AngryPanda
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Posts posted by AngryPanda
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13 hours ago, Enoby said:
While pricey, I think it would work as a defensive army; I've seen people have luck with units of 15 chaos warriors around Glutos, and their only complaint was that they didn't do any damage. Painbringers would at least get around that problem as they do decent enough damage - about twice that of chaos warriors.
I think Glutos would also work very well in this list, not only being able to cast the lifeswarm, but also gemnids and his own debuffs to ensure the enemy is even weaker.
You'd probably also want a hammer, so either Twinsouls or preferably Slickblade Seekers (I like Twinsouls but Slickblades are more adaptable).
After my game, I've found a varied list works surprisingly well; there was no massive stand out unit (besides Glutos maybe) but everything performed about as expected, which made them very fun to use and able to make up for one another's weaknesses. They are pricey so that may hurt lists for a little while, but I reckon some of our units will come down sooner rather than later if enough people write into them.
I've also been working on my own Slickblades - one of the hardest to build kits ever.
Nice conversions! Love the windigo/wild rider inspiration.
I did some tinkering, and after cutting some corners I was able to develop something that might work. It isn’t competitive, but I feel it would be fun to play and experiment with.
Invaders-
Lurid Haze- 2/3 command points a turn
2000/2000
Heroes:
Battalion: Supreme Symbarites
Sigvald
General #1
Lord of Pain
- General #2
- Rod of Misrule
Herald of Slaanesh
General #3
+1 wound artifact
Reroll run rolls trait
Shardspeaker
Shardspeaker
Troops:
Blissbarb Archers x11
Painbringers x 10
Painbringers x 10
Calvary:
Slickblades x 5
Endless Spells:
emerald swarm
Summons:
Fiends
Daemonettes
Keeper of Secret
Infernal Rapturess
The strategy behind the list is that Sigvald and the Slickblades infiltrate with the Lurid Haze battle trait as a distraction, to hit hard from the corner of the board, or target units that may be a concern. Even if the Slickblades cannot infiltrate, they’re fast enough to reach a decent flank. One group of painbringers moves with the Lord of Pain and a Shardspeaker; the other painbringers move with the Herald of Slaanesh and the other Shardspeaker. The blissbarbs sit on an objective while generating depravity, and the emerald swarm drops behind my painbringer blobs to bring back the dead and provide general healing.
The command points provide battleshock security, +1 saves, and rerolls if needed. I also have a lot of spellcasters, and can potentially do well with casting. I feel that with the buffs that are provided by the heroes, in addition to the healing and reroll saves, I can have a nice hammer/anvil that sits on the main frontlines; the herald also has the cheeky ability which prevents pile ins. This also doesn’t include the units generated from summoning as well. I really want to experiment with this list against Ogors, Ossiarchs, or another decent melee-oriented army.
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What do you guys think of pairing a unit or two of painbringers with the emerald swarm endless spell? In lurid haze we can give them a +1 save, bringing them to a +3 rerollable in the combat phase. Being only two wounds, they are also revived on a +3. If I’m gonna run a Slaanesh list, I’m planning on trying this out as I like the models a lot; however it’s a bit difficult to fit in with the point costs.
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2 hours ago, Yoid said:
Im planing to write that some time later, the book is too recent, like 1-2-3 weeks after the official release.
Im still making my mind about what im gonna say, but i will try to sumarize the matters i want to bring.-Communicating my opinion in points being too high except for Blissbarb Seekers and Slickblades Seekers, suggesting a point reduction of 20 to 40 points all around the roster.
-Suggesting that a day is reserved for the team that did DoK battletome to review HoS tome, an the team that did HoS tome to review DoK tome. Then making an online videocall meeting bewteen both in order to adjust the points of the tomes accordingly in an externally balanced way.
-Sugesting that if the points cannot be fixed in a better way until the next General Handbook, it may be a good idea to at least reduce everything in the army 10 to 20pts in the errata as a premptive move to not leave the players in a limbo.
-Leaving my opinion about Slaangor Fienbloods being a problem that should not be fixed by reducing their points because that goes agaisnt their power fantasy. But suggesting that simply writing in the errata that their Razor-sharp Claw(s) got a damage value of 2 instead of 1 can probably fix the unit in an extremely easy way.
That is it from the top of my head.I’m on the same boat: I am going to do more play testing over the next couple of weeks to report more reputable data. I feel that with some appropriate point adjustments, everything will be balanced pretty decently and we will have a fun battletome that would allow for multiple play styles. As of now though, the painbringers and twinsouls are just too expensive. They may be ok for casual or narrative play, but are overpriced for anything competitive. The Lord of Pain and Shardspeaker may need some adjustment as well, but there is more leeway with the shardspeaker because his buff and debuff applies to anything, and can be added to any chaos army (besides Khorne lol).
Fiendbloods are the biggest miss, and the additional damage on their weapon profiles will do a lot to alleviate them; but even with 2 and 3 damage they’re still only a +5 save unit that hits on 4s. Though the 3 wounds and high movement speed will help their survivability and threat range, it’s hard to gauge how efficient they will be without additional testing after the assumed changes are made. I am also hoping that within the campaign books that are being released, that they add a battalion that supports fiendbloods. I have a funny suspicion that they were rushed or changed last minute, and that’s why they were released so poorly, as every new unit released I’ve seen has always been associated to a battalion.
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24 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
Are 15 Chaos Warriors actually better than 10 Painbringers?
For the purpose of holding objectives, yes, as they’re far more resilient and cheaper. A squad of 15 chaos warriors with shields protects you against mortal wounds, allows to reroll saves so long as there’s at least ten models in the unit, and is 30 wounds. A unit of 10 painbringers is more expensive despite being 20 wounds, and although they are allow to reroll saves in any sized unit, they do not have the ability to protect themselves against mortal wounds.
In terms of damage output, painbringers come ahead by a decent bit. Their weapons have rend, and they cause mortal wounds on a 6 to hit, which also generates an additional attack. They’re also a bit faster, with a movement of 6 inches.
However, for what you’re purchasing they’re very expensive. When it comes to Slaanesh, and AoS in general, competitively it’s best to invest points into units that will be causing damage. Chaos warriors are cheap enough to be taken in bulk to anchor objects, giving you the option to purchase heavy hitters like a KoS, a unit of fiends, or Glutos and Sigvald.
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1 hour ago, Enoby said:
Finished the Lord of Pain now
That looks fantastic, love the Windigo/Tribal head. I saw your other conversion with the Painbringers, and those are great as well; the Wild Rider heads fit so well with the rest of the model. I can’t find any good bits sites with the parts to do some basic head swaps, as it seems they are always out of stock.
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I’m pretty happy to see that people are having success with the new battletome. It seems to me that the way to go, competitively, is to take a small number of ranged/anvil battleline units that can hold objectives, while focusing the majority of points towards heroes or damage dealers/utility like fiends or Slickblades.
So far, I’ve seen that iron golems and chaos warriors are great choices, as well as minimum-sized units of Blissbarb archers; both can sit on objectives while the rest of the army moves up to cause havoc. KoS are still the stars of the show, but our new mortal special characters are also pretty great as well. Slickblades can also run around and do some decent damage as harassment-based units.
However, I haven’t heard any positive news about painbringers, twinsouls, and Fiendbloods. I’ve read that twinsouls had some positive results against DoK, and I can imagine them doing well against other low armored armies such as Ogors or Goblins; however I still feel these units are a bit overpriced for what they bring; especially considering that we can get anvil units that are far cheaper and more efficient at holding objectives.
I’m on the fence about Lords of Pain and shardspeakers. I believe that because the mortal foot sloggers are generally not being taken, I haven’t seen them in lists as much; I’m hoping to see more play testing with these guys in addition to the new mortals.
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Has anyone play tested the Painbringers? How have they performed? I’m interested to see how they fair against armored units such as blobs of chaos warriors, ardboyz, or stormcasts; other experiences with using them are also welcome 👍
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1 hour ago, Poryague said:
Looking at both the dok and HoS. The difference is insane. DoK is just win. The disparity here makes no sense you can look at both books and it's like they didn't bother looking at the other books. This disparity happens way to often.
From what I’ve gathered, there are multiple game design teams at GW that handle the releases for AoS, 40k, and the various specialist games. From videos I’ve seen online reviewing the new HoS, the consensus is that we got the short end of the stick because our release was developed by a team that lowballs power levels. Ultimately, it’s a failure to communicate between the writers, play testers, and overall staff.
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2 hours ago, Enoby said:
Just curious, on your first look, what points would you be happy with for the mortals?
Personally, I like Sigvald and Glutos a lot. For their points, they’re solid characters and fun to use. Sigvald is a beautiful model to field, and can earn back his value depending if he is positioned correctly, as he only has a 6 inch movement and 6 wounds. A hard hitting assassin with no auras and buffs, he can be a decent hammer or scalpel depending on what you want removed.
Glutos is an all-rounder that can hit hard, cast spells, and also provide synergy for the rest of your army. For his value, we are probably going to see Glutos at the center of a lot of lists. I’ve seen people talking about a Archaon the Everchosen/Glutos combo that would allow you to heal Archaon, essentially making him even harder to kill.
At first, I thought blissbarbs were overpriced, but their cost seems far more reasonable when you consider their battalion, the Dreaded Carnival. Shooting is a luxury, and any variation is always going to make a unit stand out. Being able to shoot a maximum of 66 shots with -1 rend into something during the hero phase, before your opponent can shoot first or retaliate, is extremely powerful and even somewhat op. This also doesn’t include the opportunity to generate additional attacks. The biggest weakness however, is that our archers are very vulnerable to any sort of attacks. Once they’re targeted, they’re not going to last long. Probably the most delicate glass cannons we have in the book.
Both mortal seekers are ok, but would be more reasonable with a small decrease to their costs, especially the Blissbarb seekers. The Slickblades have more potential because they’re very fast, and can cause mortal wounds on 6s.
The mortals that need the biggest changes to points are the painbringers, twinsouls, and especially the fiendbloods.
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3 hours ago, Havkai said:
Well, My opponent tried typical Hag Narr DoK. The only pain in the butt is Morathi, but she constantly generates DP because can't be killed. Sigvald is invaluable here as he ignores devotee and shreds through witch elves. Glutos with geminids creates an enourmous debuff bubble. And geminids now also generates dp when cast (but not between rounds. I think). Archers chip everything else, ran onto objectives and screened glutos. KoS went ahead to double activate Siggy. Golden Boy killed Bloodwrack medusa and 15 witch elves. By the end of my first turn I degraded Morathi, inflicted at least 1 wound to each enemy unit. Bloodwrack is dead, He spent the only CP on one pack of witch elves, other has run away. And all army is under gemininds. Because new Hag Nar trait makes you group up a lot around General. And I got 8 DP.
Gloomspite played squigs and it was not very informative.
CoS is fine because everyone plays PG and Siggy loves them. Also generates lots of DP. Last time I played against Hallowheart and it was a bit harder because more mortal wounds than regular Hammerhall. But again outflanking Siggy makes opponent to stretch a lot and still loose something valuable. Also charging a wall of PGuards with new locus is pure satisfaction. I had about 10 DP at my second turn, spent everything and generated 8 again. I haven't played against a shooting list so it is in a to-do list.
BCR is harder, it depends on how good opponent will through FNP. Chipping is not very productive because of Mawpot, he simply heals so I had to kill outright a unit and deny DP myself. Sigvald dies on retaliation. It is hard to charge with him and expect him to survive a counter charge with stonehorn. But with Glutos, geminids and Shardspeeker we have a good chance to debuff targets that we are not going to kill this turn. DP generation is a bit slower.
Also I make Siggy 1 of my generals so after outflank if he stays in opp's territory, I get an extra DP.
I feel Slaanesh is a strong tier 2, but will struggle against current meta. I will check later how much agony I will suffer against tier 1 armies)I predict that the most competitive lists we are going to see coming out of HoS, so far, will include in some combination Sigvald, Glutos, Daemonettes (cheapest battleline we have), and a KoS (summoned or taken via points); Perhaps also Blissbarbs and Seekers. A lot of the mortal stuff is just too overpriced to include in competitive play, but for causal/narrative it might be ok. The only exceptions are Glutos and Sigvald, who are great in their own ways. Across the internet people are generally in agreement that our book is generally weak, and I suspect a point decrease around spring.
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20 minutes ago, Grimrock said:
Ok, third game down and probably the last until I actually have the book. I tried this out for pretenders:
Keeper
- Strength of Godhood, Strongest Alone
- Silverslash
- Progeny of Damnation
Infernal Enrapturess
Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot
- Born of Damnation3x11 Blissbarbs
10 Myrmidesh
2x5 Chaos Knights
2x Iron GolemsSlaanesh has been doing decently for me so I decided to ramp up the difficulty and try fighting Tzeentch. The list was a changehost with a Lord of Change, Blue Scribes, Fateskimmer, 20 pink horrors, 6 flamers, 3 flamers, 1 exalted flamer, 3 screamers, 10 brimstone horrors. Not generally viewed as a particularly competitive list, but it is flexible. The scenario was shifting objectives. Some notes from the game:
1. The iron golems were great. They were absurdly tanky for their points and generated a decent amount of depravity while also being total throw away units to hold objectives. I think they're one of the best ally choices we have based on what our book is lacking
2. Chaos knights were... ok. Tanky and fast enough, but no real damage to speak of. Like @Enoby said, just not quite good enough
3. Myrmidesh were tanky and did good damage, but oddly speed 6 felt too slow for the army. I had to deploy a little further back to avoid an alpha strike from the flamers, but that meant the myrmidesh spent two turns working their way to an objective. Tzeentch was able to just ignore them or feed them chaff until turn 3
3. Tzeentch prioritized the Blissbarbs early to cut off depravity. The Blissbarbs were too squishy to stand up to even mediocre shooting and, combined with their bravery of 6, were pretty much all gone at the end of round 1. They're great against melee armies, but against an opponent with ranged attacks that knows their value don't expect the Blissbarbs to last long
4. The list was about as resilient as I could make it, but in the end it wasn't good enough. Tzeentch ranged attacks and magic were used to focus down targets and actively avoid generating unnecessary depravity. This game I only got to summon 30 daemonettes turn 3 and 10 more on turn 4.
5. Slaanesh had absolutely no answer to the 20 teleporting pink horrors. They followed the shifting objective, deleted a unit a turn, and gained control of the objective by auto charging using destiny dice. There was one chance to do some damage with the 30 summoned daemonettes, but they failed their re-rollable charge the turn they came in and that was about it
6. Honestly the game only lasted until round 4 because there was no double turn. If at any point tzeentch had gotten a double turn it would have been over. This is particularly true at the beginning of round 2. If there was a double turn there then there would have been too many dead slaanesh units to generate more than a handful of depravity points from then on.What I'm really struggling with is there are no battalions to get Slaanesh down to 1-2 drops outside of the pleasurebound warband from S2D. This means that there's a good chance we'll always be forced to go first against a competitive list, and then a round 2 double turn pretty much ends the game. Too much dies over a double and after that there just isn't enough left to generate the depravity needed to use summoning effectively. This is the biggest flaw of the book I've found so far, and the only possible solution I can think of is finding ways to hurt your own units and generate a large amount of depravity on turn one. The Fomoroid Crusher or Plague Censer Bearers mentioned by others are good ways to do this, but honestly.... I just don't really like the idea. I'm already not particularly happy that I'm feeling compelled to reach for S2D units to shore up weaknesses present in a brand new book, but having to go completely outside of the Slaanesh keyword and grab allies feels even worse. Not much more I can say, but I'm hopeful someone else will find some answers I'm missing.
From what I am gathering from your experience, as well as others who’ve been experimenting with the new tomb, it feels like a lot of the mortal stuff could use a decrease in point costs. Painbringers could be brought down to about 120-130ish range. I have a feeling that (hopefully) in the next month or two, based on feedback and play testing, we’re going to get a faq that gives a decent decrease to some of our units.
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In my previous posts, I had said that there was nothing in the release that seemed to interest me much, and that I will be holding back from purchasing the battletomb because I felt the mortal release is a disappoint. Since then, I've given a few days to think, and watch some videos on the subject (The Honest Wargamer and Reroll Ones on Youtube), and read some Goonhammer articles reviewing the battletomb. I've also taken the time to look over the statistics that are being posted here and on various places throughout web, and have done some point/dps comparisons.
This release has sparking a number of mixed emotions. Some people are thrilled, and are claiming that there's a lot to be excited about; others are on the complete opposite of the spectrum and are very upset. There is such a division in opinions, that this actually might be one of the most divided releases I've seen in AoS. As a disclaimer, I am no established authority on the matter; I do not run tournaments or work closely with those that balance the game. However, I have been wargaming for 10+ years as a casual and sometimes tournament gamer, and I feel that I've built enough experience to make some confident assessments based on instinct and my knowledge of the game.
This being said, there are some disclaimers I wish to establish:
- Math is a wonderful tool that can used as evidence, but it is no way proof that something is under or overperforming. There are many, many other factors to consider in order to determine if something is over or underpowered for its points. Some considerations include, but are not limited to: battalions, allegiance abilities, synergy capabilities between other units and heroes, subfaction benefits, and special rules on the warscrolls. Blightkings are a great example. On paper, they don't seem powerful, and by themselves they're not. However, with battalion bonuses they go from being a meh unit to being a fantastic battleline. Khorne is another example, as many of his units have average warscrolls, but once you include the number of easy +1 stackable attack buffs and +1 to hit/wounds the army can receive, this changes very quickly. A 10 man bloodwarrior unit will decimate low-armored targets due to numerous stackable buffs that aren't represented on the warscroll. Math gives us an insight, but is far from the full truth.
- Buffing isn't the only factor to consider, there's also debuffs. Many armies have the ability to debuff stats or outright deny abilities that other armies will use, and it's important to consider that when looking at base stats, they will be altered for better or worse. Tzeentch is hard to play against because of it's strong shooting, magic, and ability to provide very strong debuffs. Expect to have units debuffed or have their abilities nullified within our army.
- Playtesting is very important, and I absolutely agree that it is necessary to test before making any final decisions. The biggest challenge with playtesting however, is that sometimes it's in a controlled environment and is unable to account for many different factors. Usually, GW would use tournament data, but because of the past year's turbulence many important events were cancelled. The winter FAQ Should have helped alleviate the many problems that BoC and Sylvaneth have (both under preforming armies). The FAQ brought very little change and players were upset; GW's reasoning was that there was little to no tournament data to use as a base for the changes.
With this considered, my opinions are very mixed. As a mortals player, I have to say I am let down, and I do believe there needs to be some reasonable point adjustments based on the factors I've included above, but there are a couple mortal units that stand out. However, Daemon players are going to be happy with what they've received, and there will be competitive builds using Daemon units. I've hid the content because it's a lot, but it essentially outlines my feelings towards the release. This is what I've gathered with some careful analysis over the past couple of days:
SpoilerUnits/Design that is strong or well-made:
- Most of the Daemon units are very solid and can be used effectively. The Locus of Diversion (prevents pile ins), mixed with the ability to generate additional attacks on 6s, makes Daemons of Slaanesh a force to be reckoned with. Add in battalions, subfactions, and WTs, etc. and Daemon players are going to be very happy. Especially considering their spell lore is still decent and very much useable.
- Depravity generation is strong, and one can easily generate enough points to summon in big units of Daemonettes, Fiends, Daemon heroines, KoS, or whatever you fancy
- Summoning is powerful (even if it means only summoning once per turn), and I guarantee that our summoning mechanic is easily going to be a main focus in competitive play; especially considering how powerful Daemon units are
- Good support for our heroes
- Powerful endless spells
- Sigvald and Glutos are powerful heroes that will also be seeing the tabletop, both in casual and at a tournament level. Especially the Lord of Gluttony and his buffs/debuffs; Sigvald can target whatever you want removed. Just be careful, as he only has a movement of 6 inches and 6 wounds.
- Slickblades are good. The biggest problem with Slickblades is that they're too fast, which is ironic because that's supposed to be their strength. They're not going to be receiving any buffs from most heroes or abilities because very likely they'll be out of range, and their +5 save makes them weak against shooting and prolonged combat; their low bravery also means they're weak to battleshock. The best unit to bring along will be the Bladebringer for the reroll 1's to hit spell. Thankfully, being able to cause mortal wounds on 6's while generating an additional attack will make them good at outflanking or hitting vulnerable targets; they might need a small point decrease but they're overall decent at being an independent outflank unit; especially considering they're 4 wounds and very fast. The battalion is very costly and will require you to build an army around using it, and doesn't really give a good benefit for what you need to invest. It's better to take them outside the battalion.
- Blissbarbs also have a lot of potential. They are very expensive, but after reconsideration I can see why. Shooting is a luxury, and using Blissbarbs will require us to build an army around using them. Taking small units of 11 each won't do us any good. Instead, the best way to utilize them would be to take them in a max squad of 33 in the Depraved Carnival battalion, and taking a smaller one or two squads on the side. They would throw out a minimum of 66 shots, and with allegiance abilities will allows us to generate attacks, and you can snipe Katakros, Lord Kroak, or anything you feel will cause you trouble; especially considering you'll be able to shoot in the hero phase. It's expensive and requires us to screen with Daemons, but it can work well if the army is strategically built. Maybe a small point drop on them is necessary, but with summoning, this has the potential to kick a lot of butt. Just watch out for shooting and flanking units, as Blissbarbs will drop like flies. The OBR catapult will absolutely obliterate this unit, and there's little you can to to stop it.
Units/Design that probably will need point adjustment or buffs:
- Painbringers have a good defense, can do decent damage and provide some needed buffs to mortals, but they're slow, thus vulnerable to shooting and mortal wounds. In combat they'll shine, but they're easy to snipe at five wounds. A point drop to the range of 100-120 would be far more reasonable.
- Shardspeakers have the same issue as Painbringers, but more so. A +5 save and 6 inches movement is not good, especially considering you have to be very close to use her abilities. She needs to be screened, and that won't prevent her from being sniped. Her abilities are also not guaranteed, and although they won't use command points, they're somewhat hard to pull off.
- Painbringers suffer from the same issues above: slow and overpriced. Very vulnerable to shooting and mortal wounds, and don't have a lot of attacks; the mortal wound output and additional attacks from 6s don't help much. The reroll to save is nice, but against rend which is increasingly common in todays meta, the 150 point price tag is going to make it a challenge for them to earn their points back. The battalion for them and the Twinsouls is also lackluster: +1 to wound on a charge isn't consistent and will only help the first round of combat. A decrease in to 100-120 point on their warscroll is far more reasonable.
- Twinsouls suffer from the same issues as painbringers, and although they may have higher damage output, the lack of rend makes them better against chaff. They're not bad, just overpriced by a lot. 170 points for a 5 man 2 wound unit? They're so easy to snipe and kill with anything you throw at them. There have been comparisons to Chosen, but Chosen have the ability to provide a fantastic buff to StD units around them, and are to be used as support units for blocks of marauders/chaos warriors around them. Twinsouls are designed to cause damage, and don't provide synergy buffs. Best use is with something screening them to prevent retaliation. They'd be far more reasonable at 140-150 points.
- The Masque and Shalaxi are weak, need some point reductions to make them attractive
Units/Design that will need a rework or decent point adjustment:
- Mortal spell lore is just bad, and really needs to be re-examined. I don't see any reason to take or use any of the spells listed.
- Slaangor Fiendbloods: I truly believe they are the worst unit in the game. Low damage potential for their point cost, low survivability, and little to no synergy within the book or outside armies. Unlike the Painbringers/Twinsouls that at least get a battalion, the fiendbloods have none! They offer no synergy with BoC because lack of keywords, and also need to footslog across the board like every other infantry unit in the game. They're a waste of 140 points both in casual and competitive; the only redeeming factor is that they are three wounds and will at least generate six depravity points once they're predictably destroyed. My recommendation? Huge point decrease, or big bonuses/changes to their warscroll. Even with buffs from both the painbringer and shardspeaker they're going to underperform.
I apologize for the long post, there's just a lot to unpack. Overall, I just think we need some decent point decreases within a good portion of the mortal range, and maybe a few of the Daemons as well. The only unit I feel needs a total rework/massive decrease is the Fiendbloods because of how little they contribute to the army. Regarding emailing GW, I do think a concrete and respectful email is perfectly ok because as mentioned, point decreases would really make these units shine a lot more; the biggest concern is what to do with the Fiendbloods.
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18 minutes ago, Enoby said:
On the other hand, I think the stats of the units are all workable and it's the price that's throwing people off. Imagine if Painbringers were 100pts for 5, they'd seem a tonne better and I think people would be more upbeat about their rules.
I think we're costed so high as we're paying for our summoning through model cost and they don't want a repeat of 2019 where our summoning was crazy good and just plain unfun. If we try this army out and the summoning is underwhelming or the feel just isn't there, then I think we'll have a much better case to stand on and best thing is that points are by far the easiest thing to fix. I almost think the cost is set at the upper limit and ready to come down, unless we come off as very OP
I very much agree that if painbringers were 100 point that it would be far more reasonable. 200 points for a 20 wound unit would be something worth considering, and I hope that GW revalues some of the point costs for these units.
So far, as I look at the battletomb more my stance that the units are underwhelming for their point costs is unchanged. However, as you mentioned with the right point adjustments it will be far more balanced.
The only two units I feel they really did dirty were the Fiendbloods and Slickblade Seekers.
the Fiendbloods need a overhaul in terms of point costs and rules: they’re not the shock assault unit that was promised. The Slickblades are in a better place, however they still need some reworks to make viable on the charge.Even the battalions don’t play to our strengths, they just seem very boring and out of place. Not to mention the lack of synergy with StD and BoC. I’m going to write an email to them later; I’m not angry just a bit confused and disappointed at some of the balancing within the battletomb. Fighting chaos of any variety should be scary, not underwhelming. I’m also not saying we should be overpowered, but there should be a sense of “oh snap he brought painbringers” when you seen them approach.
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Truthfully, and I really do t mean to be the pessimist, but so far nothing to me seems to be interesting besides the Lord of Gluttony and Sigvald. Everything is just very overpriced, and doesn’t do anything well. Fiendbloods are the worst example, and I don’t know how they managed to release them with stats and rules like that; the other units are either just ok or below average.
I'm happy to say that painbringers are probably the “best” new unit, but to say they’re good is really stretching it. The +4 reroll save is nice, but only two attacks at damage 1? Plus they only have 2 wounds. 10 painbringers would cost you 300 points, against a Mortek Guard blob of 20 (260 points) they’ll drop like flies. Painbringers are subpar, and fall to dedicated melee units.
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15 minutes ago, Enoby said:
This is a shame to hear - though I do understand. I think we don't have anything stand out crazy, but we do have some really nice tricks.
For example, if we combine daemons and the new seekers - let's say a Keeper and Slickblades. You can take Slickblades in our old seeker battalion (6" pile in out of 6"), and the new locus means the keeper can charge into the corner of a unit, stop the piling in with the locus, and the slickblades can pile into a model elsewhere. Only one model can attack the keeper (due to no piling in), and no models can attack the slickblades if they use their 2" range.
I think writing to GW would help, but only after a few test games (either watching battle reports, using proxies, or table top simulator) so you can give a detailed report. I think we'll have a lot of tricks, but we're not out and out super powerful. We have a lot of power tied to our allegiance abilities
Honestly, what bothers me the most is the lack of transparency and the sketchy behavior that GW portrays. As an analogy, it’s sort of like how game developers at E3 show off these really awesome “gameplay demos” that aren’t reflective of the game’s final release.
It’s the same for GW when they market to us. Leading up the release, Fiends were described as being “engines of destruction” with razor sharp claws that snip off heads, and that they’re going to be very scary shock assault units. Clearly that’s not the case.
if they were just honest about what was coming, then I wouldn’t be as upset; but the fact of the matter is that GW doesn’t tease rules that they are confident in. The Dark Angels got a lot of love because they’re very powerful; other releases that are weak don’t get as much covered because they’re afraid of scaring away their customers.
Don’t quote me on this, but I’m 80% confident that I heard that the covid has impacted GW’s ability to play test, which makes sense considering that the UK recently underwent another lockdown due to the new strain.
However, I feel it’s just common sense just by simply glancing at the warscroll. Slaangors will be destroyed by pretty much anything point-to-point. Blood warriors, mortek guard, witch aelves, fyerslayers, etc. will slap them around without effort, and they’re all troops!
In my humble opinion, people should voice their disappointment. At least it would spark discussion that can hopefully get their attention. Minimum is a +1 damage increase to their attacks.
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46 minutes ago, AngryPanda said:
I’m very happy that I was wrong in predicting that the battletomb will being underwhelming. My initial guess was that because GW was being hesitant to release rule teasers, that there was going to be some prominent unwanted changes that would have deflated hype.
From the leaks, I am confident that the release is going to be decent. The Blissbarb seekers are the only unit to me that seems “meh” so far, though to be fair there are still a lot of unknowns. Sigvald is a blender, and on the charge he’s going to tear up whatever is unfortunate to be on the receiving end. The +6 mortal wounds is nice for the painbringers, anything that allows for mortal wounds to be dealt is always a big plus. Assuming that there are more rules on the warscrolls and decent battalions, I’m not as worried about the twinsouls not having rend; I have a feeling there will be other ways to buff them via battalions or synergies.
There are still a lot of unknowns, but from what I’ve gathered I’ll have the option to put together a nice list that includes Sigvald, some painbringers, a Lord of Pain, and a shardspeaker or two. Optionally adding some Fiendbloods (glass cannon unit?) and Daemon support heroes like a Contorted Epitome or Infernal Enrapturess (assuming they can benefit mortals), and it will be a decent core. I can also try to summon in some Fiends, or other daemon units I feel will best support me.
I spoke too soon. Slaangors are awful; what the hell were they thinking?
Easily a unit of Mortek Guard (130 pt) and witch elves are far, far, far superior to them; Fiendbloods don’t even come close to these standard battleline. Now I believe my initial assumption was correct: that GW knew the rules were underwhelming and purposely didn’t tease rules otherwise it would destroy hype.
The leaks have been released, and suffice to say I’m not gonna buy the battletomb. I might buy Sigvald and the painbringers because they’re beautiful models and I do want to paint them up, but now that I do the math it seems that GW dropped the ball on this.
Just a thought, maybe we should write to GW? Get a petition to change them to better damage and stats. In most cases I would just let it go, but rules are so bad that they might be the most overpriced and useless unit in the game. If enough people express disinterest through a petition, maybe we can promote some change?
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I’m very happy that I was wrong in predicting that the battletomb will being underwhelming. My initial guess was that because GW was being hesitant to release rule teasers, that there was going to be some prominent unwanted changes that would have deflated hype.
From the leaks, I am confident that the release is going to be decent. The Blissbarb seekers are the only unit to me that seems “meh” so far, though to be fair there are still a lot of unknowns. Sigvald is a blender, and on the charge he’s going to tear up whatever is unfortunate to be on the receiving end. The +6 mortal wounds is nice for the painbringers, anything that allows for mortal wounds to be dealt is always a big plus. Assuming that there are more rules on the warscrolls and decent battalions, I’m not as worried about the twinsouls not having rend; I have a feeling there will be other ways to buff them via battalions or synergies.
There are still a lot of unknowns, but from what I’ve gathered I’ll have the option to put together a nice list that includes Sigvald, some painbringers, a Lord of Pain, and a shardspeaker or two. Optionally adding some Fiendbloods (glass cannon unit?) and Daemon support heroes like a Contorted Epitome or Infernal Enrapturess (assuming they can benefit mortals), and it will be a decent core. I can also try to summon in some Fiends, or other daemon units I feel will best support me.
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I’m so excited! I can’t wait to put my Slaanesh Mortals against my Khorne Bloodbound Mortal force. GW really couldn’t have released this anymore slower; the lack of rules previews is hurting (not in the good ways that Slaanesh promises). Still, regardless of the rules are hot or not, my money is gonna go for Sigvald, but I’m still stumped on how to base him. I’m thinking of going for a desert base or beach base to match the general Persian theme that’s prevailing, but I’m unsure.
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23 minutes ago, SorryLizard said:
I aways suggest just waiting for the FAQ to drop before buying too much stuff.
You'll be able to find out the contents of the book from the general internet chatter, videos and such to join in the conversation. Then can start planning armies and/or purchases once you've seen what excites you and what bits of that excitement survive the first round of FAQs and Errata.
That’s my general plan going into this; I’m gonna hold back buying the content until I get a better feel of what the units do. What I will buy out of pure hobby is Sigvald and the painbringers just because I love the models, and I’ve been dreaming about a Slaanesh chaos warrior equivalent for a loooonnnggggg time. When they announced the myrmidesh painbringers I was both surprised and awed at the sculpts; I can’t wait to see how they and Sigvald look in Vallejo liquid gold.
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For the purpose of hobby if, I’m definitely going to buy Sigvald and a handful of painbringers, maybe some Fiendbloods as well. The models are fantastic, and they’re going to be a lot of fun to paint; I’ve also always been a big fan of Sigvald.
For the rules however, I’m gonna hold off buying the new battletomb until I see some concrete details in the form of teasers or early rule releases. It’s lot like I’m rushing to play some games anytime soon, and if the rules are unchanged and subpar, why would I want to invest in that? I can always pick up the book down the road if I’m able to eventually have time to get a few games started.
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Maybe the covid could be playing a factor? Perhaps the disruption that the covid has been causing has hampered GW and the marketing from releasing any news, or at least had made them careful in releasing info due to the disruption? Just a few coins for thought, as perhaps they’ve focused their energies towards other components being that Slaanesh is essentially finished and ready to release.
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1 hour ago, Enoby said:
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think this is mishandled marketing - or at least, something has been mishandled when it comes to rules hype.
From what I remember, the DoK have had very little said about them too - a few previews of the temples which may be the same/similar to the old tome?
Regardless, even if every single rule is the same as the last battletome and it's just new mortals stapled on, they have 9 warscrolls to reveal and hype up in the 6 days to preorder. Even if they hype one box at a time, they have the archers, the caster, the painbringer/twin souls, the two seekers, Glutos, Slaangors, and Sigvald - that's 7 articles that could be talked up in the week leading to preorder. Even if they have absolutely no new allegiance abilities and even the godawful mortal spell lore is the same, they have enough definite new content to hype up but have chosen not to.
I'm not sure of the reason (there probably is one down the line), but it's an odd choice.
I don’t mean to be pessimistic, but it could indicate that the battletomb has little to no changes regarding the current Daemon units and battalions, or the mortal units aren’t attractive on the warscrolls. Maybe the reason GW is not showing off as much content is because they know if they show us something unchanged or “weak”, it will discourage us from purchasing the battletomb.
In the past, Games Workshop and the marketing team have been sketchy regarding content that they’re not fully confident in. Arguably, in my opinion, the worst example of this was the relatively recent Deathwatch Codex that was released back in October. The details they showed were scarce, and when they were questioned about whether Primaris would have special issue ammunition, the marketing team quoted that they would via Twitter. This was a boarder-line lie: the Primaris only had access to special issue ammunition through the implementation of a very poorly/practically useless stratagem.
I hope that I am wrong, but if GW was confident that they would release something that would make people happy, they would tease it more. The Dark Angels got a lot of love leading up to their release, and they’re amazing right now; so why not us? After Sigvald was revealed I was hoping we would at least get some hype for him in the form of rule teasers, but it seems GW didn’t want to reveal the details on him either; it’s very strange.
Maybe tomorrow or Friday will get something? My hopes are high and I don’t mean to cause fear or doubt, but I am getting off bad vibes that they haven’t even teased any news rules besides the Lord of Pain giving us Painbringers/Twinsouls as troops.
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1 hour ago, Yoid said:
They already comented about Blissbarb archers being the battleline, since daemonettes (and maybe hellstriders) are gonna be battleline too, i think they already have the mele+ranged(+possibly cavalry) battleline covered. By the way they were talking i bet myrmidesh and symbaresh are not battleline. They still may have special rules like Sigvald making them battleline or something.
I bet there’s going to be ways to make myrmidesh and symbaresh battleline, and also ways to buff the respected units, through the use of special characters or battalions. I’m hoping that if their warscrolls are subpar/average, strong battalions will make the new mortal units worth taking.
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2 hours ago, Overread said:
*fingers crossed for info this sunday*
It is torturing that they are giving us some awesome short stories and lore stipites, but nothing regarding rule teasers! I feel the hype building speed; the Slaanesh release is so exciting that it feels like a holiday. Everyone is seems to be on the edge of their seat and very positive, and I am on the same boat; hopefully sometime this weekend they give us a rule tease.
Regarding the recent teasers, the Lord of Gluttony parallels distinctively from Sigvald, yet both are very much Slaaneshi. I really like this, and I hope that in the future releases that the writers and GW continue to creatively explore Slaanesh's diversity. I also assumed the Lord of Gluttony would be a cannibal, but I didn't expect him to be eating the raw brains and flesh of his victims so carelessly; the way they described him biting into the brain like it's a common snack and having the fluids rip from his mouth is vividly shuddering and gross. Imagining his followers going into a feasting frenzy after the battle also isn't pleasant to imagine. This is the type of behavior I would expect from beastmen, skaven, or other mindless/animalistic chaos followers. It seems that the creative teams/writers aren't holding back when it comes to the grittier and darker realty that Slaanesh represents.
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AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion
in Hedonites of Slaanesh
Posted · Edited by AngryPanda
A good number of us are mentioning that there is little to no synergy within the book, and I can’t agree more. This, along with the units being generally overpriced, is really hampering the new books potential.
A while ago when we were speculating, I posted that even if the units themselves have below average warscrolls, strong allegiance abilities, battalions, and hero buffs can make up for it. Unfortunately, the “synergies” are all over the place, and there is no direction or significant bonuses that are clearly defined.
For example, let’s talk about the battalions. Single or “one time” abilities, in my opinion, are the worst types a unit can have because they aren’t consistent. This applies to battalions, especially considering you’re investing the additional points. Also, the best battalions buffs strengthen the corresponding units strengths. A battalion that brings heavy hitting melee units should reasonably increase they’re capability in melee or survivability; a battalion that takes shooting units should increase the units capability to shoot.
The battalions do this to a degree, but either they are not enough to justify the points, or the additional abilities are weak and don’t correlate with their strengths. The worst are the Nobles of Excess, who get rerolls to wound on a successful charge. Painbringers and twinsouls are one of the slowest units in the book: why give a bonus ability that plays to their weakness? Giving the benefit of the doubt, let’s say you do make the charge. Rerolling is nice...but it’s only for the first round of combat. The Seeker Calvacade has same problem, as it’s a limited single use use bonus for an expensive price tag. Depraved Carnival is alright, but is extremely expensive to make work and very risky as it’s essentially a glass cannon.
The heroes are ok, and what’s great about our book is that Daemon abilities also apply to mortals; this is very unique within our tome compared to the other god factions. However, there are no consistent ways to buff our shooting, or our calvary. In my opinion, the Shardspeaker should of provided +1 to wound on general, so that Blissbarbs can get the bonus while shooting. Best way to buff our Seekers is taking a Herald on a Seeker Chariot to get rerolls to hit of 1.
I’m crossing my fingers that within the FAQ they decrease the points about 20-30 across the board for the mortal units, and for the Fiendbloods (which have no synergies at all) decrease to 90-100 points, or give them a bonus to damage 2 or something. However, I have a feeling that if we’re to get any point adjustments, it will be in the new GHB that’s rumored to be coming out.