesting.
Again this is a very unrealistic in the way that Your opponent will have screens, chaf and can deploy in a way that you won't be able to do such tricks in the first1-2 turns by having each of his units cover the other. There are may armies also who will strike first and be equally fast as you so they may ruin the strategy before you implement it.
Armies with shooting will already have the answer.. Seraphon, Kharadron and Tzeentch will deal in short time with this combo. If this combo can be negated by 3 of the top 6 armies with ease, then it is not a good combo for a tournament. I believe good players may try this, but will eventually move away in favour of more solid strategies..
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34 minutes ago, chosen_of_khaine said:
I've been one to defend Lumineth against plenty of accusations of NPE, but I think you're underestimating just how easy it is to lock down units with Windchargers. Even outside of the battalion, 2 units of windchargers can potentially lock down a single unit all game if your opponent doesn't get a double turn, and for an extremely low cost. Obviously, there are loads of other factors, but you can take 5 units of 5 for only 650 points and have unprecedented control of the board.
In the hands of a good player several units of windchargers are going to be a nightmare to play against, and I suspect a change to pile-in rules is coming in AoS 3.0Can you describe how the Windchargers will be able to lockdown units outside or inside the battalion?
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7 minutes ago, woolf said:
guys is there anyone who has tried out the windrunners in an actual game yet? I listened to warhammer weekly and the honest wargamer and they all talk about the windrunners ability to effectively lock down the opponents units. maybe I'm not experienced enough but personally I really don't see how u can make that work in practice and still be points efficient? maybe someone can explain it?
I understand mechanically how 2 units of windchargers can 2.9" an enemy unit in isolation, but that requires 2x130pts (+maybe the 180pts battalion), and the opponent should very easily be able to clear them with some shooting or a 2nd unit flanking them, I mean they are pretty fragile... And although they could probably hit on the charge without taking much dmg back due to "pile out" and hit with 3" weapons, they don't seem to do much dmg in melee so would seem way less efficient than charging the same unit with some hammer unit that uses the "slay enemy models with damage"-mechanic in order to achieve the same goal of not taking much damage back
I'm honestly puzzled by this one...
Both shows exaggerate. In order to make use of the Batttalion you need either Sevireth or the Windmage to be wholly within12 inches of the windchargers and that limits quite a lot what you can do with the battalion. And the windmage can die quite easily from afar crippling this strategy quite easily..
After some time I believe the windcharger fashion will subside..
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If you go for Ymetrica Avelenor and Stonemage for sure.
Now regardless of what other way you go a Loreseeker and a Windmage for the teleportation are also safe choices.. 😉
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If you want to focus mainly on the Mountain aspect of the army with some support from other aspects (a few vanari/hurakan units) the Ymetrica is the way to go.
If you want a more all around list or focus on another aspect Alumnia is the better choice of the two..
If you want to go Ymetrica do not use more than Avelenor as far as Mountain spirits go and use the battalion. So after Avelenor, a Stonemage and 2 large units of Stoneguard, fill the rest with units that complement you weakness, which is speed.
A Windmage with teleport, Dawnriders, Windchargers are your options here and if you want projection of power Sentinels or Ballistas can do the trick.. 🙂
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17 minutes ago, Beliman said:
I think that's the main problem. Playing against someone that already knows his average dmg and you can't do anything to stop that:
If my 5 wounds with 4+ save hero is attacked by 10 Thunderes, he will probably be dead after some focus fire (don't quote me on that, I didn't make numbers for this example). But if I can position him to at least have cover and Look Out Sir, maybe he will survive the first focus fire.
That's not the case when we put mortal wounds inbetween.A good option could be to remove mortal wounds from all "to hit" rolls (or only for some nighthaunts?) and, Imho, stop magic users to cast spells when they are in melee range unless they have something as battlemage keyword instead of wizard, or whatever.
But you can't know for sure if power of hysh will be cast. If it fails the Sentinels really almost lose a turn of shooting in terms of damage. Also the 5+ or 6+ may not roll the average. On top of that if the enemy character has a mortal wounds protecion then Sentinels get much less effective.
In the end yes fewer dice get rolled but luck is still there.
Small heroes could be buffed but then we risk having unkillable deathstar units with tons of buffs to make their damage etc insane.. That too if the opponent has no similar ways to buff their units can lead to advantages one of the two players can't do anything about..
Another example is summoning where the armies that have it end up playing with 500+pts or more which is not very nice in my opinion.. Slaanesh in the new book has overcosted units for that reason I think, but other armies just play with more points..
In the and it is a very fine line and I don't envy the rules writers of GW at all regarding this. It is very difficult to balance the mechanics of all these vast unique armies without getting them in the end to look all too similar..
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3 minutes ago, stratigo said:
Rolling for first turn after deployment is actually a bad choice, but AoS took an even worse choice with the attempts to out drop enemies and battalions. They should implement what they did in 40k. Players know who is going first before setup. This is rather more balanced, as has been felt in 40k. It really helps mitigate the first turn alpha strike. Now AoS has the double turn, which just needs to go, for this change to mean anything.
Of course you disagree, taking sunmetal weapons away would make it slightly harder to win.
Mate, the army is over performing in competition, and like, obviously doesn't pass the smell check, let's not pretend because you play the army, that the army isn't in the top three. And you just got a big option to kick seraphon in the nards (and most other armies too really)
Regarding what you say in 40k I haven't been in the know for some years now so it may or may not be better, I have no informed opinion regarding this..
The army is not top 3 and all the stats so far are proof of that. That is a FACT that you cannot deny. Now in the future if they actually become top 3 the stats will show it and you'll be able to state your claim backed up by facts.
Anything other than that is our subjective opinions and views so as I said not interested to have a debate with you. Have a nice day!
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4 minutes ago, stratigo said:
Sun metal weapons also exist in combat. It's annoying on wardens too. Sentinels are annoying because they can dump mortal wounds with no counter at all from almost anywhere on the board, and there's not much even other shooting armies can do about it, what tween their range and shining company.
Mortal wounds throw the game off, and slaanesh has the same "precision strike" moved to wounds, where if it really needs to exist, it should be. And also, like, not be on 5s with an increasingly trivial spellcast. It's a bad mechanic, and if Lumineth lost it or had it forced to wounds the army would still be in the top tables, but be ever so slightly less oppressive. Which, ya know, needs to happen because the army is overpowered as is.
Mate the army is not overpowered. I respect your opinion on the sunmetal ability but I dissagree. If Lumineth would have to lose the rule they would need much more robust stats to make up for it or else they would be the new Sylvaneth.
I've seen your posts on the generic topic on regarding Lumineth and I'm not interested in having a debate here for a topic we'll never see eye to eye..
So let's agree that we dissagree and both be happy! 🙂
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1 hour ago, Beliman said:
I can answer that.
If half of your dmg is done by mortal wounds, means that the enemy can't use normal abilities (such as Look out Sir, Cover, Garrison, etc...) to try to minimize half of your damage.
I have exactly the same problems with another mechanic: Fly High and Ranged Weapons. Part of the whole shooting is about LoS and distance, with Fly High I can "cheat" part of my oponents main defense. Having below average ranged damage is irrelevant for the whole point (and not having the option to go full magic or melee doesn't help).
Btw, I completely agree with them. As a KO player, I'm really bored about Alpha Strikes, even if they are the most competitive gameplay for KOs. They are not fun.
Yes I hear that. Mortal wounds can bypass some abilities and that can be annoying.. but if I am to get 8 damage for example on my unit in the end I care what damage I endured and less how it was applied. But I do see your point.
Regarding fly high yes it can be annoying as are all extreme movement tricks.. in general AoS in my opinion can benefit greatly from toning down th edamage units can apply and the extreme movement many armies have..
An easy fix is to make the first turn priority happen on a dice roll rather than the player who finishes deplyment getting to choose.. Just give him a +1 or to win ties and the game will be much more balanced, because every general will have to deploy without the knowledge whether he'll go first or second making for more dynamic deployments and more dynamic games without one drop predetermined plans that have a result some armies losing without getting to play..
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6 hours ago, stratigo said:
XD Maybe GW realized sunmetal weapons were a mistake, but the other units are too new for them to remove without a lot of player rage.
I mean, I can only hope, sunmetal weapons are really dumb and GW needs to stop handing out mortal wounds like candy.
Personally lore-wise I find the sunmetal weapon ability very fitting as a way to incorporate the precision strikes of aelven warriors.
The only case where it is perhaps annoying is on the Sentinels but if we look at the damage output it is not greater than what other armies can do with their shooting options. Ultmately damage is damage so while some people may want to roll their saves if the damage at the end is the same, does it really matter?
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They look awesome and their extra poses make them even better!! 🙂
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56 minutes ago, Aelfric said:
So points adjustments may be the answer - Bladelords down to 100, Wardens up to 140 and it starts to become a realistic choice. Assuming 3.0 is coming, this battletome will have been written with that in mind, so that may also alter the dynamics, though what changes would make Bladelords better I have no idea. Maybe we'll go back to unbinding at 18" instead of 30" or bravery will go 40K style. We can only wait and see.
Something may appear in the FAQ, like the sunmetal ability. It wouldn't be the first time a whole ability was missing from a warscroll.
Making the Wardens expensive won't solve anytning. You can't make something good my making another thing bad. Wardens are not broken,, they're fine as they are in points. Making the Bladelords 100pts won't fix their problems but will make them a less expensive choice.. Because at 300 pts for 15 Bladelords you can then compare them to 20 Wardens for 60 pts more making them a much more appealing choice than they are now..
The best solution though is giving them Sunmetal Weapons rule. Then not only they become better, but make the Lord Regent a much more viable choice and giving them something to synergize with.. I won't get my hopes high but I really hope the ability was missed from the warscroll .. 🙂
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23 minutes ago, Aelfric said:
All that is true, unfortunately. However, given the prevelance of negatives to hit and 3+ saves or better, there are still situations where they would do well. No doubt the Wardens' ability to cause MW will still place them ahead though, since MWs ignore both minus to hit and saves. They do have the 4+ against spells, which I suppose is something.
Well, at least their Guardian ability has some uses and they will be a battleline unit, which helps in some scenarios.
Another bonus, of course, is they don't have 4" pikes.
Perhaps, what they really are is a small scalpel, of 5 - 10, to be air-dropped in to deal with specific threats, rather than facing all-comers and holding objectives like wardens.
I know I'm reaching, but I want them to work in some capacity.
Apart from the bodyguard rule, Wardens do everything better.. heck they don't even need power of hysh to outperform the Bladelords.. and while the 4+ save against magic is neat the fact they're not good makes them one of the last choices for a target for enemy spells. And if they act as bodyguard they just receive the mortal wounds from spells that hit the mage they're guarding.
I hear you about the pikes.. they are a nightmare to play with and transport and I was desperate too not to have to use them but the sad truth is Wardens are our only unit that deals consistently damage and our highest damage dealing unit at the same time.. I even tried recently Stoneguard builds, x3 Mountain builds and it is just not the same..
Even mountains are so swingy.. I played a battle vs Cities and when I came up against some Longbeards with Avelenor my enemy just rolled a couple of 4ups more and Avalenor did only 2 damage from the mortal wounds.. And for the same points again Wardens do double the damage with double the number of wounds, with 30 models for obectives vs one etc
If they don't fix Bladelords and give them sunmetal weapons or at least drop them to 100 pts we are stuck with Wardens whether we like it or not..
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1 hour ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:
@Siegfried VII Thanks for the Info! 😃 Have you factured in the Moonfire Flask? That would be the icing on the cake in that reagrd.
No I didn't.. These stats are without taking into account the moonfire flask because it is a one use trick, but if we add it too then yes it gets even more offending.. 😅
EDIT: Also I would like to add that the stats of the Wardens are not against a unit that has charged them.. if we added that and the moonfire flask the damage would be approximately 30 against a 4+ unit. I just opted not to use it again because it is highly situational..
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9 hours ago, Aelfric said:
Perhaps, if 3.0 does happen, their role may become more evident. They'd be good against Skeleton and Zombie hordes, certainly, and they are not far off. I've been wondering if doubling down on them may work with 15 using their 2" reach perfect strike accompanied by a hero for bonuses. It is consistant reliable damage you can plan for.
I had the same thought and did some mathhammer and the result was dissapointing..
15 Bladelords with perfect strike score 11.48 damage on a 4+ save unit. That is 360pts
30 Wardens without power of hysh on score 17.36 damage on a 4+ save unit.
30 Wardens with power of hysh on score 24.61 damage on a 4+ save unit. Again 360pts
The difference is so great it hurts my weary heart.. 😛
I mean if Wardens have power of hysh (which they should) they do double (!) the damage..
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8 hours ago, chosen_of_khaine said:
Man I love how the bladelords look but I just can't get over their rules. Not just how mediocre they are in combat, but just oversights like having sunmetal weapons but no sunmetal rule, not having the seneschal be a wizard, etc.
Same here... I have ordered 4 boxes of them (before I knew the rules) and for the life of me apart from having 5 to protect my izards from sniping or having 10 to teleport and sit on an obective with Loreseeker for guaranteed scoring I cannot put the in a list in good competitive concience.. Their damage is so bad compared to Wardens that is not funny at all.. They absolutely need sunmetal weapons or dropping to 100pts or else they will be collecting dust on many aelven shelves..
And what hurts me more is that they are so iconic and see them falling so hard from grace.. I mean at this point the Swordmaster warscroll from grand alliance Order is better than them which speaks volumes alone..
I think I will be forever salty about this unit.. 😅
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2 minutes ago, woolf said:
thx yes I see it now. I do wonder what his name is though 😂 I think we should ask for an FAQ on this...
He is not named. There are lots of them in the fluff as far as I know... A faq is needed I guess..
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3 minutes ago, umpac said:
Yeah you're right, thanks! Too tired to read it seems. Even so I much rather take Sentinels than ballistas but at least they aren't a straight upgrade.
As I said on a previous post the mainstream choice will remain Sentinels. Just as you said the difference is not that great and the ballistas can have other uses too me thinks.. 🙂
Also If were to go for more shooting instead of a second unit of 20 sentinels, I would prefer to go for 3 ballistas for the extra utility myself!
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1 minute ago, umpac said:
Yeah I was comparing 10 sentinels vs 1 ballista. 20 vs 3 is a more fair comparison in terms of points (but less so with battalion). They don't have it on their WS, its from the battalion, just looked it up.
No mate, look at the warscroll of the ballista again. On the ability warding lanterns. It says they get +1 attack if they haven't moved. The battalion just replace the same ability with the difference that if the ballista is within 3 inches on another ballista the ward save is 5+ instead of 6+..
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12 minutes ago, umpac said:
Ballistas outside of the battalion deals less damage than a unit of unbuffed Sentinels to all save values even with Hawk buff, so ballistas damage is even more negligible. In the battalion they deal slightly more dmg than unbuffed but still less than buffed sentinels. If you take them it is, as you say, purely for the -1 to hit but then you might as well just take Geminids.
Sorry mate but the math say otherwise..
x20 Sentinels with power do hysh do 7,13 damage on a 4+ save unit.
x20 Sentinels without power of hysh do 4,75 damage on a 4+ save unit.
x3 Ballistas without moving with the +1 to hit from hero do 8,33 damage on a 4+ save unit.
x3 Ballistas that have moved with the +1 to hit from hero do 5,56 damage on a 4+ save unit.
So all in all the ballistas do more damage. The advantage of the Sentinels lies in the no line of sight needing ability they have and the fact they can circumvent the penalties on to hit..
Also the ballistas do not need the battalion for their +1 attack ability. They have it on their warscroll. The battalion just makes the ward save 5+
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4 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:
I agree. Also the addition of hitting on 2’s when within 24” of a hero who’s within 24” of an enemy is quite nice and a pretty forgiving range. That, and the slightly more consistent dmg output (without needing a spell), and also their once a battle -1 to hit to cover charging units, means I reckon they’re quite handy. I’ll have to see how they actually play though. I’m sure in tournaments more sentinels is the way to go, but I don’t think Ballistas are far off, and are also a little easier to slot in to lists at 100pts.
I don't think the battalion is need after much thought unless you would use a Calligrave anyway on you list and want the extra artifact/commad point..
If you just use 3 of them on their own it will be just 20pts more than 20 Sentinels and you 'll get the -1 to hit ability 3 times and be able to spread them in the your deployment zone to prevent pesky teleports and deep strikes while your army goes forward to do the good work!
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22 minutes ago, Tiberius501 said:
So, coming up with some fun tactics; I could see some Ballistas being great in an Alumnia army, where a unit of Wardens or Dawnriders break their shining company to run, ballista shoots a unit with their blinding bolts, then that unit who ran uses the CA to charge after running. They can cover a good amount of ground, still get -1 to hit them and they’ve charged to go first. This may be additionally good if you have Dawnriders going in (being faster than wardens) then having the Wardens break shining company formation to run and charge to keep up with the Dawnriders to then also make use of attacking with 2 units before the enemy get to.
I also think the ballistas will get some use due to their "disrupt shot" rule, because otherwise Sentinels remain the superior choice in terms of damage. To be fair though they have the benefit that they do not need power of hysh to go of to be at their best performance, because if the sentinels fail their power of hysh their damage output becomes almost negligible..
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Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion
in Lumineth Realm-Lords
Posted
I've watched this and it is one of the better shows out there for Lumineth, focusing on the rules and strategies rather than complaining or trolling about our rules.. 🙂