Sinfullyvannila
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Posts posted by Sinfullyvannila
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I'm not very optimistic about it. Battalions are definitely an issue right now but an easier fix would have just been to ban the egregious ones in matched play rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater. Now instead of ad hoc balancing of battalions they have to absolutely nail warscroll balance, which they have proven to be less than spectacular at. I haven't actually read the Soulblight book yet but I haven't heard whether they redesigned behemoths like they should have.
EDIT: After quickly checking the Zombie Dragon Warscroll they in fact have not. D6 damage is still overvalued and move decreases far too much. Very disappointed.
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I think the hitting on 4's is why they gave the Dirgehorn a hit debuff. It also would be less of an issue if we had at least one relyable reroll all hits buff. Right now we only have the beastlord.
If we had a reroll command ability and a reroll spell 4s probably wouldnt be an issue.
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Unpopular opinion warning:
I'd actually be fine with BoC being a "challenge" army like Goblins in Blood Bowl; if they actually transparently marketed them that way. Narratively they are just there to threaten and horrify civilans, keep Order armies from overexpanding and demonstrate the ways other factions shine. I'd be happier if they designed one highly competitive build and the rest of the book holding to that narrative. I think thats a completely valid narrative space.
Of course, id welcome changes to level the playing field, particularly ways to make monsters more playable. Or at least give ambushing units substantial bonuses. OMaybe give us a couple unique unnamed units (like the loreseeker in LRL) that give big buffs. Something like the Icebrow Hunter would be awesome. And Warherd should be in at least the top tier, if not the individual gold standard for impact hit efficiency. It would also be nice if they redesigned Gors as our Wound Efficiency unit, and then put Ungors in at least B-Tier horde bonus(since 32 mils just fundamentally dont work in hordes). Heck, they could just straight up rip off the Squigs base stats for Gors except with bigger move and no Squigs Go Wild!
At least its not as massive a blunder as the Stormcast or to a lesser extent, pre-battletome Slaves to Darkness rules implementation.
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Yeah I believe you are right. We were both operating under the cognitive error that "everything auto fails on one" but in actuality the auto-fails on ones are exceptions that only happen in the rules that the topical rules specifically tell you not to use.
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For rules with attacks that say "ignore the attack sequence" do 1s autofail?
This issue came up in a game today, I was using Crushing Grip, and my buddy was using a Warp Lightning cannon. I wasnt aware of tge warp lightning cannons rules, and my opponent rolled a 1 on it, and i didnt notice it. Then later I used crushing grip on his 1 wound battleline, so I told him I succeeded and when he brought up the Warp Lightning cannon I told him it also didnt autofail because it had the same wording. We decided to not remove the model for crushing grip and play as if it did fail for consistencies sake. I tried looking up a clarification on the internet but couldnt find it.
If anyone could point me to a ruling on it id appreciate it.
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1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:
Well that is at least one crapshow I am less worried about than excited to see how it splatters.
Im less optimistic about it. I think the success of eliminating them is predicated on them absolutely nailing unit Warscroll balance and they seem utterly incapable of that.
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On 5/4/2021 at 10:09 AM, Tullbeard said:
I don’t think I’m allowed to post extracts from the battletome here, but I’ve been frantically searching for salvation as to how Kragnos could still be for beasts of chaos.
Page 10 of the Beasts of Chaos Battletome talks about the ‘Legend of the Prime Progenitor’.
I’m convinced this is Kragnos.
My take:
Beastmen are descended from Kragnos. Kragnos imprisoned by Kroak. In his absence, beastmen devolve into chaos. Kragnos is back and will reclaim beastmen from the grips of Chaos.
I think (read: delusionally hope) that you can take Kragnos is a beasts of chaos allegiance, but doing so makes you Destruction allegiance (I.e. no chaos allies, choose allies from destruction) and you’re forced to only include Brayherd and Warherd units (I.e. everything else in the battletome is too mutated or chaos aligned).
Any thoughts? Delusional ramblings? Or is our salvation around the corner?!
P.S. Please GW
Thats an interesting take. There have been rumors of a cross-allegiance faction for a while.
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On 4/26/2021 at 4:41 PM, SAWhit88 said:
A new player looking for some advice.
I have collected a disciples of tzeentch force that I intend to make a little less squishy with S2D units (warriors, knights, warshrine). I would also like to run the Phantasmagoria of fate battalion as I like the look of BoC units, and I would like to have a cygor as a mage sniper with fate dice. My questions are:
- Has anyone got experience of running this battalion with DoT? Or does its ability to give non wizard units a chance to dispel work too much against the summoning mechanic?
- Would I be better off taking a ghorgon than a cygor?
Any advice/anecdotes welcome and my apologies for the noob questions!
If youre going for not-squishy Horrors are much more durable than the S2D models; assuming you have a Daemon hero to provide Locus and Inspiring Presence.
Ungors are an ok alternative but you'd be going for a different kind of durability. Just absolutely flooding the board with them an maneuvering them so that your opponent can only kill so many units per turn.
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I think the problem with shooting seems to be more about powerful shooting combined with movement shenenigans, and just that some armies have no way to deal with that. The game, without any shooting, would just be melee death stars vs melee deathstars.
Also there is value to internal imbalance, in that it allows you to handicap yourself against people beginning to collect an army or just starting out the game fresh.
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1 hour ago, herohammer said:
Biggest problem with tzaangor and acolytes is just the existence of horrors at their current point cost. At the end of the day they would have to be brokenly good at killing things to match the horrors' broken resiliency. If horrors were twice as expensive people would consider tzaangor or acolytes and would find that they are really fine compared to other army's battleline.
No they aren't.Anything on 25mil instantly blows them out of the water on actual tabletop performance. Thats a problem with 32mils in general. Offensive units on 32mils are hideously difficult to balance.
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On 2/10/2021 at 11:46 AM, meatpipeline said:
You could always use the War Mammoth from Lord of the Rings and kitbash a shrine of some kind on top. That would be pretty sweet.
There might be something interesting you could do with a Herdstone as well... maybe kitbash it onto a Chaos Chariot? Or a Tuskgor Chariot?
Tuskgor Chariots are actually quite tiny
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On 3/3/2021 at 11:51 PM, Gesundheit said:
I know horrors are realy durable, but if I want to use them as battleline i lose 660P with no damage(!) and my list is an autobuild after that. I got nearly 10k points of Tzeentch and I just play a few of these models. Flamers are realy strong and Deal a lot of damage, but I don’t want to spam them to deal damage! I mean you guys a really right in many of your points, but I hoped for much more. Why no tzaangor general on foot? I don’t want to mix army’s....
Like I said I won’t be happy, but that’s how it is.😅 I am thankful that some of you are on my side.🤷🏼♂️
But I can understand anyone who likes the battletome😊👍Horrors are only a "loss" of 420 points max. You gotta pay your battleline tax and your cheapest options is Screamers. Honestly you can get away with only 1 unit of Horrors, especially in casual games.
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Ok, I guess I have no idea of what your concept of a general purpose unit is. Do you have an example for me? If having an asset like durability disqualifies it, they don't sound useful at all to me.
Im judging Horrors as an aggregate of how they perform throughout AoS' history. Before the most recent incarnation of them they could not anvil because their Splits formed a distinct unit. You could use them fpr just about anything based on what spells you could give them.
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44 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:
Yeah GW does seem to be getting rid of horde discounts, across the board, but they get diminishing returns on investment in a way many units don't because their casting/dispelling doesn't get any better with more bodies. The first 9 Kairics are actually more valuable than any extras.
If the specialization of kairics is antimagic it has no place in the army. We generally have more unbinds than we know what to do with, get rewarded if our opponent casts spells, and have better dispel/unbind options than a +1. Maybe a unit like this, at this cost, would be useful in an army with weaker antimagic in general, but in Tzeentch the antimagic is valued less because we have easy access to it anyway. I don't think they're horribly overcosted, but generally AOS prefers specialized units to generalist ones, and in this book they feel like a generalist option.
I've made Tzaangors work, but it does take a lot. Grashrak's spell + Arcane Suggestion saw them cut down a mega gargant in a single round. I've been running a unit of 20 in my games with some good results, but it makes listbuilding very difficult and they definitely need proper support. They're currently 90 points for 5, which is the same as chaos warriors, but they hit harder with less bulk (although Chaos warriors also aren't great). I wouldn't hate a point drop on them, but I'd be happier if I could just take them in units of 15, since we'd still need to bring them in 20s.
One of them is LoC which is probably not worth his points if you aren't going Daemon heavy. Another is Kairos who can't get put into a battalion. The third is Curseling who can't be put into a battalion and also has a much lower footprint. All of them are less durable point-for-point than Karics. And we actually know PRECISELY what to do with those specific unbinds; that is to use DDs to steal or reflect spells when strategically valuable. We get a lot fewer unbinds in an Arcanite list, maybe 6, all on like the most fragile heroes point for point, in a meta where there is absolutely no problem whatsoever to melt them with ranged attack.
Kairics get to punish successful casts. Which is significant against the armies which we are weakest against, armies which bully our casting. Those are also the strongest armies right now. Pink Horrors are CLEARLY our all purpose unit; they just also happen to be so absurdly durable they are so exceptionally good that they appear not to be.
Even with any of those options I think one or two MSU of Kairics has value if you think youre going up against Teclis; you make your opponents decision on how many casts to give him much harder. With only 16 wounds and no ward save, he simply can't afford to the MWS they threaten him with.
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I'm pretty sure that GW is getting rid of hoard discounts across the board.
Also Kairic Acolytes are hyper specialized. They are antimagic bartleline. They deny or punish spellcasting with a ridiculously massive footprint. Which is really useful as long as your opponent is running at least one wizard since we need to use 2 DD to unbind now. Part of the reason they are costed oddly is that Horrors give us options for hyper efficient wound count. They also get some of their cost back through FP generation. If they even contribute 1 FP point to summoning something that's nearly an 8 point discount minimum.
Mini Horrors arent battleline because every single list would include two MSU of blues. Also we'd have an insane amount of battline troups. We already have 6 options for Battleline.
I definitely think that Tzaangors need work. They either need a discount, to get their extra attack rule reworked or giving their Greatblades 2" reach. They are so easy to become points ineffective its absurd. 180 points is obscene especially now that Marauders are so good.
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Him losing access to mortals because he's campaigning against Archaon is asinine both mechanically and narratively. I think he's most likely going to be an updated warscroll an nothing more. If I were a betting man I'd wager him spearheading a new wave of S2D bartleline kits.
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Im really not. We got a bunch of models a few years back, Tzaangor units, Kairic Acolyte, new horrors, the Thaumaturge and a new Lord of Change kit. Slaanesh had huge gaps in their line and now they only have one more kit than we do, as far as the GW site is concerned. The only thing we "lack" is a flavored heavy mortal unit and a tradition cavalry unit that gets bonuses on the charge.
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Also, if you can find someone to buy the Rubric Marines off of you and you convert Ahriman into a Fatemaster, the Start Collecting Thousand Sons is a really good deal.
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If you want to lean hard into Kairic Acolytes you could run Pyrofane Cult as it really boosts their damage potential. You'd still probably want a Changecaster(Herald on Foot) as none of the Arcanites make good use out of the artifact you're forced to take. You can probably find one on ebay for really cheap. You can get him in the Start Collecting Darmons of Tzeentch box which is an EXCELLENT deal,(easily in the top 5 value kits from GW) unless you dont want to buy Daemons. Still probably a good buy just for Summoning stuff. But most games i just summon Screamers and you already have that. Although the 3 screamers you get in the SC Daemons box would bring you up to the 6 you can bring in with the Artifact, and their kit is a hideous value.
I think at the start you're probably better getting 1 box of Acolytes and 1 box of Chaos Warriors. Acolytes are super fragile and Tzaangors are not tough for their points so Warriors are your only option for a reasonable tough battleline. Then run a list without a Changecoven. The Changecovens are a combination of Daemon reliant and/or a blatant incentive for spending above your point limit on your army. If you're totally on board with the SC Daemons box you can skip the Warriors and go heavy into Acolytes and do Pyrofane Cult, or still do a mix of them and run Hosts Arcanum. After you collect enough stuff you can run Changecoven.
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9 hours ago, DailyMatters said:
Hi everyone! I just found these forums and the amount of information is stunning!
I want to get my feet wet in Age of Sigmar and Tzeentch and I have the opportunity to snatch the Aether war box.
For someone who owns absolutely no Tzeentch minis at the moment and want to start doing some mini games, how would you rate this buy? ( I also like the overlords so that would be an extra).
I kind of know that in terms of Tzeentch the contents of the box are not that great, but would it allow me to expand it in significant ways in the future? If so, how ( assuming I stay loyal to the mortal side of Tzeentch)?
Many thanks for any help you can give me starting this journey.
Tzeentch is a pretty difficult army to get into cheaply because the value boxes come with models that can bring other models that aren't included with them into your game. But ill try to give some advice on them.
Unless you ABSOLUTELY DON'T WANT the Lord of change; get the Battleforce box from around Christmas if you can find it, and a Fatemaster to support your Tzaangors(Ahriman from 40k with an Acolytes Shield and no gun is a popular Kitbash). Then you'll probably want some Chaos Spawn and either Pink Horrors or Furies to get the most out of your Magister and Gaunt Summoner respectively.
If you cant get a hold of those get either a box of Karic Acolytes or Slaves to Darkness Chaos Warriors(the older kit with 16 models). Either of those will give you the battleline you need for a 1000 point game. ID say probably get a Fatemaster and then a box of Chaos Spawn. If you build your Tzaangors with the Spears you should be able to get a list like this.
Magister on Disk 140
Fatemaster 120
10 Kairic Acolytes or 5 Chaos Warriors 100
10 Kairic Acolytes or 5 Chaos Warriors 100
6 Tzaangor Enlightened on Disks of Tzeentch 360
3 Screamers of Tzeentch 80
1 Chaos Spawn 50
Extra Command point 50
It should give you 1000 points on the nose and you'll have an extra chaos spawn if you kill a model with your Magisters spell. If you really want the Tzaangors with Bows, just drop the Spawn. You'll have 10 points to spare but that's not a big deal.
The Warscrolls for the Chaos Warriors are in the Slaves to Darkness Battletome or the Age of Sigmar app. If you give the the Mark of Tzeentch they can fit natively into your army and benefit from your allegiance abilities.
Also, I REALLY recommend using contrast paints on the skin for your models, otherwise it will take forever to paint them. Gulliman or Darkoath Flesh look good on the Acolytes, Akhelian Green or Tallasar Blue looks really good on the screamers and also the Tzaangors if you do about 1-1 with Contrast medium on them.
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10 hours ago, Kasper said:
Would love to see a reasonable Chagehost list that doesnt bring any Flamers.
Horror spam in Hosts Duplicitous. Im pretty sure people only don't run it because of time constraints. Probably put in one MSU of screamers since we cant summon reliably against Teclis. People win games at tournaments with Ungor spam and its far worse. Although with new DoK it may become nonviable. Apparently they can wipe a horror blob fairly reliably.
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28 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Yes, but it still requires 8 units of those. It doesnt say "3-8" or "up to 8", it is exactly 8. If you take just about "the bare minimum" to fulfill the requirements of the batallion, you are looking at 1500ish points rather quickly, and thats before spending another 210 pts on endless spells (typically Geminids, Daemonrift, maybe Spellportal).
This army wont kill anything and you still dont have Kairos, Manticore or Be'lakor etc in the army. Thats why you dont see Changehost outside of Flamer spam because it IS restrictive and the only way to get damage into the army, while meeting the requirements of the batallion, is to have tons of Flamers. You pretty much cant play a magic version of Tzeentch while getting all the other stuff.
Again, Im not trying to claim Changehost is a bad batallion. It obviously isnt it. But it isnt a batallion that just says "pick whatever you want from this book and you are good". It heavily forces you down one road and is super restrictive when it comes to building your army.
Hard disagree. You can bring whatever you want in a changehost list unless "what you want" is more than 1/4 of your list to be not demons or you want to bring Kairos and another unit. We are one of the few factions that can put enough durability on the table not to need damage to win games.
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8 hours ago, Kasper said:
The batallions are still rather restrictive. I dont play Flamers so I often opt out of taking any batallion.
Even Changehost is semi restrictive - It forces you into a 100% Horror/Flamer + Horror heroes + LoC army. No Kairos, no Manticore etc.
Changehost is an insane batallion no doubt, but it still heavily forces your entire army building down one path - Thats why you see very little differences between the Changehost builds doing good.
Its literally every TZEENTCH DAEMON in the book except Kairos and Gaunt Summoners. Are there even any battalions that are from battletomes that let you use units which dont have their warscrolls in the same book?
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10 hours ago, Death1942 said:
I figured as much, it is a real shame the mortal battalion are so restrictive compared to the daemon ones. I feel they missed a trick there.
Its more that the Daemon side is way too good than anything else.
New dwarf army soon? Mixed dwarfs
in Order
Posted
I wouldn't say "soon" so much as a somewhat credible speculation. Definitely not getting them before Shadow Aelves.