Havelocke

One option would be to leave the list as it is. Coming in at 1955 means you'll usually be getting your selected triumph. Taking the 'inspired' triumph to get some extra power when you go in with your Scythes would be a good pick. You could also remove your 10 Dryads and add 10 Spite Revenants instead. That would put you at 2000 exactly. I think that the +5 ward save is a good choice, but I would also consider the Vesperal Gem. If you select Verdurous Harmony as your Treelord Ancient's spell, getting a guaranteed Kurnoth back is very powerful. Picking your general and assigning units to battalions are separate choices. You can choose any hero as your general, even if they are filling a 'sub-commander' slot in a battalion. I would recommend picking the Warsong Revenant, because they cast two spells, and are more likely to trigger the general's command trait. In your list, I'd suggest filling out your Warlord battalion with Drycha, Warsong, Branchwraith, and one unit of Tree Revenants, then putting everything else into a battle regiment.

All of @Arzalyn's advice is very good, so I won't repeat any of it. I do have two additional suggestions, though. First, I would consider swapping out your Sword Kurnoths for a Treelord instead. The Kurnoths definitely hit harder, but your list isn't hurting for damage output. The Treelord offers some utility advantages over the swords, with a free teleport, ranged attack, and a stomp to make enemies fight last. Second, I would strongly recommend the Spiteswarm Hive when considering your endless spells. It offers a powerful charge bonus alongside a very useful armor save buff in a single spell, and it's only 40 points. I think it's one of the best endless spells in the game right now. Looks pretty good overall! I do think you should swap out your Branchwych for an Arch-Revenant, though. To get the fifteen points you need, you could swap the Treelord Ancient for a Warsong Revenant, or you could swap out your Gladewyrm for some Chronomantic Cogs. If you do this, I would also combine a pair of Spite Revenant units into a block of ten, in order to get a larger unit for teleports and the Arch-Rev's command ability. If you do take the Warsong and the Arch Revenant, it leaves you with five points left over. In this list, I would use it to swap out the Gladewyrm for a Horrorghast, in order to force some bad battleshock tests! When it comes to Battalion organization, I don't know that a six-drop list is going to be taking first turn reliably. We'll have to wait and see how the meta shakes out, obviously, but a large number of lists I've seen taken in battle reports so far focus on Warlord + Battle Regiment for a five-drop list. I think we're going to see that be the standard number for armies that care about first turn, while occasionally seeing one-drop lists from armies that want to go all in on an alpha-strike or something.

Absolutely! I'll write it up.

And the one you get just for being Sylvaneth! If you wanted to really go all in, you could even add Acorn of the Ages to get a grand total of 12 woods on the board. I might have to try that, just for fun. It's also worth noting, as @Pennydude pointed out, the 3" apart restriction when placing separate wyldwoods does not apply to woods that are already on the board. That should make it very easy to completely infest a large portion of the board on turn one.

I completely agree with both of you you. I would never use the interpretation I outlined above in one of my own games. As noted in my bold caveat, I don't think it's intended to work that way at all. While I generally try to follow the rules exactly as written, without trying to make assumptions about what the designers intended, this is an instance in which one interpretation of the rules as written went against an overwhelming mountain of contextual evidence to suggest that the ability should work more or less the way it always has. Barring a more explicit change to the way teleports have always worked in multiple GW rules sets, I don't think that my argument has legs outside of semantic debate. I noticed this, too. Nice little perk! While the nerf to Kurnoth hunters hurts quite a bit, it's important to note that save re-rolls were removed more or less across the board, so it's a little less painful when considered in that context. I think the change to the Ancient's command ability was actually a huge buff. The ability to potentially spread a save bonus across our entire army with one command point is hugely valuable, and could make us very resilient against rend when combined with the other sources of save bonuses. While I'm sad that the simplicity of the Kragnos Wyldwood has been replaced, I am very excited about the new wyldwood warscroll. The ability to get 6 to 9 woods down on the first turn is a whole new world compared to where we were before. Monsters only shut down half of the spirit paths, since the woods can still be used as a destination after being smashed, and it does nothing to spirit paths. All in all, I think you should feel pretty good about the changes. I've got my first game of 3.0 scheduled for Friday, and I'm actually very optimistic. We'll see how it goes!

After taking another look at the rules, I think a strong argument can be made that this is legal. Even more than that, I think you could even make a normal move, if you want to, as well. There are two rules that work together to justify this... Core 8.0, Last Sentence - Once you have made a normal move, run or retreated with a unit, you cannot pick it again in that phase. Core FAQ - Q: Some abilities allow a unit to be set up ‘ instead of making a normal move’. Does a unit set up with such an ability count as having moved? A: No, unless the ability specifically states otherwise. As written, this suggests that you may pick a unit and make a teleport instead of moving, and the unit will not have moved. You may then pick the unit a second time and make a normal move or run, as the rules do not stop you from picking a unit twice, only from moving twice. It's important to note that the above is only based on exactly what's written in the rules, without giving consideration to common sense. It seems extremely unlikely to me that this is the way the abilities are intended to function. (As written, this will only work with Spirit Paths and Waypipes. It won't work with Navigate Realmroots or Sinister Ambush, however, because of the first sentence of those abilities states that they take place "at the end of the movement phase". Per the core rules FAQ, this means the ability occurs after all other movement has taken place.)

I'll be playing that way for the time being, as well. It seems to be the prevailing opinion right now, and I think there's a great deal of evidence to suggest that it's what was intended. That said, I still wish they'd clear it up and make things a bit more explicit. The restrictions in the GHB do not mention anything about 'before the battle begins' and that can only be inferred by the other rules around it in the book. Core rule 23.0 dies not provide a definitive definition of what faction terrain is, as contrasted with rules like 19.0, 20.0, and 21.0. Either way you try to argue it, you're relying on inferences. I've emailed GW asking for clarification, though I don't necessarily expect a fast response. Good catch! In the English version of the FAQ, the exact wording is: "Only Sylvaneth armies can include this faction terrain feature." I think the word include here is important, because it's the same language that is used in Core 1.4.1, which allows you to include one piece of faction terrain in your army. This rule, as I read it, stops non-sylvaneth armies from including an awakened wyldwood on their army roster. It doesn't interfere with the Ancient's ability because it's being added, rather than included. This language distinction is similarly used for summoned units such as the Dryads from Roused to Wrath, and is also in Core 3.1.

Ha! Amazing that we're still debating this in 2021.

You left out half of that rule, though. I don't think this is cut and dried. 17.0.2 - Faction terrain is a special type of terrain that is taken as part of an army. A faction terrain feature has a faction terrain warscroll (see 23.0), which will tell you how it is set up and what additional rules apply to it. The second sentence even has the rules bold text, referring to an important game term. The question here is what the exact definition of a 'faction terrain feature' is, since the GHB rules apply to the placement of all faction terrain features. I believe, based on the presence of the rules bold text in the second sentence, that the definition of faction terrain is terrain which has a faction warscroll, whether it is summoned or included on your army roster. I think the first sentence is better worded as a definition, though, so I think that @Mirage8112's argument also holds weight. The spell already existed, though, so it's not like they wrote it from scratch. Plus, there are all kinds of rules that only apply to matched play. You could make the same argument and say 'why would they give the person who deployed first +1 to priority' if they were just going to change it in the matched play rules?' The matched play rules are designed to create a slightly different gameplay experience.

That's a tough one. Durthu can still teleport through smashed wyldwoods, but I'd give the edge to Drycha due being a wizard in Gnarlroot, and wanting to make one additional change to the list, below. I would also look for a way to include the Spiteswarm hive in your list. You need to clear 35 points to do so, and you could combine some of the following changes: Change Dryads to Tree Rev's: -15 points Change Dryads to Spite Rev's: -25 points Change Durthu to Drycha: -10 points Change Sword Kurnoths to Scythe Kurnoths: -10 points I haven't seen the GHB 2021 wording yet, but the GHB 2020 rules said that they were in addition to battletome restrictions, which I think would preclude the battletome rules from overruling them. GHB 2020 also specifically includes terrain set up due to allegiance abilities or warscrolls after the battle begins. If 2021 mirrors the language from 2020, I think we'll be stuck following both sets of restrictions, as we were previously.

A little of both. Saves are capped at +1, but that's only after you total all the modifiers. Essentially, multiple save buffs after the first work as a buffer against rend. So if you have +1 to save from three sources, and you're facing an enemy with -1 rend, you combine those for a net +2 modifier, which is then capped at +1.

This is the way I read it as well. There is nothing to suggest that you can set up fewer than three trees. This is kind of a bummer in terms of logistics and cost, as it means you will be limited to one summon for every set of three you own. The BR:Kragnos warscroll was a big money and time saver for new collectors of the army. Luckily, I don't think it will matter a ton on the table. Since there's no limit on how far away the trees can be from each other, I think you should be able to dump the extra tree in an irrelevant location almost every single time.

Gotcha! I was just confused by you describing it as a 0+ save, then. Nevermind me, then!

Rule 13.3 describes the limits on modifications during an attack sequence, including a maximum of +1 bonus to any save roll. You are correct that Finest Hour, Mystic Shield, and All-Out Defense can be stacked, however they will only ever improve a save by +1, with the other two only cancelling out incoming rend.

I think the changes @Arzalyn suggested are good, as well. Here are a couple suggestions if you really want to lean into the shooting build: First, you could consider finding room for the new Soulsnare Shackles. I think they would be an excellent addition to your list for area control and to slow down your opponent. You could do this by directly replacing the Spiteswarm Hive, since the only units that care about the charge buff are Durthu and the summoned Dryads, who probably want to be objective capping instead of charging anyways. You could also replace a unit of Tree Revenants instead, which would leave you with 45 unused points. Those could be used on chronomantic cogs, for more spell power, or on prismatic palisade, to further shield your gun line. Second, you could consider replacing Durthu with Drycha. She's doesn't have the same melee burst potential, but she's still a huge threat, and can better support your army in the 'early game' phase you described. If you go with the cogs route described above, you're also getting a third wizard into your list, for a potential 8 casts. - Durthu - Tree Revenants + Drycha + Soulsnare Shackles + Chronomantic Cogs ------- 1990 These changes are kinda meme-y, but it would let you lean into the playstyle.

Thanks for the observations! Drycha and Spites are my favorite Sylvaneth units, so I love that they performed well for you. What glade you were using for this game? I'm definitely not trying to start Alarielle debates again, but I think you mentioned before that at least one of those games was in second edition. Have you had the chance to try her in third yet? I'm still holding out hope that the defensive bonuses given to Alarielle in third edition (through heroic actions, rampages, and smaller units) will give her the extra bit of survivability she needs to be useful.

The only information I have is gleaned from his Twitter account, where he hypothesizes about what the upcoming FAQ's will say when discussing the Drycha issue. So just a bit of inference there. Warsong bomb is more or less what you described, now that balewind is dead. The other big addition you can make is putting chalice of nectar on the Warsong for more damage. Umbral Spell portal is also great for Alarielle lists, too, since it makes it easier for her to hit critical targets with metamorphosis.

Another indirect buff to Tree Revenants that I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that they can use command abilities after teleporting more often, since the Scion can issue commands now. This was often not the case in the last edition, when they had to jump far away from heroes.

It's worth noting that these playtesters were working without an FAQ's, just the same as we are. Looking at his replies, it sound like he made the same argument that's been made here about Artefacts and Traits being the only enhancements that are 'given' and was shot down. We'll see what the eventual FAQ says! They're awesome! I've got a good feeling that endless spells are gonna be used a lot in 3e. The spiteswarm hive is still amazing, and I really want to try out the Gladewyrm with the new predatory rules. On top of that, Soulsnare shackles look good, Chronomantic Cogs are always good, and Umbral Spellportal has potential for a Warsong bomb. Finally, the Skullroot and Horrorghast are strong considerations if you want to try to do a bravery debuff thing. Heck, with the changes to wyldwoods, the Skullroot might just be good on its own.

They can teleport anywhere on the board more than 9" from the enemy. Every turn. There are very few units in the game with that kind of mobility. This makes them very useful for jumping onto objectives that would otherwise be hard to reach, and it also forces the opponent to play around that ability be screening their backfield and making sure their home objective is well defended. While they aren't super great in combat, their re-roll abilities in the charge and combat phases make their limited output rather reliable. If they're given a good target of opportunity, such as a poorly defended support hero, they're pretty good at taking advantage of that. Finally, their 6" pile in move gives some tactical flexibility that can be exploited. This is limited by the new coherency rules, but pile in moves also got more flexible. I haven't personally assessed yet exactly how valuable this will be in the new edition, but it's certainly worth considering.

Love the insights, @Ratatatata! Thanks for sharing. I'm also curious to know which glade(s) you ran for your games.

Seems to me that the points adjustments were a combination of formulaic increases and also targeted nerfs/buffs, which is why we saw such a big increase for Kurnoth Hunters. They were likely paying 5-10 points for their new model count, and also took a targeted nerf of 20-30 points, in my view. Not that I'm saying Kurnoth Hunters were overpowered. They weren't, but they were at the core of virtually every competitive Sylvaneth list, so I'm not surprised they were targeted by GW to address the internal balance of the army. That said, I still don't have a good explanation for why the Scythe Kurnoths got off easier than the other options.

Well said. You've convinced me. I still think that the ability should be FAQ'd for clarity, but I can see now that your interpretation of the rule is internally consistent. Thanks for taking the time to debate it with me!

Oh! I didn't realize he was just talking about the WarCom articles. Cool cool.

Also, as an aside. I've notice you mention answers from the playtesters a couple times. Could you point me towards their Q&A, or panel, or whatever? I'd be curious to check it out.