Doko
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Posts posted by Doko
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14 minutes ago, Beliman said:
Yep. Grundstock Thunderers are exactly that. And remember that they were nerfed from 150 to 165p!
But the point is that our synergies are enough to make them "good".That's why I think that maths don't show the whole picture. Maybe 5 thunderers are not good enough, but 15 thunderers+Admiral+Khemist+Ironclad (1220p) is a good start point. Maybe people see all fo this like a tax, a bill to pay. But what I see...
Maybe Cities of Sigmar are exactly the same. A "Castelite Formation" of 600 to 800p, but that's just the core, and there are still a lot of points to finish the list.
i know your point,but that is a bad balance of gw,the unit dont have to have a cost balanced with full buffs.the cost must be unbufed.
then put the points to the units doing the buffs, per example in the kharadron example the thunderers must cost less but then maybe if the combo is very good them nerf in points the irondlad,and the two heroes
so if the combo is balanced and is 1220 points,reduce the thunderers to 110 and add that 150 points betwen the ironclad and the heroes,some as ironclad +80 and each hero +30 so the combo cost the same but the unit isnt overcosted used outside of the combo
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the cannon isnt SO BAD, if both units are unbuffed the damage is better the cannon vs save 2,the same vs save 4 and worse vs save 5 or 6. but in general i would say the cannon is worse unbuffed and worse even the gap is huge if buffed
also cannon dont take leadership check and dont loose damage untill killed while fusilers loose damage with each model killed.
in general the fusilers are best buffed and i would say unbuffed also,but unbufed the gap is small.
i would say cannon cost is 120 and fusilers 130
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3 hours ago, Beliman said:
@Doko, thx for the answer!
What I don't understand is why Thunderers should cost 150p (or more) and Fusiliers need to be 130p. Even if Thunderers have a better hit and save (3+ vs 4+), they have less dmg and less range than Fussiliers (18" vs 24"):
They both have their own abilities: One has Supressing Fire, but Fusiliers have Fortified Position. But remember that Supressing Fire is behind a 2D6 moral check and Fortified Position don't need any roll to trigger.
Btw, I'm not saying that Thunderers are bad (they are the MVPs of KOs), and they needed that points nerf in the last GHB. But their warscroll is not that stong, the whole problem was because KOs synergies are so good that even costing 165p, they continued to be used in tournaments.
Maybe Fusiliers are exactly the same for Cities of Sigmar.
hnnnn i did bad my numbers sorry,i did it with 10 models,i forgot that thunderers are only 5 models. yup they are pretty bad. i would say if im reading it well with aetheshot rifle the profile is 2attacks 3 hit 4 wound 1 rend 1 damage? that profile is only 3'3 rend 1 damage that is very low. i would say his cost is around 110 if i am not reading wrong the scroll because it seems very low damage
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9 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
You‘d invest a lot if points to make an already expensive unit perform like it should without any buffs. Idk too many eggs in one basket if you‘d ask me.
If Fusiliers couldn’t be reinforced I‘d argue they‘re a 100-120 pts unit.
One could also say that Fusiliers are how shooting should be, the rest of AoS‘s shooting is simply, utterly out of whack.
Edit: Concerning our buying choices this means that playing 10 on their own is senseless, one‘d need at least 20 per unit I‘d wager (judging by GW’s pricing policy that‘s 100€/unit - that’s rough, is that ~ 160-180$ ?)
yup as i said many times,the fussilers must cost around 120 points but people are too much hyped with new humans.
but this unit have some uses in my theorycrafting:
one big unit of 30+unit of 10+metal mage giving the +1hit and wound to the unit of 30 and the mortals with 6 to both units.
the msu unit of 10 have low damage,his use is together the supresive fire order give attack last to a enemy unit very reliably
the unit of 30 with all these buffs can dish out 10 mortals at 32" that is pretty good and also do these 10 mortals with defensive fire doing them hard to be chargued while being also veeeeery hards at shotting(only ranged with mortals wounds delete us as sentinels or dok snakes)
so even if i agree that fusiliers are overcosted,they are a key and the core of every one of my list.
that attack last to enemy is needed with my hammerers,and we need have that shooting damage to do some tactics
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36 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:
AND the Corsairs come with the Anvilguard box, and I want at least 2 of the sea monsters anyways
yup,i bougth one of these box but i got also a single box of pirates because i dont like the style of the kharybdys,the heads and the head on the chest is horrible to me,so i only need one hydra that i love(but it would be better with other pose with the 4 feets on the ground)
by the way if you havent buy these anvingard boxes yet get hurry because gw have deleted it allready of their website
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24 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:
the unit is overcosted and overhyped
yup mathammer says the same,this unit cost is 130. its overhyped because with +1hit+1wound and mortals with 6 his damage is good,but even with these buffs they are inferior to other shootings units buffed as dok snakes shooting twice etc
the time gonna shows us that all this overhype for humans units is false and in competitive the elfs gonna be the good option,but even then we need bring the humans to can do battle tactics and orders even if they are overcosted
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6 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
have nearly the same offensive profile as blissbarbs and reavers for around the same points
sorry but i disagree.
irondrakes 4'4 damage at 15" for 160 or if dont move 8'8
blisbarbs 8'8 damage allways for 160 and can run an charge.
so it isnt even close to same profile,blisbarbs have the double shooting for same cost.
in practice:
irondrakes 8'8 damage at 15" treathrange or 4'4 at 19" threathrange
for same cost
blisbarbs 8'8 damage with treathrange of 30"+
it is really imposible than someone see these stats and think both units cost the same.
and this is if we ignore as dwarfs get almost 0 buffs while blisbarbs get many easy buffs as ward5,+1 rend etc
i really think irondrakes for 160 need have 2 shoots baseline and delete the cant move skill to be balanced to blisbarbs/reavers,with this chance dwarfs get less range and move for same damage but better save,its a good balance.
rigth now for same cost dwarfs do half damage with half range and isnumbalanced
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36 minutes ago, Beliman said:
No irony or sarcasm. Kharadrons are a heavy shooting army with crazy polarized opinions. Knowing what people think about thunderers is a first step in the right direction.
i dont have the kharadrons book,if the scroll that i found on wahapedia is actual and only with aethershot rifle(because it is a chaos the others weapons haha).
have 10w save3 and 6'6 rend1 damage, the cost must be around 150 but his skill of supressive fire for a -1 hit is pretty cool but its his special skill as reavers +1 hit or blisbarbs run and shoot
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4 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Irondrakes are still on 3+/3+/-1/1. The runelord still has a +1 rend prayer
again you havent read well the book,excuse me for saying you that but is the true.
runelord as every dwarf on this book got nerfed,lost the +2 to dispell,lost the ward prayer,the rend was nerfed from +2 to 4+ and worse now its only for melle and not work with shootings
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3 minutes ago, Ejecutor said:
You are forgetting the whole point of the book, heroes shouting command orders to them and that kind of stuff.
im not forgetting it,but that orders are in place of other passives that this book have 0.
it is as if i add the ward5 to blisbarbs that they gonna get with his passive.
or the buffs,its true that fussilers can get mortals on 6 and make the unit so much better,but that must be balanced around the cost of the hero that give this buff and not the unit
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yes that unit is ejecutioners.
hammerers are great because they dont need any buff,only 150 points for 17'5 rend2 damage is crazy,dont need rend3 because rend2 is enough
the sorceress is s tier because in this meta a mage that have +2 cast or even +4(settler gain and the warlord trait of elfs) and isnt unique so can cast the primal spells is CRAZY
the luminark would be b tier if the ward would works with all and not only humans,by the way the best use of the luminark is getting it behind your screen and do defensive fire with his attack that is a shoothing attack and not skill as the hurricanum
corsairs are s tier with double weapons, only 90 points for 30 attacks is godly,also they are the best unit to buff with the hoaxfrost spell and the ignore save of elfs. a unit of 20 corsairs with the +1 attack of the hero,with the ignore saves can kill almost any unit or heroe on the game. they are allways equiped with two swords,the damage is the same than with shooty but the hoarfrost and ignore save are only for melle.
trust me this corsair bomb is the best combo of the book and only 20 corsairs do around 35 mortals wounds(ignore save) that can kill even archaon
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10 minutes ago, Beliman said:
I'm curious about this. Btw, using the same formula, can you do the numbers for Grundstock Thunderers?
the median are blisbarb archers and idoneths reavers that make 8'8 rend 1 damage for 160/170
the fussilers make only 5 rend 1 damage,so if we compare to thosw units the cost of fussilers must be 30% less than those.
i havent read thunderers but if you really want know and isnt only irony i can do the math for his real cost
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48 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Ironbreakers are 130 for 10 wounds with a 3+/4++, sure they only get the 4+ ward half the combat phases, but they're also 40 points cheaper than phoenix guard with a better armor save.
Irondrakes are 10 points cheaper than they used to be, and only lost 1" range, and they saw plenty of playin specif these units.
yes ironbreaker can have 3/4 but you need pay the heroe tax and isnt something on the scroll,that ward 4 is costed paying for the hero and not paying for the unit.
also it is only for melle and only in enemy turn and also attack last,is imposible compare to a phoenyx guard that dont need hero,work against shooting or magic and also every combat phase, really is imposible compare it,dwarf ward is a 3/10 against all time wards.
oh also when we count the points of a unit,the damage matters also,ironbreakers are useless with 6'6 no rend damage when phoenyx guard have 8'8 rend 1 damage.
in fact inside of this book we have two tanks units and is easy to see how bad and overcosted are the ironbreakers:
ironbreaker 130 points 10w save3(ward4 only for enemy combat turns and paying the tax of a hero) move4 and 6'6 no rend damage
black guard 140 points 10 w save4 and ward4 in every phase for no extra cost,move 6 and 8'8 rend 1 damage.
so inside same book for only 10 points black guard have 50% more move,50% more damage and with rend,also ward every moment and not only in enemy combat phase.can you tell me that ironbreakers dont need a reduction in cost seeing this?
also even outside of the book,chaos warriors for 200 points have 20 w with save 3 that would be the same than 10 w with ward4.so if we compare ironbreakers to chaos warriors the cost of dwarfs must be 100 and that would be with the ward4 in every phase.......
shieldwall order must be changed to only a ward5 with no restrictions,rigth now is pretty useless
now speaking about irondrakes and because they have been deleted and are overcosted by 40 points. they changed his skill and now you cant use special setups as bridges or deep strike to count as dont move.
oh also lost +1 save vs shooting,also lost the +1 wound from longbeards and the +1 rend of runelords.
so yes a unit that in old book could enter with living city and do full damage now only makes 4'4 rend1 damage for 160 when blisbarbs archers for same cost make 8'8 rend 1
oh and before with the bridge+longbeards+runelord they could have 20 attack 2hit2wound2rend damage1 and teleport and do full damage.
now read better his scroll and tell me again that irondrakes onky lost 1" range lol
irondrakes have been deleted and they are the worst unit in entire book and need a new scroll with two shoots baseline and delete the stupid rule that cant move
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oh the order inside of each tier is random,i didnt think about get them in order inside each tier also.
hnnnn the warcry warband if i must be honest im biased as zelestra,its personal,but to me they are UGLY miniatures so i only did a fast reading and put them there because usually hybryd units with shooting and melle are bad.
you need spend double comand points to get the same damage than only melle or shooting units(you need all out attack on shooting AND melle).
so this warcry band in paper have very good damage per points but being melle\shooting i dont like it.
but b tier isnt bad,b tier is balanced.
if you want i could do a better maths numbers about this unit but in short have stats of A tier but i put it in B due to be hybrid
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48 minutes ago, Mutton said:
And if we're going to talk about under costed Cities units...that Alchemist Warforger is at least 50 points too cheap
we also can speak about over costed units that are more than the undercosted by the way.
irondrakes 40 over
gyrocopter 50 over
gyrobomber 30 over
ironbreaker 30 over
runelord 20 over
dwarfking 30 over
dreadspears/bleaksword 20 over
darkshards 30 over
black dragon/gryfon melle 80 over
new kimera 100 over
steelhelms 20 over
new artyllery 30 over
humans gobapaloza 50 over
marshal on foot 20 over
fusilier on ogre 70 over
fusiliers 30 over
while the undercosted units are:
ejecutioners 30 under
hammerers 30 under
metal mage 30 under
sorcerer 30 under
pirates acourges 20 under
so the list of undercosted units is way smaller than the overcosted
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13 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
The average damage of the pontifex (d3 mortals on a 3+) is 1.33
yes but now add that also must get a 2+ and then your 1,3 is 1
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yes i really like it in paper,i dont know how factible is in reality with that huge base.
for sure i think they are very good and yes this guy makes many of these vids only for get views and get money even if he havent even read the scrolls and he is wrong
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sentinels were hates because they kill our heroes each turn,but this model need 5 turns to kill the hero.
zelestra 150 for 1 mortal and cant be spamed because it is unique
sentinels 160 for 3 mortals that can be spamed so we can bring 20 or 30 sentinels to do 6/9 mortals and kill one or two heroes each turn
i think numbers speak by itself.
if zelestra were a prayer with 1+ to cast i could agree with the people,but a 3+ and then other 2+ makes her horrible,time gonna tell who was rigth but i think she wont be used and if she is used is only for the ward
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18 minutes ago, Beliman said:
You don't get it. Two weeks ago, I lost one of my heroes to another Navigator. The other player ended that Hero Phase with "sorry, it sucks".
I had the same experience being the one using the Navigator with exactly the same ending.
Maths don't tell you that, you need to play the game to know that they are not fun.
also i could argue that get situations of very bad luck is fun also.
what are the chances of kroak getting a misscast,getting 3 mortals wounds to himself and failling the check and then killing himself? pretty sure are around 1% but that happened in my club and was hilarious and everyone in my club remember that as something epic and fun,but nobody remember when kroak only did his job and didnt faill his cast.
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im sorry if get your models killed isnt fun then dont play this game lol
i dont know what is the point,so easy as a model that only makes 1 mortal wound each turn,now i wont say if that is good or bad but soulbligth spell do 1 mortal to every unit and not only mages(even the maths say that is 1,3 mortals with the 9+) and i havent seen nobody cry about that spell.
is npe because enemy dont interact? i also i wont opine but the game have MULTIPLES armys heroes or units skills that make damage and cant interact the enemy so....
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1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:
With this prayer there is no avoiding it, and most of the targets have 5 wounds
i dont wanna sound hard,but math dont lie never.
this model cost 150 and only makes 1 mortal to each mage/priest of median.
so gonna need full 5 turns(entire one game) to kill them.
yes i know many persons gonna cry when this hero kill his heroes in two turns doing 3 mortals each turn,but then in maths that gonna means that the same number of people gonna get 0 damage of this skill for two turns and do nothing.
dont get me wrong,this hero is good,but she is very far of being overpower or undercosted because his skills are too much random and she is named.
even inside of cities,a hurricanum can kill heroes more reliably and fast than this hero.
of course againsth lumimeths or tzenth this hero can be better,but against the normal 1/2 mages of every army this hero isnt good
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i dont like this miniature style and even being a cos player i wont buy it,so i dont care if they nerf or even remove this skill.
but as it isnt fun this skill and dont have interaction?if you says this about this skill then you can say the same about the 90% of others damage skill of every book.
as dwarf player i could say the same about every overpower spell that kill my units without interaction by me,as the new spell that makes 4d6 mortals and insta kill my magmadroths without save or interaction so every mage is broken because kill my army without interaction?
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32 minutes ago, Boingrot Bouncer said:
Is it just me that feels like the Pontifex Zenestra ability to do D3 mortal wounds to every enemy wizard and priest feels a bit to much.
Sure, it's a prayer that goes of on 3+ and then 2+ but a lot of mages are 5-6 wounds meaning it could really give a lot of NPE when you can do absolutely nothing to prevent it except heroically recover one hero.
With a double turn it would not be that unlikely to go off twice and kill of a lot of the 5-6 wounds hero wizards...
nop,if you do maths,this hability do a median of 1 mortal wound to each hero,so you would need 5 turns to kill a basic 5 wounds hero.
this skill sound great in paper and many people are crying is broken,but in practice it is useless and wont get used,this mini gonna be played(if it gonna be played that i dont think so) for the ward5 to the humans and not for this skill.
in short 150 points for only 1 mortal wound to each mage/priest is pretty bad
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seeing the tierlist of honestwargame youtuve channel i used his plates to my PERSONAL tierlist only for competitive(this tier is only about the eficiency for cost of each unit).
what about your tier?is allways fun see tierlist(as gacha games fan XD)
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AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion
in Cities of Sigmar
Posted
sorry but im not agree,its the oposite. usually shooting units are overcosted and rigth now the meta only have one shooting army in the top that is slanesh and that is because slanesh is veeeeeeery undercosted the blisbarbs archers and the cavalry.
the meta is:
top:vampires and bonereapers, vampires due to magic and control of the table.bonereapers due to antimagic and undercosted units
secont tier: seraphons, due kroack is broken and umdercosted by 100 points,also the combo of incarnate with new spell to make him wild together seraphom is broken
third tier: demons in general, slanesh because all is undercosted in detaill the blisbarbs must cost 180/200 and not the joke 160 and the cavalry that put -1 save need other 20/30 increase.
khorne due to be antimagic and in general undercosted units.
tzenth due to the combo of incarnate
nurgle due to control of the table.
so shooting isnt powerfull now when in the meta only slanesh use shooting and everyone knows that blisbarbs are undercosted.
in fact every shooting unit would need a reduction of 20% in points to be more balanced against melle units in paper