Sinfullyvannila
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Posts posted by Sinfullyvannila
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On 2/12/2021 at 3:24 PM, Boar said:
Well they don't have S2D keyword so ->allies
This is correct but im gonna add that you can run your markable s2d stuff as Hedonites in THAT army.
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2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
From your own report:
As we can see from the top 2 lines, the skyfires beat the enlightened until the save gets up to a 6+?
Cut the Skyfire numbers by 10% to get the point for point comparison.
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They only do more damage point for point against 2+ and 3+. Unless were talking open play here. I know im not going to convince you but your bias is getting in the way of letting other people get good advice.
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Enlightened cost 10 percent less and the only times that Skyfires do more than that is against 2+ and marginally more so against 3+. Also, remember that being at range means that you are only getting that damage in half as many turns since you only shoot on your turn.
I advised against running them against MSU 3+ in the above post. But on paper they can bully them, meaning the unit they attack won't be able to hit them back hard enough to remove a model.
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Ran the math. I could only run 5 different units so the are all under the assumption that you use the agenda to pull off a 9' charge before doing that. In practice you're only going to be getting 4 models within 1" of the unit, so in all the cases except one, 2 models miss out on their 1" attacks. And on your last remark, Skyfires can only be expected to put out 7ish damage without getting into melee unless you're dumping your DDs.
Note the Skyfires doing roughly 9 on the 2+ armor. Cut it in half and that's less than what 3 of them do. That's why I'm saying bring 3 to pressure heroes, because anyone with experience knows that if the DoT player gooses a hit with their DD or hits them with a spell they can almost guarantee killing a 6 wound hero with Skyfires. Running your 6 Skyfires against 5+ is fine too, but you only ever want to use your bows against heroes or a unit of 10 5+ units like Arkos or Ungors to try to bait out an opponents use of a CP. Going against anything tougher than 5+ in melee and you'll lose out on efficiency. On paper, you can bully MSUs of 3+ like Liberators or Chaos Warriors pretty well with 6 Skyfires, but in practice your opponent is going to use them to bait out your Skyfires to get them into their threat range.
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6 hours ago, The Red King said:
Slaangor have the beasts of chaos keyword but at a glance they are just worse than bestigor and dont benefit from BoC in any way that Bestigor don't. That's just my initial read though.
It really depends on how they're pointed. Im not gonna hold my breath but if they're around 100 i'd consider running one of them.
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1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:
The way to use skyfires is to soften up a target with shooting and mortals from spells, then commit when you are likely to finish it off, or put it at a point where it can't fight back.
The way to use enlightened is to look for ways to protect them and buff their defenses so they can get rerolls while taking minimal casualties.
Both are equally weak to getting counter-charged, since they have the same bulk and need to expose themselves to take down units.
Discs of Tzeentch also only have a 1" attack range, so if your enlightened are hanging behind a unit to fight after your opponent has piled in they'll lose a lot of damage unless the unit in front is destroyed or on 25mm bases and is 1 model deep (you'll probably have some chaff units in your army to use for this).
I prefer skyfires because I don't like leaving my unit's effectiveness to chance, if you underestimate their damage, or they roll high/you roll low its easy for the enlightened to lose a lot of effectiveness. You don't need to worry about that if you fight first, and the skyfires do win out on damage in that scenario as long as they shoot at the thing they're going to fight.If they costed the same points you may have a point but they cost more. Just looking at dice rolls doesn't have any practical value. You have to look at what other tools you have available and also what you're using your units against and how much all of those things cost.
And you never have to be in a situation where you "worry" about getting hit first with the Enlightened. You have 16", fly, and destiny dice to charge. You get your defensive buffs in your hero phase. You get to engage on your terms with them. And if you bring the bull you can activation wars the other unit. You only have to worry about when you get hit with Skyfires.
I don't think were going to come to agree on this, but I do use both in my lists. I just only use 3 Skyfires for pressure on heroes, opportunitstic kills(especially punishing heroes) and stealing objectives because 6 have literally never made their points back. So 3 do all the work that 6 have for me. If you're going to spend 400 points on a fragile flying unit that does mortals at range and also does melee work you're better off running Kairos. Or if you're looking for damage at range you're better off with Flamers, or your leader and Acolytes in a Pyrofane list.
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11 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
The extra risk involved in using enlightened is that their rerolls trigger after a nearby enemy unit has fought, while skyfires get rerolls if they fight before any nearby enemy units fight. So in order to get those rerolls on the enlightened you need to do some sneaky pile-in manipulation or take a hit, but skyfires can get the rerolls without getting hit first as long as they aren't fighting last or the opponent has fights first. The damage is really comparable when comparing skyfires with rerolls to enlightened without them, which represents them fighting first, and is the least risky way to use them.
To summarize:- 6 enlightened with rerolls do absurd damage, but it's very hard to have 6 surviving to get rerolls
- 4 enlightened with rerolls will outdamage 6 enlightened without rerolls, or 6 skyfires with rerolls and shooting (by a noticable, but not huge, amount)
- 6 skyfires shooting their target first and getting rerolls will outdamage 6 enlightened without rerolls, and the skyfires don't need to worry about losing models before they attack
- The skyfires don't need the tzaangor shaman near them when in melee, only when they shoot.
I'm VERY well aware of the risks.
Skyfires just arent going to be able to hit things hard enough to make the unit ineffective. Then in a real game your opponent is going to hit them with another unit. And since you know what defensive buffs your enlightened are going to have in your hero phase, you know when you're going to be able to take the initial hit and when you have to hit them first.
Also, you dont even need to necessarily take a hit if you play them right. You just need to attack a unit that already fought within 3". You can position them behind your anvil, have the anvil take the hit, then pile in and fight. Either your opponent won't be able to pile in, or they'll pile in enough to be ineffective against your enlightened.
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11 hours ago, Ganigumo said:
Depends what you're hitting, enlightened and skyfires want to function as a hammer unit, and theres plenty of stuff I wouldn't want to let touch my 24 wound, 360 point hammer on a 5+. Theres plenty of stuff that can paste a unit like that if you're not careful.
That said even just 4 enlightened with rerolls will do around 16-25 damage, but thats only around 4 damage more than attacking with 6 without rerolls.
At the end of the day you can be a lot more surgical with skyfires, and don't need to take as many risks when using them, but they do cost more.
Oh yeah they aren't blood knights for durability. But you're gonna have the same defensive profile as Skyfires and unless your opponent is terrible, youre going to be taking the same risks if you're looking to outperform Enlightened. So you should also be getting the same buffs as Enlightnened(ideally more than 1 neg hit buff and full rerolls from Shield of Fate) or they'll get just as splatted.
Kairos is a better pick than 6 Skyfires unless you're running up against Teclis. And even in that matchup you arent going to be able to afford to use your destiny 6's to proc the Mortal wounds.
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On 2/8/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ganigumo said:
6 skyfires shooting should do around 2-6 damage, or 3-7 with a shaman nearby.
If the skyfires shoot their target first, and get rerolls you can expect slightly higher total damage than enlightened with similar buffs.
On 2/8/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ganigumo said:6 skyfires shooting should do around 2-6 damage, or 3-7 with a shaman nearby.
If the skyfires shoot their target first, and get rerolls you can expect slightly higher total damage than enlightened with similar buffs.
The 4/6 Enlightnened left after taking a hit should be doing well over 20 damage unless you're hitting something exceptional like Gotrek or Morathi.
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Skyfires are most certainly not going to outfight enlightened even if they benefit from the rerolls and the Enlightened do not.
They are not good melee units for their points. Its simply that you have to get them into melee to cut down on their inefficiency if you plan on using them as a damage piece instead of a utility piece.
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You can do a pile-in and safely fight 1" units without losing out on damage with the Enlightened on Foot. That's reliant on your opponent messing up though.
I don't recall if fly works in the charge phase in AoS(too much 40k lately) but if it does, you can do your 9" charge agenda very easily unless your opponent is extremely brilliant with screening. I'm not certain the 80 point increase is worth it just for the damage, but a 16 inch flying fall-back onto an objective is always a great option.
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They only lose their rerolls if they made a normal move. Normal moves are only done in the move phase unless an ability states otherwise. Charges aren't normal moves.
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I forgot to put it in earlier but the thing your Skyfires bring to the table is putting pressure on your opponent. As long as you have a 6 on your DDs they have to worry about you throwing D3 mortals on their heroes and they never know when you're gonna hit a 6 on your hit rolls. I'll bring a unit of 3 but they rarely make their points back, they're in my list to try to get my opponent to make mistakes and to opportunistically grab empty objectives or flip ones that are close. They are never worth bringing if you're doing Pyrofane cult as either a Changecaster or Lord of Change will have the same ability mortal wounds on 6s but more efficiently.
Elightened are great units if you can buff 6 of them with -2 to be hit. Otherwise if you position them very carefully you can put them behind some 25mill units like Horrors or Marauders and massively punish a charge by piling into units with only 1 inch range. They'll kill basically anything except Morathi or big blobs of Horrors or Grots. Flamers will do better the better your opponents are; but my 6 man Enlightened are infamous at my FLGS.
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35 minutes ago, Ratling said:
I want to run a 6 unit of either skyfires or enlightened in my mortals army.
On paper skyfires are kinda expensive for their 4+3+ shooting. Do I miss something?
Does anybody have any suggestions?
Tzaangor Shaman gives them a passive +1 to hit and Fatemaster pushes out a reroll all hits aura with his command ability. You can also mop up units pretty well in melee.
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Hey; there's a local tournament coming up that I'm not competing in. My friends are asking me to help them prep for it. Could one of you write an Eternal Conflagration Changehost list? Since I won't be competing and won't be playing for fun(not actually looking forward to it lol) I would rather the list be written by someone else.
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I usually bring Doomblast Dirgehorn and Geminids in my lists if I run Elightened.
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Stacking 2 -to hit debuffs on the intended target makes it pretty safe wait for Visions of the past. Otherwise it’s probably better to use a Fatemaster.
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Phantasmagoria of Fate Great Bray-Shaman.
I decided to take the plunge and try running my Tzaangors as beasts of Chaos. This is my first dedicated BoC unit. He’s not quite finished; I still need to paint the scenic base and hooves, but this was a day’s work and I felt it was good enough for a celebratory post.
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On 8/7/2020 at 11:45 PM, cyberhawk94 said:
What do people think of Burning Sigil of Tzeentch for us? Especially in Gavespawn, I feel like it could be a pretty useful spell for us for much cheaper than Taurus
It’s always been an asset for me when I run it in Tzeentch lists with Tzaangors. It’s pretty low priority(id take the command point, the Direhorn and Geminids before it) though.
Assuming that you can use the #3-4 result on units that come in on Brayherd ambush or Darkwalker redeploy, all the results are excellent except for number #2.
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Does anyone know how Burning Sigil of Tzeentch’s 3-4 result(extra 1d6” of movement) interacts with reserve units? Particularly I’m thinking about using it in a BoC list and I’m wondering if I can use it on a unit that comes in out of reserve on a Brayherd Ambush to put it in a better position to charge. They both happen “at the end of the movement phase”.
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Also; I really don’t think that the LoC is a must take over the herald in the Pyrofane list either(even though I use him in one so that I have a use for my LoC since I don’t play Changehost). He doesn’t offer the synergies that he would in a Daemon Heavy list and you can pump out a lot more wounds with Enlightened and a lot more table presence with extra battleline. You can get either of these and a Battalion upgrade for the cost difference.
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2 hours ago, velveetagamerfuel said:
If i wanna go the herald route as a vehicle for chainfire does it matter which one? Or are they roughly interchangeable? LoC is probably the best option i know but its also a lot of money and im not huge on painting huge models
I’d do the on-foot one just to keep it cheap points wise.
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On 8/3/2020 at 9:35 AM, velveetagamerfuel said:
I’m trying to build a Pyrofane Cult list.
so far i have a Tzaangor Shaman, a Thaumaturge, and a Curseling coming in the mail for leaders, 40 acolytes, 10 tzaangors and 3 each of enlightened and skyfires. How should I fill this out and is there anything i should drop?
I’d go with a Fatemaster and you definitely need a LoC or Herald of some sort for the Artifact(you’re wasting it with what you got there). Heralds are still a solid choice for that artifact as you’re still getting the same number of opportunities for mortal wounds as with 1 unit of Skyfires.
Thaumaturge is pretty underwhelming. If you can get a Battalion though, he can be good with the artifact that gives you destiny dice on hit rolls of sixes. You don’t really need the Skyfires because you get their MW ability on your leader but they are ok. They’re still good for making your opponent choose between them and the artifact bearer and can still cap some cheeky objectives late game. Remember since Fatemaster let’s you reroll all hits you can reroll the normal successes and hope for more 6’s with those.
I’m assuming those Enlightened are on a disc? Get another 3 IMO.
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AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion
in Chaos
Posted
Acolytes can do a lot of heavy lifting in generating summoning points. They work well in Guild of Summoned and the ones in the Pyrofane Cult do efficient damage, but not as good as your other options.