Mirage8112

The play testers on the stream confirmed how this works. The restrictions on CA's are as follows: Each command ability can be used 1 time per phase. A unit/hero can issue 1 command per phase A unit can receive one command per phase. In the case of the Heed the Spirit Song, the TLA is the model issuing the command in the hero phase. He is also the target. In this case, he can issue the command in the hero phase to himself, and issue all out defense to a unit of Kurnoth hunters in the combat phase, and thus the Kurnoths can benefit from both in the their turn. Teleport isn't a move though. It's a set-up. This has been confirmed to still be different from a regular move. They specifically referenced that units that teleport in (or are set-up via summoning for example) can't trigger the "Redeploy" CA because it only works when model ends a regular move within 9". I'm still a bit fuzzy on how this works, since it's all so new. It seems to me that spell lores are given, because they fall under the enchantment umbrella. However, it does seem like a grey area and the book also says that "battletome override core rules" (as always) so it would seem the Unique characters can get access to faction specific spell lores, but maybe not generic ones? It also appears that you can mix and match lores if you have more than one available, so you could take the flaming weapons spell on any wizard without needing a second enhancement; you just wouldn't be able to do that and take a faction specific spell... I think. Spent some time fiddling around with core battalions, and its very possible to run double warlord, but would require us to double up on a hero. Double warsong is attractive for its versatility but it's expensive. Somebody recently mentioned double wraith and at first glance I'd have to agree. -1 to hit and -1 rend seems to beat out the extra attack and extra point of damage. Which is fine. having extra heroes on the board will make it a lot harder for your opponent to score the grand strategy of removing all your heroes, and the innate -1 to hit just makes it that much more attractive. And while we can't get better than -1 total, having the extra -1 from "look out sir" will be very helpful when facing models that gain +hit bonuses at range (i.e. -2 to hit vs +1 to hit results in a net -1 to hit). It's also worth noting that on hit effects (i.e. rolling a 6 to wound deal 1 MW) no longer stack. i.e. Drycha in winterleaf would need to choose between the mortal wound or the extra hit. So would sword hunters. This is mostly a loss, but oddly enough there are a few winners, Drycha in winterleaf with flaming squirmlings would be able to choose between the MW or the extra hit for 2 damage. Might provide some toolkit versatility: fighting something elite with a great save? Take the Mortal wound for 1 damage. Fighting a horde with a low armor save? Take the extra hit for a chance at 4 damage. Could be really ugly.

Agreed. These faction-focus articles really seem to just be a quick overview of the faction generally with a few highlights of how the new rules interact with existing abilities and units. So no big reveals about the rules set. However it is giving me some ideas of things I’m interested in testing. A reenforced block of 20 dryads (4x5) or even a triple reinforced block of 30 (6x5) seems like its going to be crazy hard to shift. Get your stagger right, and you should be able to attack in 3 ranks of 6. That’s 36 attacks, with 2 ranks in the back ready to replace lost models. Even 25mm bases will only be able to get 2 ranks within 1” to attack, and 32mm bases or bigger will only be able to get the first rank in range. If the cap of +/- 1 to stats like saves holds, then dryads won’t really have to worry about fighting in cover, since they will have a 4+ save from have 10+ models in the unit. The “Rally” CA looks really effective on big blocks of troops (of which there will be less on the table): lose 10 get back 2-3 (if it works in your opponents hero phase, then you get another 2ish) . Pair with emerald lifeswarm and get another 2 back every hero phase. That’s ~8 back per turn. Now pair that with the TLA. Position him right (just behind your third staggered rank of dryads) and he can attack without receiving any attacks back. If you don’t have any good spell targets, load him with arcane bolt. Now he can do 2d3 mortal wounds to a charging unit and force it to fight last on a 4+. Artifact options + CA on TLA: Vesperal Gem means he can bring back another d3 dryads (effectively replacing 10 per turn), or auto-heal himself for a total of 2d3+d6 (average of 4-6 wounds). In Gnarlroot, you’d be rolling 3d3+d6 healing ~10 wounds. Pair with the Earth Defends and get a further 6+ vs mortal and any wounds that sneak through. Oakenarmor: Use All out Defense and he’s sporting a 2+ save RR 1’s saving the CP for the rest of the army. Glamorweave: 5+ save vs mortal wounds sounds great, considering ranged mortal wounds are the only real threat to his survivability. Pairing that with his RR 1’s aura, him and the dryads both RR 1’s for saves, as do a unit of charging hunters and anything within 12” of them. If you can manage to get mystic shield off with him, then he’s a 2+ save, RR 1’s. That’s a lot of board control that you can put just about anywhere: just teleport the whole set-up to an open forest (or make one courtesy of silent communion). If you’re concerned about a first turn alpha strike just deploy the whole set-up in reserves and drop it on a free wood. Something with that level of resiliency would make a very effective set-up for holding the center of the board while the rest of the army threatens objectives or generally makes itself a nuisance. WarCom says units can only “benefit” from one command ability at a time, regardless of how it’s issued: Note it doesn’t say you can’t issue multiple commands from a unit, but it’s likely new commands will either replace old ones, or you’ll have too choose which to apply (most likely the former). The preview for pre-order also said that in the new GHB they are reworking/updating all the faction specific endless spells as well. I’m curious in things like the Skullroot will get its damage reduced: D6 mortal wounds twice per turn plus d3 fleeing models is no joke.

Honestly I can’t think of a single change that hasn’t be an overall buff for us or a slight nerf while our most difficult match ups (6-9 eel Squads for example) just became a lot more expensive, harder to play from the new coherency rules, and limited in how many you can field. The branchwraiths summoning got better as well, since 10 dryads vs other minimum sized units means they’ll stick around longer and have to save against fewer attackers. Dryads are also much better in 3.0 being that they have 2 attacks each and a 2” range. The new coherency rules will force units to pack tighter to get more attacks in combat which will make it easier to fit them in a WW; which should also be easier to find on the table. T-revs and spites will largely play the same: it was rare to see them in squads of anything other than 5. But the new command abilities really benefit them, and unit leaders can issue commands, so we don’t need to babysit them with a hero anymore. Since a unit can only benefit from 1 command ability at a time, we can’t just pour 2-3 points every turn into hunters. All-out attack is great on T-revs boosting them to hit on 3’s. Their targets will be smaller and they should be taking less damage in retaliation. Depending on how battleshock works, spites will either play the same, or better. WCom has said only one unit can benefit from inspiring presence at a time which means an MSU list of spites debuffing bravery and forcing a RR on successful tests might be more useful. I’m curious to see how battalions will function beyond what we’ve already seen today. I’m very curious to see how they’re costed. The only reason we took our battalions was to get the extra CP and artifact. But prior to this some factions just had crazy great battalions. I’m not sure why I’d take a battalion from the book unless it was noticeably cheaper or it fit in really well with a broader strategy. The fact that the benefits for one battalion is the ability to one drop all the units in it makes me think faction battalions are are definitely moving to open/narrative play. Or, at the very least, the benefits they have past what’s on their warscroll will be drastically reduced. Depending on points changes, the overall changes to the way 2.0 plays fits right into our playstyle and stuff we were already taking (groups of 6 hunters, blocks of dryads, big monsters) are either relatively stronger (because other stuff got weaker) or received new abilities that makes them a lot more versatile on the tabletop. So far this looks to be a really good edition for us. There are a lot of things we still don’t know, particularly how we pick artifacts and how that fits with the new core battalions. But I like alot of what I’m seeing.

Honestly I think one drop armies are overrated. I will likely be playing for second turn, but first turn has it’s advantages too. With deployment being so important for Sylvaneth there might be some advantage to deploying against an opponent who is trying to capture his preferred turn choice with a one-drop list. Once I know where all those sentinels are it makes deploying important units out of range (or off the board) that much easier. I hope so. I’d like to see artifacts be easier to bring since we have a lot of really interesting stuff in our inventory that never sees play. Also the army composition limits hit today. Hoo-boy. Mandatory MSU lists? Only 1-2 units larger than max size? Limits on endless spells and invocations? Nuts. Couple of things are evident right away, some things will get their min unit size increased, but overall we’re going to see a lot more small units on the board. Indirectly a buff for Alarielle’s spell and wood generation, since it’s a lot easier to kill a unit of 5 than a unit of 30. Should also make her spear more effective at wiping out small screening units since I can’t see somebody spending their 1-2 reenforced unit allotment on screens.

Uh. Ok. I’m just saying the rules aren’t that inconsistent just because an axe has a 2” handle it doesn’t mean it has a 2” reach. And anyone else seen the core battalions?

This is largely consistent with what I'm hearing from other players who use her in this manner. A general feeling of surprise at how versatile she is provided you don't try to pretend she's Skarbrand. This is also great news and about what I expected. Having a resilient multi-wound caster with easy access to a casting bonus (and the ability to increase that) seems to have plugged a hole in our army that was keeping certain builds from being fully viable. Helpful. Although this dovetails nicely with something I've been thinking about for a while now. In the games I've played with the Winterleaf wargrove, I've always been surprised at how much extra damage exploding sixes generates. Extra damage on a group of 6 hunters certainly scratches the "wow look at all that damage" itch when you see an enemy unit get obliterated under the sheer volume of attacks. However, something occurred to me as I've played more games; big blocks of hunters don't really need the extra damage. Most of the time 6 hunters are strong enough that they should wipe just about anything but the most stubborn units with their basic attacks alone. Increasing nuke bomb's damage by 15% doesn't necessarily result in more useful damage, since nuke bombs already wipe just about everything out. This makes me thing that pairing Winterleaf with hunters isn't necessarily the best way to maximize the wargrove's damage output. This makes me think about T-revs. They are one of the most mobile unit in the game, and get a free re-roll in the charge phase thanks to martial memories. They are also one of the few units in the codex with access to rend. Paired with the new command abilities there seems to be some rather interesting opportunities to kit T-revs to be much more effective ambush killers. Hit them with the "all out attack" command ability, and then give them the +1 attack from the Arch-rev "call to battle" CA. Now a unit of 10 T-revs is going from 20 attacks, to 30, hitting on 3's (with 6's exploding) just about anywhere on the board. On average that's about 10 wounds vs a 4+ save (give or take). That's a reasonable amount of damage to be able to put just about anywhere in a 160pt unit, and will absolutely wreck support characters with a 5+ save. Well, if we're talking realism, its isn't solely the length of the weapon but the way the warrior uses the weapon. A claymore has a length of around 5 feet, but you can only hit somebody within 3 feet because the thing is so damn heavily, and you have to hit the target with the center of the blade. An épée however has a length of 3 feet, but with a well placed lunge its range is nearly 7 feet. One would imagine an elf with a light blade almost as long as he is would have a more effective range than a big cow with a crude and extremely heavy axe. I took this to mean one unit per phase. i.e. you can't use multiple CP to make more than one unit immune to battleshock per player turn. Once per game seems too drastic a change. I agree. This is huge change. And it's likely only one of several we'll have to choose from which may drastically affect the early game strategy.

Interesting. That means a unit of 10 dryads will have roughly the same amount of frontage as a squad of 5 T-revenants (Since 5 tree revenants + 1” gap between 32mm base = 9” total). Unless of course you choose to string them out and are prepared to lose them all to a charge. Although I can’t see anybody making that choice in game when shooting is a thing. 1 wound goes through and you lose 5-15 dryads because your string collapses? No thank you. This ties in rather neatly with how I see dryads/t-revs evolving in 3.0. Where the first part of the match involves multiple small units of T-revs teleporting around the board, screening enemy approaches to objectives (forcing them to spend a turn removing the screen before they can capture the objective), while the branchwraith summons replacement screens who teleport in to replace them. If I can focus most all the heavy hitters in the army on one side of the board (and force the other side to waste time clearing screens) then I can have 80% of my army fighting 30% of my opponents in the first half, and then teleport to do the same thing again in the second.

Yeah but where would you remove casualties from in a formation like that? If it loses its end cap, it going to lose models down to a 5 man unit size like a fuse. Generally speaking it seems to me like GW is trying to push large blocks of troops out of the meta. With the smaller table size, units are going to be harder to move around without bumping into terrain and screens. With the new coherency rules you wont be able to daisy chain models anymore and screen large area of the board off with a single line on models. If effect, Gw has reduced the area a large block of troops can screen by 25-30 depending on base size%. This also effects hunters/killer units who have base sizes larger than 25mm and a reach of 1”, as they will have to compress their formation or risk losing models to coherency checks. Also, thankfully, we are largely unaffected by these changes. Dryads have a 2” reach and we usually compress formations anyway to stay within WW’s. Hunters with scythes can attack at 2”, and hunters with swords are best in 3”s anyway. And as @Havelockehas already pointed out revenants (both types) are usually run in 5’s. Granted Drycha’s battalion suffers slightly, but if the rumors pan out faction battalions are going to be open/narrative play only anyway. The arch rev is the only hero that can really keep up with Alarielle. His command ability works over the whole board (if your positioning is good) which means I can can have her follow Alarielle around and still give my hunter block the extra attack. If Alarielle needs an extra combat push or to put more pressure in her area of the board, she can summon hunters and the arch-rev will give them RR’s of 1. I find that that the big block of 6 scythe hunters don’t need as much combat support in a group of 6 (especially in winterleaf) so the group of 3 will benefit more from have the arch-rev around. It also helps having the frozen kernel on a highly mobile hero in case I really need to kill something. Smaller board size means her movement is actually better in 3.0 than 2.0 and everything will be closer. It’s almost like gaining 4” of range up the board and 12” of range across it. 12” of move (with a run if I have to) + 18” range on the frozen kernel means I can supercharge a unit 30” away. That’s pretty much anywhere on a 44” x 60” board unless they touching opposite long edges. How far is the spacing on the front of that stagger? It looks like for every model you stagger you lose something like 1/4 inch of frontage. That means every 5 models will lose 1 models worth of frontage on units greater than 5.

I’ve been writing some practice lists with Alarielle, and I’m finding that I don’t really have any superfluous units I’ve tried to “squeeze in”. Having 740 points tied up in heroes means it’s unlikely you’ll take more than 1-2 additional hero’s (right now I’m looking at the arch-rev and a wraith), a big block of hunters, a treelord, and the rest of the list is filled with MSU T-revs. I do have a block of 10 dryads at the outset, but I’m not committed to that idea yet. Having the wrath means its pretty likely I’ll be able to get the summoning engine up and running first turn once I get throne up (the list has enough chaff that I can lose a unit or two first turn and still replace it second turn). So right now, if I had an an extra 140 points to play with, what would I cut? I need chaff and charge blockers to feed to combat specialists and zone out flyers more than I need another group of hunters. I might be able to trade the Treelord for a TLA, but a TLA is a bigger target than a Treelord, and I’m not sure I really need the extra cast when Alarielle is a 3 cast wizard. Plus, If I need an an extra block of hunters mid match, I bring them on with Alarielle, if I need an extra monster I summon a Treelord. The one thing I can’t get on the table are units of 5 tree revs or minimum blocks of dryads, so those really need to be in the list more than something I can summon when I need it.

So while Durthu’s point cost is only 300, the actual cost to field him and keep him useful throughout the game is more like 380. Is that worth it? I think so. The combination isn’t too difficult to maintain, the risk of losing the second caster is pretty low, and the support hero also support other combats when shes not needed to shore up Durthu’s health. Alarielle has roughly the same scenario going on, in that she like having three support casters (at 80pts apiece) always within range to cast. They don’t have a casting bonus, but to get that same effect of Durthu we’d have to pay 240 pts. What sort of combinations can you pull off with 3 casts on single caster? Throne of vines, Verdant blessing (on a 5), and then vengeful skullroot (on a 4). Place the wood to hit 2 units and then the skullroot can do d6 mortal wounds to any unit it touches. It’s also rumored that predatory endless spells will move twice per turn now. 2d6 mortal wounds per turn on any unit you can touch is a good deal for a 40 pt endless spell. It would be hard to pull that combination off with 3 casters because you wouldn’t benefit from throne on vines on both casts, and even with the Warsong revenant you’d need to have him stationary for a turn and that’s not always feasible. Also, its not that she’s bad in combat, it’s that she won’t last multiple turns in combat. Her warscroll tells me that the first turns should be spent pushing the up the board with her in the back healing minor shooting/combat wounds on treelords and hunters: D3 healing with her passive and bringing back dead hunters for first turn or two. Then she should get stuck in combat mid to late game with skirmishes doing damage at range to support heroes with her shooting while looking for a target of oppertunity. Stacking buffs on her also makes for some serious combinations. Take her with an arch-rev in winterleaf. Pop an extra attack from the arch rev, her command ability, finest hour and titanic duel (providing your target is a monster.) Her attack with Talon with have 5 attacks, hit on 3’s, explode on sixes, wound on 2’s, reroll 1’s. Roll well and you can force your opponent to roll 6-7 saves. On a 4+ save rolling 3-4 dice for an instant kill is nearly a 50-50 shot. I would love to se a keeper taken off the board in a single around of combat without generating depravity points (since it doesn’t deal wounds it just slays the model). 2+ save got you down? There is always the frozen kernel for maximizing one turn of straight combat damage: 10 attacks hitting on 3’s (with titanic duel vs a monster), exploding on sixes, wounding on 2’s rr 1 with -2 rend is roughly 8 rend -2 damage 5 attacks. That’s 20 damage vscs 2+ save and 35 damage vs a 4+ save There’s loads you can do with her. The real advantage is how flexible she is. She can nearly be nearly anywhere on the board (especially now that it’s smaller). She’s decent in combat (provided it doesn’t last multiple turns), decent in magic, does impact hits, should always be at or near full health (provided you don’t over-commit too early). She can summon several different type of units that can tank, deal damage, screen, a support hero, or a bunch of bodies for stealing objectives. Her points reflect her ability to do all of the above when slotted into a list with other units. Overpriced and underpriced is relative to how many other things you can fit in the list to make that happen. If you can build a solid list around her, then she priced fairly. If you can’t, then she overpriced. If you can win with her and not need a portion of your list to win, then she’s underpriced. I’ve seen variously the insinuation that she’s over costed by 120 points or so. Overpriced by 120 points doesn’t mean very much. What can I get for 120pts? A unit of dryads? A Wtych? Two units of spites to screen locally (since they’re pretty much stuck where you put them). Would any of those options make a difference between wining or losing the battle? Not really. You can’t be reckless with her. But paired with the right unit she has an answer for just about anything I can think of provided you’re prepared. She’s a Swiss army hero who synergizes with just about every unit ion the book. Tree-revs make a near perfect screen for her. Her passive healing and spellcasting makes hunters a fair bit more durable. 2 Treelords (1 in list, 1 summoned) make a frustrating screen as well, a 75% chance to disrupt the activation wars, a respectable amount of shooting (5 each 2+/3+ -1 and Alarielles 2+/2+ -2 spear) and quite healable with decent saves (all three of which will benefit from the new monster rules). She can feasibly put 2 WW on the board turn provided you can find a decent target for her spell.) Generalists don’t beat specialists by trying to out-special them. You beat them by switching to playstyle to whatever they are weak against. Fighting a CC specialist? Hang back, shoot and pelt it with magic. Fighting something that crushes the magic phase? Force them to make a play for objectives, charge into a safe combat on the front line (like between two Treelords), Deal a few wounds, take a few wounds, heal the damage to Alarielle and your front line next phase, retreat over the combat, shoot and charge. Think your opponent is going to try to take the first turn and shoot her off the board? Deploy her on the flank out of range or off the board. Trying to pin her in? Heal, summon a wood and teleport away or retreat out of combat and shoot. Do what they can’t. I’ve always said that a good list has to compete in 4 phases of the game or dominate in 2. She has decent spellcasting/command abilities, flying movement, shooting, impact hits on the charge and plenty of close combat damage. She has something to do in every phase and she’s juuust good enough that with buffs she can dominate those phases that your opponent can’t compete in. She is more flexible than any other unit in the battletome. So, do I think I can build a toolkit 2k list with the intention of making use of all of this? Yes. Do I think having an extra 120 points to play with will make or break my ability to pull those things off in game? Not really. Is she invincible? No. But do I think I can keep her alive long enough to do what she needs to do? Yes.

I’ve been thinking about this all day. Particularly how to explain why I think her warscroll could be really good if played in the right way. I (and some others) have pointed out that she is a support role hero, but I don’t think anybody so far has detailed how her kit works in the regard. On top of that, it’s hard to talk about something being “worth it’s points” or “overcosted” when their value isn’t measured by how many models they take off the table (like Skarbrand or Eltharion). There a few things we know about the new edition. Monsters and Hero’s get new abilities (all of which she can benefit from) and she will generate an extra CP at tech start of the game (on account of being a second general). The other thing we know is that board sizes are getting smaller (which is double edged sword, making her more threatening and also more vulnerable.) Everything the game depends on synergy, and warscrolls do not exist in a vacuum. Basically AoS is a buff stacking game where bringing different unit have overlapping abilities that compliment or enhance a units ability to do something. Looking at Alarielle with a “cost to field” (her total points value minus the amount of points she can summon) of 540 points (or so) she’s only as good as the buffs you can stack on her or the buffs she can stack on other units. This is what I was talking about a few pages back regarding Durthu:

Weird triple post. Sorry

See here’s the thing, I’m not trying to get you to agree with me. If you don’t want to play Alarielle: then don’t. Maybe she just doesn’t fit your playstyle, or maybe you just don’t really feel like building your list around her. For whatever reason, your entitled to play your game as you see fit. But that doesn’t mean the unit is garbage just because you can’t find a place for it in your list. You mean after year of COVID lockdowns, with all tournaments local and national being canceled and me refusing to fly since I had a new baby coming this last feb? Can’t say I have a lot of data that’s readily available here. If I had won my last game at Adepticon last time I went I would have placed 10th overall (got fairly ill and played really badly my last game). But again, that was a while ago and my plans to do Adepticon in 2020 and now 2021 were legit foiled. But aside from that this is what I was talking about earlier. Say your doing well and nobody believes you. C'est la vie Bingo. This makes a lot of sense. Sounds like she doesn’t fit your playstyle. And tree revs do an excellent job at keeping up with her. They also make great screens. Woods can also be a good way to get support around her but they require a bit of foresight. Some games are won or lost solely on where WW are placed. Based on the above it really seems you think Alarielle should be played as either a beatstick hero or a super-caster (which she is neither). The units your comparing her to are combat-focused hero’s, and the casters are top-tier casters in magic-themed armies. Niether of which neatly describe Sylvaneth as an army. While we obviously can do combat and casting, trying to out-combat Skarbrand is a fools errand. Alrielle just doesn’t measure up to elite combat-focused hero’s because that’s not really what her kit is for. Her point value reflects her army support abilities more than her combat/casting stats. If those two things are all you care about and ignore her support abilities then yeah: she’s going to look over-costed because your only playing with half her kit. Look, I’m not trying to change your mind or dictate what you play. If you want to play a combat focused army and put all of your points into maximizing damage in unit-on-unit brawls then you should do that. I think I have a good enough understanding of your perspective and playstyle to understand where you’re coming from and why you don’t see her value. I don’t agree with you in the broader sense, but I don’t have any particular problem your style of play either. That being said, I would hope that you could understand the difference between “this unit doesn’t work for me”, and “this unit doesn’t work”. But perhaps that’s asking too much.

I mean you’re not wrong. Looking at losses on the tabletop as mistakes in play rather than balance issues means I can do something about it. I can’t change Alarielle’s cost or rewrite her warscroll. I can adjust my deployment. I can choose not to charge her in unsupported. I can change how I use her on the tabletop. In fact, I do everything I can to understand why something is pointed the way it is rather than writing it off wholesale. Even units I don’t regularly play. Isn’t that why this forum exists? To make changes in play and list building to find success it’s what is admittedly a difficult faction to play? And then to spread the success to other players? Or is this the place we all cry and moan about how hard life is and and how GW hates us and how the only way we’ll ever be good is if we get that mythically OP battletome? The thing is people only listen to bad news. Especially with Warhammer. I’ve been in the game since 7th edition fantasy and its way better than it used to be but if a faction takes more than a little skill to play you’ll hear “it sucks” way more often then how good they can be. Tell everyone you’re getting rolled and “playing is hard” you’ll find a lot of agreement. Say your doing fine and all your hear is “maybe your opponents are bad.” We’ve had a lot of really good changes. The change to our woods is huge. The changes to Alarielle’s warscroll are really promising. The new model seems to fill a really nice roll in the army. We have a lot of new tools. Personally I’m stoked and can’t wait to get back to rolling over players with my “sub par army” once I’m not on 24 hour diaper duty.

Missed that! Good catch! I do suspect there might be a change to this, only because unit champions can issue commands now. Previously you had to commit a hero to babysitting a unit to ensure your immunity. I also wonder how fast we’ll be burning through CP now. They are reset every turn aren’t they?

Aggressive? Not at all. Frustrated? Absolutely. I’ll tell you why: It is. Generally, I do very well with my Sylvaneth in both competitive games and friendly games. So much so that I don’t really feel the faction is nearly as bad as people say it is. The reason I say that is every single game I’ve lost has been due to a tactical error on my part, or 1-2 rolls that just didn’t pan out (I.e. failing a 3” charge). Now that’s not the army’s design problem or a points problem, that’s either a tactical error: misplacing a screen, failing to account for a unit ability, or doing something in the wrong order; or dice (it happens). Every time it’s happened, I’ve adjusted my play and never made the same error again. If it’s just dice, a put all my dice in a circle and put one dice in the middle and then hit it with a hammer as a warning to the others. 😉 Most of my lists include units that are widely regarded to be too expensive, inefficient and yet I smash just about everything I come up against. Why? Because the game is about more than whether a unit is perceived to be overcosted by 40-50 pts and more about how they fit in the broader structure of the army. Use the tool in the way is designed to be used, it works great. Use it wrong and and you’ll probably have a low opinion of it. There’s nothing more frustrating than hearing somebody holding a screwdriver and complaining, loudly, that their hammer is the worst hammer anyone has ever made. A lot of units by themselves don’t work really well. Paired with 2-3 of the right units they’re absolutely devastating. So, in the case of the Lumineth do you know what you did wrong? Like, maybe, having Alarielle within 18” of a casting unit at the start of the hero phase? how about the other games? Did you properly screen her? Did you overcommit? Did you have proper support? Or did you play everything absolutely perfectly and there was nothing you can do? Your whole line of logic boils down to the same thing: Alarielle is not worth her points. She is not worth bringing to competitive games because she’s “too expensive”. That implies that their are models in our battletome that are pointed properly and are worth bringing to competitive games. My point is, that if that is true and the other models are a better investment, why aren’t we winning tournaments with them? You’re right that almost nobody brings Alarielle to tournaments, but if the models they do bring are pointed so much more efficiently, why isn’t it working? At the end of the day a loss is a loss and a win is a win. The proof is in the pudding. It makes no sense to encourage players to continue doing something that clearly isn’t working when there are new options. I’d say your half right. Firstly I’d say that because your right that not every summoning mechanic works like that during the game. Not every armys summoning mechanic is the same: the currency for summoning for Tzneetch is different than Slaanesh than Khorne. Those armies have a very different play style than us, and bring new units onto the table in different ways. There summoning points are baked into the army, not specific units. Secondly I’d say your wrong, because this is how Alarielle’s summoning works. Taking 540 points for Alarielle without summoning doesn’t really change the list make-up of what you’ll be likely to field. whether those Hunters hit the field at deployment or at mid game doesn’t change the fact that 200 pts of hunters hit the field either way. You’ve also (probably inadvertently) highlighted a good point why Alarielles summoning is useful and how it is underused. Almost nobody brings anything other than hunters onto the table. Being able to bring 10 t-revs and teleport across the board to steal a back line objective, or bring a hero to capture an objective for an extra victory point, or bring in an extra treelord for the new monster bonus or stomp is a tremendous advantage that almost nobody uses. I agree that it useless, which was my point. Pointing out Alarielle can be focus fired is a useless observation. Everything can be focus fired if its placed in a vulnerable position. So don’t do that and you should be good... right? Unless your point is that Alarielle is vulnerable no matter where she is on the board. Or that she will get auto-destroyed turn 1 by every army and there is nothing you can ever do. Is that what your saying? Nobody seems to be talking about Roar. The ability to shut down command abilities on a 3+? Goodbye battleshock immunity. That will have great synergy with the new Warsong-Rev and opens up Drycha/spite leadership bomb. 10 spites and Drycha, throwing out a bunch of wounds within a -3 to leadership and no battleshock immunity is going to be brutal against unit sizes over 20. Even at Ld 10.

540 points. Because unless you’re a total dummy you’ll bring out her summoning before sticking her in combat. Also not really sure how you tie something up in combat that can retreat and charge. The only reason Alarielle should be in combat is if your want her to be there. Speculation. As I said it takes 50 sentinel shots at 18” to kill her in one phase. If she’s within 18” of 50 sentinels it’s not the warscroll’s fault she died: it’s yours. Incidently, 50 sentinels at 18” will kill just about everything in the game in a single phase (except Morathi). Things that they won’t kill outright (Nagash/Kragnos) will be so badly crippled they might as well be dead. But again, if you’re within 18” of 50 sentinels with any high-cost unit: you’re doing it wrong. It’s comments like this that I don’t understand. If we had a number of viable builds doing well at tournaments I would say you had a point. There would be no reason to consider taking Alarielle, especially if it breaks apart the synergy of something that’s already proven to work. If we were crushing tournaments with hunter spam, or winning consistently with Deepkin allies, or even placing top 10 at major tournaments with Durthu/free spirits battalions I might be inclined to listen to you. But we aren’t winning tournaments. None of that is happening. So. Until you can show me a proven tournament winning list, stop telling me how something which hasn’t even been officially released yet, has no chance at being even remotely competitive. If you think I’m way off base then show me what you think our most competitive list is and then tell me how tournaments it has won. Hell not even that; tell me how many top 10 finishes it’s had, and tell me why at list with Alarielle would be worse. Otherwise stop pretending her warscroll is so much worse than anything else in the game, and just resolve to play something else. Let the rest of us who are actually interested in making her unique toolkit work come up with play solutions to the current challenges in the meta without you telling how bad things are based on absolutely no experience, or on fictional worst case scenarios that are easily avoided by anybody remotely familiar with our playstyle and an ounce of generalship. I mean ffs. Nothing says “warhammer” like saying something is the worst thing in history without actually having played it.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a certain type of player who just flat out refuses to spend 600 pts on a single unit just as a matter of principle. I only say that because the amount of discussion of “is she worth her points” only really comes down arguing over a 100 pt average difference. I say that because we’re really talking about a 540 pt model, not a 740 point one. @Landohammer has pointed this out already: But the thing is: it’s not a tax. A tax is taking a unit you don’t really want to get a benefit you do want. The units Alarielle summons you would probably be taking anyway, the only difference being when the unit is deployed. Those 200 pts of summoned hunters would have been on your list anyway, so the additional cost is totally irrelevant. The next most expensive unit in our battletome is either Durthu or Drycha. I hear a lot of discussion about water or not Drycha is worth her points (my opinion is yes) but rarely do get the same discussion about Durthu. Alarielle’s damage outstrips Durthu’s easily over the course of a game, and Durthu’s damage output is far more fragile. Durthu needs support to consistently put damage out as the game progresses, so there is an added cost at keeping him effective, at the very least he requires an 80pt supporting spellcaster to keep his health topped up so he can consistently swing for the sweet sweet 6 damage. That means to get the best use from him, his cost of use is really more like 380. Which only really buys you the ability to cast and unbind 1 spell, and an extra 5 wounds (which will likely not come into play). That means the actual cost to play Alarielle vs Durthu is only 160 pts. So what does that extra 160 pts buy you? 2d6 healing to herself every hero phase, D3 healing to everything within 30”, 2 extra spells, impact hits with retreat and charge (so you can user it every charge phase), a shooting attack that isn’t locked into whatever combat your fighting (thanks to retreat and shoot) plus an essentially suped-up impaling talon, fly, and a spell that is basically verdant blessing and arcane bolt all rolled into one. Now is that worth 160pts? I’d say so. If there was a 160pt hero that could do all that you’d be damn sure to take him in every list you wrote. But if you don’t think so how much more than Durthu + a support caster should she cost? 150? 100? Should she literally cost the same as Durthu despite the fact that she puts out more damage, is more survivable, and basically gets a mini Verdurous Harmony bubble every turn for free? That is true about literally every single unit in our battletome. It is also true for nearly every single unit in the game except Morathi. Enough weight of fire will remove anything from the board in one turn. Even with a wound/mortal wound shrug. This is why I think the real problem is, Sylvaneth don’t play like any other faction in the game. We don’t go toe to toe in casting, close combat, shooting or summoning with any other army and win. We can’t out-shoot KO and we cant out magic Tzneetch. Comparisons like “she won’t survive close combat with Morathi because she has no mortal shrug” is poor comparison, because we really shouldn’t be fighting Morathi with her, and sure as F not one-on-one. But when you think about it, no unit in out codex can really go toe to toe with the equivalent from every other codex. That why we dont fight one on one. We fight 3 on 1. Because we can move units around the board better than any other faction and after destroying one unit we can teleport across the board and do it again. Alarielle will be awesome at guerilla warfare. Charge into a gap between a unit of hunters and a treelord (which limits the enemy’s ability to pile in and direct a full units worth of attacks at her). Treelord stomps, and you pour all your damage into the unit. If the unit doesnt break, Alarielle retreats over the unit next turn, charges again for double impact hits and prevents the enemy from retreating. Rinse repeat up the line. 16” and fly plus a 7” charge is no joke. As to CP generation, I have a feeling that is being addressed by 3.0. We pretty much know for a fact that mechanic is changing. Alarielle and the Warsong Revenants warscrolls were written with 3.0 in mind, so it here isn’t really any point in putting that as a plus or minus in anybody’s column because Kragnos is like getting a taste of 3.0 before the edition drops.

Well, not exactly. That comparison of 50 sentinels to Alarielle makes a bunch of assumptions that probably wouldn’t ever come together in an actual game. The numbers I ran assumed they are using their 18” profile, not their 30” profile, and it’s a big ask to get 50 sentinels all within 18” all at the same time, get all their spells off (for the increased chance of mortal wounds which does most of the damage). Using their 30” profile means you need to add another unit or two to get the same damage output, and then your looking at another 10-20 models and using 980 points to kill 540: not a good trade off. Also the problem here is target saturation and our healing abilities. This is why you need 50 sentinels to kill Alarielle, because you have to do it in one turn (double turn excluded) if you don’t, then she heals in her hero phase and she’s within 18” and can charge in her charge phase. Lunineth can’t resurrect models once they been killed and Alarielle is back up to where she was at the start of the game, while the Lumineth player’s damage output is heavily crippled. Even aside from that, ranged models are designed to concentrate fire and wipe single units off the board, because if they don’t, those units will close the gap and slaughter them in CC. Alarielle has 16 wounds, which makes her an ideal target, while a big block of Drayds in a wood have the same save, -1 to hit, and almost double the amount of wounds at 1/2 the price. But again thats why I said that the math shows that to be balanced match up, because if Alarielle gets first turn and manages to land the charge, then she would absolutely wipe out 1-2 units and then the sentinels can’t overcome her healing. It’s true! Thats why you need some level of target saturation. The Lumnineth player may decide to focus fire and take Alarielle off the board in a single round of shooting, but they are drastically less likely to do that if they are staring down 2 groups of hunters and block of dryads (who work out to be roughly the same number of points as Alarielle) who are threatening a charge next turn.

I sat down last night and worked out roughly how many sentinel shots it would take to bring her down using their 18” range profile. Roughly 50. That’s 700 points required to take her down in a single round of shooting. Most of that damage was MW using their improved sun metal ability (using their spell boosting mortal wounds on a 5+) but since max unit size is 20, they would need to successfully cast it 3 times (spread over 3 units) without it being unbound all within 18” of Alarielle. With their long range profile it would probably take another unit of 10 to do the job in one sitting. The Snek ladies would need similar numbers to inflict the same amount of damage. Roughly 30. Less bodies, but actually more costly clocking in at 840 pts What does that tell us? That 700-900 points of shooting models can remove a 540 point model (after summoning) in one round of shooting? That doesn’t seem squishy to me, that seems pretty damn reasonable. And, again, this comes down to generalship. if your opponent drops literally half their points into shooting and you can’t find a place on the board to deploy Alarielle where she wont be immediately targeted, then you need to keep her off the board first turn, and leave only a couple units you wouldn’t mind losing. The new hero is a good bet to deploy at the start (in a WW) thanks to the 4++, -1 to hit (look out sir), hiding in your free WW with a Chalice of Nectar or Luneth’s Lamp (for the unbind bonus) to prevent them from doing MW on a 5+. Just because a model can’t take on literally twice it’s points and survive doesn’t mean it’s underpowered; it means it’s balanced. So you’re suggesting that if she had been 140 pts cheaper you wouldn’t have won 16-2? what can you get for 140pts? Not any of the heavy hitters like hunters, a treelord, durthu, drycha or anything like that. You could get 5 t-revs, or 5 spites, 10 dryads or maybe a lower level hero and an endless spell. I hardly think a brachwytch and a spiteswarm hive would have made all that much of a difference. Your opponent couldn’t get a single spell out anyway and had their whole army obliterated by turn 2. I highly doubt Alarielle at 600pts would have tipped the scales back in her favor. I’m not trying to drag your opponent but it really sounds like she made a bunch of mistakes during deployment, and you just rolled over her like a wave. There were probably tactical mistakes made during her turns as well. For example, charging Alarielle up the board while the rest of the army gets slaughtered just isn’t a good plan, esp considering she’s a super-powered support unit with nothing to support (and nothing to support her). Sounds to me like she didn’t know what to do and thought “well the game is pretty much already over, I’ve lost my entire army, let’s see if she can kill anything before I give up.” And again, she only participated in one round of combat out of 4 (since you ended turn 2). And as you say, the rolls were terrible. And again, her being cheaper probably wouldn’t have helped her rolls; nor would it have stopped you from face-rolling her all over the board. How experienced is she with the army? Is she a frequent opponent for you? How does she usually do?

So, let me get this straight. You captured 2 out of her 4 objectives in the first turn. She didn’t try to screen you out? All she needed to do was keep you from getting with 6” of it. Then in second round you burned 3 objectives. So you captured another objective in her territory in your second turn and then immediately burned all three of them at the end of your turn. So she wasn’t able to keep you 6” away from the next objective OR take back any of the objectives you took from her OR take any of your objectives from you? So Alarielle just ran up the flank, unsupported, failed her shot, rolled low for her charge damage, fluffed nearly all her attacks. she either failed her cast rolls or had her spell dispelled. She wasn’t able to really push anything off the objective despite what must be your entire army capturing all the objectives on his side of the board. How did she expect to capture the objective with only her? And if both units were guarding two objectives 18” apart, why would she expect to capture both? I mean sure, if she wiped out both units that would have been great, but she can only hold 1 objective at a time. Not to mention basically just begging to get charged in the next turn without support. So she failed her unbind attempt, and then she can’t charge. She didn’t try to move (fly over enemy models)? Cast verdant blessing to summon a single WW and teleport out? She was just stuck? Did she attempt to use her summoning at all? And then, at the bottom of round 2, you wiped out her entire army except for a 1 treelord and Alarielle. It sounds like you just rolled over her. She probably felt like she got hit by a truck. Truth be told thats a tough battleplan (as you said, swingy), that really favors the Slaanesh player (esp if you dont get first turn). But aside from that, I think your victory really came down to generalship. It sounds to me like there were some tactical errors made that were compounded by very bad rolls. I feel like this is a fair assessment of the game, because it sounds like it wasn’t Alarielle that let her down. In fact, if she had performed amazingly, and wiped out everything holding those two objectives in your territory AND was able to claim one of them (because she can only hold one or the other) AND burn the objective, she still would have had no army with which to continue. Also, on top of this, she only participated in one round of combat (since she wasn’t able to charge in the second round) so there was literally one set of rolls by which to gauge her changes. Sometimes nothing goes right, and it happens to the best of us. That being said, I don’t think this match is the result of the warscroll being underpowered or overcosted. Even super-powered units can fail to win us the game if they’re not in the right place at the right time for the right reason.

So how did that combat come about? Did he shoot them with the spear/magic? Did he charge them? Did you charge him? Did you kill her? And how the hell did you win 16-2 on turn 2? what battle plan were you playing?

Dear God why would you put her in solo vs a big hammer unit? Unless you were trying to finish the game early so you could go get a beer. 5 man T-Revs/10 man dryads (once t revs are gone) or horde spells are the answer to hammer units. Chaff, nuke, repeat. Her spear throw from 24” away wouldn’t hurt either.

I think people are underestimating how big these changes are. The changes to our Wyldwood is really significant. It looks like we can set up a single wood and use it as a teleportation node, while using 2-3 wyldwoods allows us to block line of sight a little better (now it looks like the LoS needs to go 3” through a WW. Makes me want to read the measurement wording a little closer). It also looks like the line of sight rules have been changed to being dependent on the models wounds characteristic (looks like 10 to me) rather than their ability to fly. To me, that sounds like it cuts KO shooting in half as only the ships will be able to fire through the LOS blocking woods. The buff to the damage roll is huge as well, the ability to do MW on a 4+ (The base looks like it’s 6+, but it could be 5+, making it 3+) next to a wizard or endless spell means it will be putting out MW at least once per turn, per unit (since it triggers in both our charge phase and the opponents charge phase). Considering how many units are appearing as wizards now (hello lumineth!) that’s a big change and makes our woods scary again. The new caster looks like it fills a nice gap in the army. 4+ shrug is huge especially when it has access to all the Sylvaneth spells, and a bonus to casting and 2 spells (including the healing spell). It’s 3” range means it can easily hide behind a unit of hunters or a dryad line and still attack without opening itself up to retaliation attacks. That means it can heal itself and bring one of it’s hunter bodyguards back. I think Alarielle’s changes are the sleeper hit here. The changes to her healing and giving her access to all the spells is a big boost to her survivability. If your stupid and try fighting a couple of bloodthirsters solo she’s still going to get insta-rekted, but honestly if you play her like that you’re doing it wrong. I had to read the entry twice, but it really looks like it’s set up to be a big monster killer and nothing else. The damage profile is only 4+/3+, (with ways to improve between wargroves, CA’s and items) but it seems you really do roll a dice for every wound that goes through. Then you roll for 6’s before removing the model. This seems to include 1 wounds models. Which means unless you roll 6’s it wont kill 1 wound models. The chance to auto remove big multi-wound models who get in base contact with her is nothing to sneeze at. Put 3 wounds through with it and you have a 50% chance to remove that mega-gargant in a single combat. This looks like a nerf, but most of her damage has been shifted to her other profiles. She got a +1 on her hit/wound for the beetle and the flat damage + healing on her spear with a +1 to hit turns her into a decent ranged damage dealer. Her beetle also does d6 Mw on a 6 when rolling for charge damage. The ability to retreat and charge means you’ll be able to do that every turn. Her spell has gone from a MW on a 4+ to a 3+. Now that we can put 1 wood down instead of the mandatory 3, she stands a really good chance of popping smaller support heroes in the back line and turning them into trees. She did. She’s counted as being the general in addition to whoever else you pick. That and the above seems well worth the 540 point price tag to me. Lets be real: it’s not that hard to roll a 7. Or a 5. And you really should have plenty of other casts to draw out unbinds and whatnot. Lets also not forget that a new edition is dropping pretty soon. The bravery rebuff on the new caster seems like an odd choice, but it might tie into an altered game mechanic. If not, combine with spites for a -3 bravery debuff (-4 with wraithstone) makes her primal terror spell a lot more reliable. A d3MW 10” bubble ain’t nothing to sneeze at, and at a potential -4 makes it a threat even to bravery 10 units; and absolutely terrifying to bravery 6-7 units.

Watched a rumor video earlier this week regarding AoS 3.0 changes. If it is correct, bastions are going from battletome specific battalions (like changehost) to core rulebook generic battalions (1 HERO, 2 BATTLELINE, 1 MONSTER) with more “average” buffs, (RR hits/wounds, ect). Mystic will going back to +1 save and there will be a +1/-1 cap on buffs/debuffs. Also charge reactions are coming back, costing 1 CP with hold (+1 save), Stand and shoot (-1 to hit) and retreat, but only if the charge is declared within 9”. Also CP are changing to be more like OBR relentless discipline points, generated at the start of the turn and then reset at the end. There are supposedly other changes as well, so 3.0 could dramatically change the way armies are composed, and the way they play on the tabletop. The ability to retreat from a charge alone is huge. I’m optimistic for the new Hero. In my experience it only takes a few small changes or new abilities to really change the way an army plays.