Sinfullyvannila
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Posts posted by Sinfullyvannila
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20 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:
They will have one within the next 2-3 weeks, they always do. Will it have major changes? Maybe, maybe not, but the FAQ will be out.
Also from my understanding; this is why they sanction “Man reads book” reviews before release . Part of the policy is that the reviewers submit a FAQ report so that they can get these out ASAP.
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3 hours ago, Gwendar said:12 hours ago, Nagash42 said:
You should also remember that Inspiring Presence is a thing. It won't return Pinks to the unit, but it will keep what you have from running.
Changehost and any other list with Lord of Change uses his command ability every turn.
This is from my personal experience with running new Horrors and using DD and inspiring presence on them. I have no idea how that top tier tournament player couldn’t pressure the Tzeentch player enough to deplete his destiny dice by the end of the game.
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1 hour ago, Dolomyte said:
I like how the narrative is switching to “but but but at Cancon he had access to buffed life swarm” and willfully ignoring the GT qualifier at warhammer world where they went 1 2 3 easily. Also with no life swarm.
One person brought up the GT qualifier and then we had a small tangential discussion where the consensus seems to be that the lifeswarm is worth bringing regardless of realm. That’s hardly changing a narrative.
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10 hours ago, Malakithe said:
Then theres Horrors...whats everyones solutions to change them? Without them doing a complete warscroll overhaul i dont see them changing at all. Maybe points adjustments.
That’s a good question.
They’d probably have to go back to something like the old rules. For every 5 pinks you lose you get a unit of 10 blue Horrors in reserve that have generally the same limitations of our summoning rules except they don’t count against our once per turn summon max.
At least that puts all the headaches on the player who uses them.
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4 hours ago, Saxon said:
Because that's all a 380pt model is good for........................
There is literally nothing I’ve said in this entire thread that suggests Lord of Change is not worth 380 points.
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10 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:
I've heard rumors that the destiny dice stuff won't be changed in the FAQ anyway, so you probably don't have to worry about it.
I play Tzeentch too and even I find it a bit on the nose. You can still use 2,3,4,5 results for hits or D6 and D3 damage results or as that second dice on casting/charge roll. I think that's what they should be used for. You can still mitigate failing a short charge buy using two 3s or something like that. Those middle dice still have plenty of uses.
My problem with using those dice on battleshock tests for pink horrors is more to do with pink horrors being a terribly designed unit rather than the destiny dice rules themselves.They definitely have uses, but I hardly think that “being more useful than completely useless” is the threshold for a “plenty powerful allegiance ability”.
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11 minutes ago, Daramiz said:
I feel like you are underselling how useful this is.
Oh it’s extraordinarily useful that one time each game. Then I have 4 more that aren’t really doing anything.
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6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:
huh?
I'm just saying that while everyone is crying over Eternal Conflag Changehost, other version of Tzeentch lists obviously work well too.
Either because it's a strong, experienced player, or because something else is the problem (like the various destiny dice arguments).The destiny dice arguments are very poorly thought out.
See above. We have to use 2 dice for 2d6s now. Anything that isn’t a 5, 6 or 1 is almost worthless without a 380 point model, other than in a Battleshock test or avoiding snake eyes on the one charge I cant afford to fail each game. Like, 1/5 of my games I only get a single 5 or 6. And Pinks aren’t just “handled easily” without the Destiny Dice Change, they’d be an essentially be a worthless points trap.
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36 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:
The other thing is simply that they are brand new and people haven't learned to play against them yet. The 5th player overall at Cancon took guild of summoners with arcanite cabal and mostly mortal tzeentch. So it's not just changehost teleporting and -1 rend shooting that's too strong.
Anything that can take >6th place is too strong?
Are you fully familiar with the Destiny Dice changes? 2-4 are essentially worthless now without a Lord of Change and without the unmodified destiny dice results rule. You may be able to unbind a casting roll of of 5. Awesome. Super powerful allegiance ability there.
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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:
really wouldn't compare Horrors to Clanrats of all things. People are often not spending resources to buff Clanrats; they're a screen more often than not and can be surprisingly good at snagging objectives. I don't see Horrors needing a lot of support at all. In Conflag alone they are doing pretty significant damage and you really don't need to do anything but have a Hero nearby to give them the -1 to hit.
You need to spend your destiny dice on them every turn to keep them from running away.
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Endless Spell bomb and Lifeswarm on Horrors is a classic Tzeentch play. Nothing original about that. Just more powerful because Lifeswarm was Empowered.
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10 minutes ago, Daramiz said:
Who's list is this? Where are people complaining about it?
#Tzeentchgate on twitter apparently.
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6 minutes ago, kahadin said:
The chief complainer was running petrifex nagash...
Lol, and he’s inspiring people to complain about Locus and unmodifiable DD Battleshock rolls.
Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.
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22 minutes ago, MitGas said:
While I enjoy that Tzeentch makes every progamer cry and whine for once (serves the powergamers right), I'm fine with them nerfing it - but PLEASE, for the love of God, do it in a way where we don't need 12 pages of FAQs to play our army again like last time. I'm fine with ending up as one of the weakest armies as long as we don't have to bring a folder with all the errata and stuff...
The only needed changes this specific tournament reveals is on the page with Changehost, and probably on the page with Conflaguration and Host Duplicitous.
Everything else people are suggesting is an over correction. Based on this tournament.
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Yeah, literally the only thing that this tournament reveals should be addressed is Changehost, and probably Host Duplicitous.
Everything else is just a knee-****** reaction at this time.
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1 hour ago, Maddpainting said:
A DoT wizard has the StD keyword so can cast it with that.
I really don’t see a problem with it. You have a limited selection of wizards to cast it and you need to end it within 18” of the Lord of Change to dispel it for it to be worth using. So it’s a 530 point tax to bring in a model that can’t hold an objective and you probably won’t be casting all game.
If it goes to “only StD” units we could just ally them in anyway.
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8 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:
Do any of those armies have a 100 wound unit that can teleport, auto-charge, and lock you in combat, though?
No but any problems with Changehost is fixable by making the battalion cost 1700 points. Absolutely no need to visit any other mechanics. Especially not a core mechanic that otherwise got an absolutely massive nerf.
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5 minutes ago, Forrix said:
It helps keep the horrors alive and feels counter-intuitive (at least to me) so its a way of dialing things back without wrecking the unit or book. It also makes the "Just kill the heroes" advice actually effective if you can pull it off (most Tzeentch heroes are some of the squishiest in the game). Battleshock immunity on hordes is a pretty strong mechanic, both of those examples are 60% or higher win rate armies.
Gloomspite Gitz and Cities can do it through massive CP generation. Mawtribes can do it through Bully. Slaves can do it with Undivided mark. I can probably go on.
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43 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:
I play Tzeentch. I don't think that using a single DD of any value was intended to completely stop all battleshock tests - if it was then it's just another case of playtesting/ruleswriting failing miserably. Yes they are being spent faster than before, but you don't HAVE to use them on every early casting or charge roll - that's the cost of guaranteeing success... it's a finite resource. Not to mention with something casting Glimpse every turn you get another one regardless of what is rolled, where before it was only a 1 or 6.
In short, if they go quick it's because you're using them to guarantee casts/charges/etc in a game built on chance - that's a price I will gladly pay in the early turns.
Since Battleshock rolls were always at least the second most common use of them(Cast, Battleshock, Unbind and Charge), and since the most common use of Battleshock rolls was to completely eliminate battleshock losses through the Pink Horrors’ Icon; I think if what you said were the case it would not be an exaggeration to say it’s probably the single most egregious oversight in the game’s history. I’m 70/100 confident that it is working as intended and is in fact the primary intention of the rule.
My math wasn’t using it on every cast or charge, it was on using it on only using 2 2d6 rolls the entire game, and your opponent playing competently enough to burn you out of the rest of them.
They won’t last you half the game on a good opponent unless you use them exclusively on Battleshock rolls.
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11 minutes ago, NJohansson said:
Skyfires have 16 inch move, 4 wounds, good melee potential and can do mortal wounds on a 6. Flamers were absolutely unplayable in the last book - so let’s not make them so again.
It’s also a bad assumption that 3d3 is adequate damage at 200 points. Even with that you need to get Skyfires into melee at some point to get their points worth.
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50 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:
2. 100% need change the current DD / Battleshock roll interaction; that is clearly overpowerd on Horrors and just overbuffs an already strong faction ability.
I don’t mean to single you out specifically; but does everyone asking for this to be changed know that aside from this, Destiny Dice got a massive nerf; In addition they continue to be a transparently diminishing resource, and Tzeentch continues to generate command points very poorly? There are other factions out there where battleshock is much less of an issue than Tzeentch.
I believe people who don’t play Tzeentch vastly underestimate how quickly DD go. Turn 1; you spend 4; 2 on a cast, 2 on a charge. You’re already almost at half. If your opponent can hit 2 of your units each turn, you won’t have any left at the top of Turn 3. Maybe you can get 2 more from Glimpse the Future. Unlikely more than 1 from Secret Eater. In addition, Changehost uses at least 1 CP per turn for Beacon of Sorcery, so you may have 2 of those to spare throughout the game for Inspiring Presence. So unless that’s all you use them on, they won’t last half the game, and in fact, in the 5th turn there almost certainly be at least 1 unit of horrors wiped out from Battleshock.
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1 minute ago, Reezark_SP said:
Thanks bud I appreciate that! My lists that got lost in discussions are either not Tzeentch lists or I've since been playing them to the point where I don't really need advise on them.
HOWEVER! Since you're offering your help I'll share my Guild of Summoners list that I've been messing with. At the moment I think GoS best suits my current Tzeentch collection but personally I'm more excited to eventually run Eternal Conflagration/Changehost and Pyrofane Cult/Wytchfire Coven. once I get more Flamers and Acolytes.
I suppose this list is a little unconventional because I don't have Kairos Fateweaver and I'm not ready to get another $140 model but I do have 2 regular LoC which I think I can rely on having 1 on the first turn and both by the 3rd turn.
Curseling (General)
Prophet of the Ostensible
Glimpse the FutureThe Changeling
Treason of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman
Brimstone Familiar
Shield of Fate
The Blue Scribes
Tzeentch's Firestorm
Gaunt Summoner
Arcane Suggestion
Gaunt Summoner
Unchecked Mutation
Battleline:
Tzaangors x20
Kairic Acolytes x10
Kairic Acolytes x10
Other:
Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs x6
Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex
Obviously the Gaunt Summoners will each bring with them a unit of 10 Pink Horrors. Thats 13 spells on turn 1 I should be able to cast and then 17 from turn 2+ so I can expect to get those big birds out early and they will have Bolt of Change.
Changeling hangs with the foot Tzaangors and gives whatever they fight -1 to hit. The Tzaangor Shaman supports Tzaangors and Enlightened even further by giving them immunity to battleshock.
The Blue Scribes sit on top of the Balewind Vortex so he can cast his warscroll spell and give all my wizards rerolls to cast and still cast another spell, such as Tzeentch's Firestorm, an endless spell, or a spell that he's learned over the course of the game.
If anything I might drop the Curseling. I'll still have a decent chance at getting 9 fate points on turn 1 without him and then I'll have enough room for Gemenids, Purple Sun, and Pendulum, which might serve me better in the long run.Just remember Gaunts use a spell cast on the turn that they bring out horrors.
I like this list. I’ve been running Enlightened in all of my lists so far and have found them to still be excellent hammers that are well worth the points. My advice would be to try to support them with 2 - hit debuffs to make their Visions of the Past a much safer bet.
My criticism is generic to any list that brings at least one Gaunt; you are introducing an element of Alpha Strike vulnerability. I’d put them both behind your 20 unit of Tzaangors and run with your horrors to cover the board more quickly.
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42 minutes ago, Reezark_SP said:
Having 1+ printed in the battletome may be a shorthand way of saying the attack wounds on a 1+. This contradicts the core rule that says 1s always fail. If this isn't a contradiction then there is no reason for the authors to have printed it this way.
Also side note, I find it hilarious in this community one can ask for advise with a list and get zero responses for weeks/months but as soon as you post your thoughts about a rule oddity someone within minutes is ready to tell you about how you're wrong lol.List requests get lost pretty quickly in the traffic that comes with a new release. If you post it now I will advise to the best of my ability.
This would fall under “the most important rule clause”, in which case you should discuss it with your opponent. The reason I’ve seen it (nearly universally) interpreted as not auto-fail Protection is that the wound rolls fail on an unmodified 1. However a “1+” is not unmodified since the + necessarily informs that modifiers are involved. I agree it would be much better written as +1 to-wound with the appropriate adjustments to the damage tables though.
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Just take flamers out of the Changehost battalion and it turns from a 1 drop into a 4 drop and almost all the problems are solved. Any army that can get a 3 drop and fast chaff, or high threat range shooting can deal with flamers.
I’ve run the new horrors and they aren’t as broken as people make them seem. Don’t allow play by intent with their splits. Just always demand a measurement to see if they aren’t wholly within their Daemon hero and they fold pretty quickly. I hate how much time they add to the game though.
Daemonrift is only good with a LoC to eat it after you cast it. Otherwise choose priority to move it and you’ll probably kill all of Tzeentch’s other leaders. You also need Gaunt Summoners to cast them. Speaking of which...
Guant Summoners bring in a twofold vulnerability to Alpha Strikes. They can’t go in any battalions and their 50 wounds of Horrors are protected only by a 5-6 wound, 6+ save(conditionally better in some situations) and no mortal wound shrug model.
Destiny dice on Battleshock: now that we have to use 2 dice on 2d6 rolls our destiny dice will only last around the top of 3 unless we build for regeneration, in which case we may squeeze into the top of the 4th with a couple). OBR gets battleshock immunity all game(tangentially, Petrifex is straight up better than Locus). Which of these abilities is broken? Some factions can generate enough command points to make battleshock nearly irrelevant too. This ability is very strong but not any more broken than the above examples. You don’t see it if you concede early though.
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Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted · Edited by Sinfullyvannila
Scroll and Vulture are just their version of Musician and Banner, so it shouldn’t be any harder for you to remember them than pretty much every other battleline unit. and the Scroll/Vulcharch is actually pretty neat design. The scroll gives them +1 to unbind, which is really nice since that have a massive board unbind footprint compared to the cast majority of casters. The Vulcharc has a chance to deal a mortal wound IF that unbind doesn’t work or if you don’t want to unbind it so you can get the fate point. So the important thing with them is to remember that a big part of their role is magic denial/punishment.
Also, Tzaangors and Acolytes both got their active profiles cut to 3/2 since now they have to choose between the two standard weapon profiles instead of mixing both.