[The Rumour Thread]

15 minutes ago, Ogregut said:

Was chatting to someone at their HQ and they are in the process of bring everything back in house so they can control everything. 

From paint to books. 

Does make sense as they wouldn't have to ship from China and then ship stuff around the world. 

 

I can only imagine how much the pandemic has added to the motivation to do that hah.

Also +1 on what Neverchosen said, the adjacent stuff not the core was what was mostly giving them grief.

[The Rumour Thread]

14 hours ago, Mutton said:

Legion has been waiting for a new release for like 8 months. Really sucks.

My immediate guess as to why GW has done better over the pandemic when it comes to releases is that it is a more vertically integrated company, they do everything in house from the design to testing to production all in Nottingham in the UK. 

A company that outsources it's game design to one company, it's model design to another, and then it's manufacturing to china is a lot more vulnerable, a delay at one company has painful knock on effects that magnify. The recent months long lockdowns in china were likely another huge blow to those outsourcing companies meanwhile GW kept chugging along for the most part.

+1 for local vertical integration and keeping manufacturing in the home country I suppose. The largest problem GW seems to have is that shipping costs have gone absolutely f*cking bonkers insane.

[A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years]

2 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

I guess if you're looking for that it might work, but Stormcast as they are are more tragic heroes. And I think that there is a LOT that can be done with this. There is so much that can be done with the Stormcast flaw that doesn't force them to become immoral or corrupted like with Space Marines.

This is fine and I don't disagree that a lot can be done with the eternals as they are, but I was replying specifically to this comment by Enoby:

 "40k's theme is more flavourful and much easier to catch people in.... lack of strong theme can be good in that sense, it does mean fewer people give the lore a chance... I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull."

I find it harder than 40k to describe various current AoS factions in a way can be said in a sentence or two that immediately puts its hooks into a passer-by and makes them immediately want to learn more. With the possible exception of the Skaven.

IMO That way of hooking people in is probably why the 40k youtube lore scene is so effective.

 

[A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years]

17 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

the studio is still playing catch up on the lore and while Cubicle 7 is giving it the old college try, the background is still two or three editions behind where it should be in terms of development. 

tldr; AoS lacks a strong theme because no one is really sure what the setting is supposed to feel like yet. The lore wants to be simultaneously ever-evolving and static, which is...difficult to accomplish, at best. So it feels ephemeral and ill thought out, rather than cosmic and weighty. 

Interesting. I suppose it hasn't helped what with covid etc. I've heard it said a few times that they are behind on their general model release schedule too amongst other things.

I suppose it's thematic AoS has a messy release considering how fantasy and 40k formed out of 70s and 80s primordial goop over years. 

I hope they are savvy enough to keep going with the improvements and really figure things out. I'd like to see AoS rival warcraft as an IP someday.

[A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years]

24 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

Maybe a 40k fan specifically..? This is the Blood Angels' geneseed flaw innit?

Simplistically yes, but a more compelling version of it. The red thirst is pretty standard vampire stuff and without a transformation. This could be less vampire and more like a feral madness where they are subconsciously aware that they are broken, and the taking of souls is them trying to desperately frankenstein fix their own broken soul by stitching other parts of souls to it creating a soul monster that then affects their physical form in some horrifying way. Then you have the secret cabal cover up which is its own juicy thread and suggests other problems with the eternals.

Or something like that, it's just an example of something compelling that could catch the imagination of someone passing by.

[A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

AoS's setting is not bland, but I'd argue its superficial theme is. By this I mean the idea someone gets of the setting by looking at a few of the models and the blurb. 

For 40k, if an interested person looked into it on a very light level, they'd immediately see "In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war", coupled with a medieval si-fi design with strong 'religious' theming. Without reading a single book, they could become instantly hooked on the lore - wanting to learn more about the "most cruel and bloody regime imaginable". There are specific rules in the setting that guide everything. 

I don't think AoS currently has that kind of pull.

 

Agreed, there's a reason that the AoS youtube lore scene just doesnt work as well as the 40k youtube lore, many things in 40k are compelling for their insanity and this hooks people very easily, most factions have something fascinating about them.

 

In AoS, if I wanted to create that 'Pull' you are talking about I would probably start by making the eternals have something deeply f**ked up about them. For example there could be a severe flaw for some of the eternals exacerbated through dying repeatedly where they start drinking the souls of innocent people. There could be some messed up dynamic where the public are giving a part or all of their soul to the eternal because of their belief and devotion to them, not knowing the eternal is descending into madness. At at a certain point the eternal devolves into being a feral beast and ends up ruling over a backwoods feudal town clad in dark clouds, slowly devouring the souls of the inhabitants and slowly becoming physically monstrous in some way.

Then a secret cabal of eternals that not even other eternals know about come in and exterminate the feral eternal and then cover up what happened by slaughtering the surviving town inhabitants and all in the surrounding area, tens of thousands killed to hide what is happening to just one eternal. The secret cabal believe what they are doing is a necessary evil as having the people turn against the eternals would invite chaos. Then when you start seeing subtle hints of this feral-ness and hunger appearing in a big important character, general etc, its like an 'oh sh*t' moment, are they going to turn too? Is this terrifying flaw in more than just a few of the eternals? What happens if a feral eternal is left to feast and change until it reaches its final form?

I could probably hook a newbie with something like that a lot more easily than they just become more godly and inhuman as they die more, it feels more juicy.

 

Nagash is a great arch-necromancer design visually, and I feel like he could make fascinating antagonist in a video game where he is animated and voiced. (Maybe that game Frontier is making) but I feel if I'm telling someone about him I'm missing a hook, or rather something he accomplished that makes you go 'woah'. I'd have him discover a continent in the mortal realms which is inhabited by a billion unknowing people. He then turns all of those people to undead and then forms them all together creating some kind of named horrifying amalgamation monster out of a billion bodies (or maybe just millions) , something that flows or strides across the land, or maybe a great floating city made of death. The scale of it is the conceptually compelling part here, you get the 'oh this necromancer is so terrifying that he can turn a billion innocent people into this single mind bendingly horrifying creature' kind of deal. 

 

The Skaven are probably the faction with the most lore 'juice' in AoS honestly, they are easiest to explain to someone in a sentence that makes them want to know more and they feel the most unique to warhammer. "Crazy rats that all believe they are the chosen one and build insane machines that blow up killing their side half the time, they are also innumerable." or "Crazy fantasy rat people who can build nuclear bombs" referencing the pseudo-nuke they made in the end times. 

 

Making things instantly compelling and have 'Pull' is hard. Making fantasy factions that stand out from generic fantasy is hard too. 

 

 

 

 

 

[A discussion of the lore of AoS after 7 years]

As someone who has started looking into the lore, and has read this whole thread, my impression is that the lore is improving and becoming more likable, but a lot of that is locked behind the books and many people don't want to read the books because they heard the lore was bad. It's a kind of chicken and egg situation. I can't count how many people I've heard who say: "I've heard the gameplay is good, and I love the look of the models, but I don't find the lore likeable." These people have no interest in the time investment to learn the lore, and what little they do hear just isn't compelling enough to grab them and pull them in.

 

Strangely, I feel like what Age of Sigmar needs more than anything to grow and change opinions on the lore right now is a good and popular videogame. An accessible genuinely solid game that gets good word of mouth, a game that is respected by gamers in general and not just AoS hardcore fans, a game that helps solidify the feel of the universe, and if someone asks me where to start with AoS I can point them toward playing it as an introduction that shows the charm of the mortal realms.

 

Pretty much what Dawn of War 1 did for warhammer 40k.

 

I think Games Workshop came to this same conclusion which is why apparently Frontier games is working on a Age of Sigmar RTS due in late 2023.

 

So Age of empires 4 but an Age of Sigmar game? AoE4 was a pretty big success with 26k mostly positive reviews on steam on a full price game which approximately translates to a 100 million dollar plus game, so it does seem like the RTS market has made something of a come back and AoE4 could be the blue print to make an Age of Sigmar RTS. 

It doesnt have to be quite as successful as Age of Empires 4 of course, just being as popular as mechanicus with 8k mostly positive reviews would still be a fantastic thing for the universe and would help a lot to break down this reputational barrier problem it has.

Hopefully Frontier games pulls through and makes a genuinely charming and good game.