l1censetochill
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Posts posted by l1censetochill
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A bit late, but ready and eager to get hobbying again this month after all of December's holiday activities and travel!
The last couple months of contracts have helped me plow through a good chunk of my Stormcast backlog, so it's time to get down to business with one of the centerpiece models I've been waiting on. So for the month of January, all of my focus is gonna be on finishing a single model to the best of my ability:
Celestant-Prime
Even if I just finish that to my own satisfaction, I'll call it a win. It's a big, super-detailed model! However, if I finish early, I'll aim for the following:
Celestar Ballista with Crew
Chronomantic Cogs
Quicksilver Swords
Umbral SpellportalGood luck to everyone with your hobby goals this month, and for 2020 as a whole!
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On 12/3/2019 at 12:22 AM, l1censetochill said:
Well, I'm back for another month. Just got home after a long trip and jet lagged as hell, but still in one piece, and looking forward to getting back to hobbying after being away from home for a couple weeks.
It has the potential to be another short month due to Christmas travel, but I'll still plan on doing the following:
Knight-Heraldor
Astreia Solbright
Celestar Ballista + CrewI'll call finishing that list a win if I can manage it, as the Astreia model is very detailed and will probably take me a whole week. If I finish early, I'll go for bonus points by painting an Endless Spell or two. I'll also try and build my next 3 Evocators on Dracolines.
Good luck to everyone else on meeting their goals as well!
Posting a few days late on this one, as travel and family stuff around the holidays made it tough to update here - however, I did manage to finish up my original contract for December!
I did substitute a unit of Vanguard-Raptors for the Celestar Ballista, as they fit better into my plans for an Escalation League I'm participating in. It's the same number of models, though, so we calls it even.
The regular Stormcast models on foot have become pretty routine at this point, so not to much to comment on there. I wasn't completely satisfied with how my Astreia Solbright turned out, as shading and highlighting the Dracoline's skin was trickier than I thought it would be. In retrospect, I should have watered the shade down significantly. However, the high contrast effect it created does make for an interesting look, and I'm perfectly fine with using it on the tabletop alongside my existing unit of Evocators.
Apologies for the late post, looking forward to more productive hobbying this month!
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1 hour ago, ledha said:
To have the +6" range bonus, the restriction is not moving in the movement phase of this turn.
The movement phase didn't happened yet, so it's logical you can't have the bonus, since you have zero way to fulfill its conditions
I wouldn't argue with you that it's the correct way to implement the rules as they're written - no movement phase, so no way to fulfill the condition. On that we agree.
I do think, however, that the Longshot rules themselves are poorly written and overly restrictive compared to newer iterations of the same idea, and should have been changed to read similarly to how things are now being written. In our book, it's "add 6" to the range of the unit's weapons if it didn't make a move in the movement phase of the same turn." In Cities of Sigmar, lots of their ranged units have bonus abilities that involve not moving - like the Irondrake's Blaze Away, which just gives a bonus if the unit "has not made a move in the same turn." Handgunners, Eternal Guard, etc. also have similar wording.
It's like the "re-roll failed saves" instead of "re-roll saves" issue. It gives the more recent books an even bigger edge over older ones because their rules are written to be more flexible. If you change the Longshot rules to "+6" range if the unit hasn't made a move in the same turn," it simplifies it and removes the unnecessary confusion and complication from having to shoot the same weapons at two different ranges in the same turn. And if they're scared to go that way because it could be a balance issue with the Anvils command ability... plenty of tournaments were already allowing the 30" shots in the hero phase, and Stormcast was still rocking a 45% win rate. Unless the points get lowered to the point that a Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber battalion can be played in a 2k list, I don't think improving our rules a little bit is going to ruin the delicate balance of the metagame.
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30 minutes ago, Styr said:
Hello
i just finish building evocators on drakes from new battleforce box , and i fall in love to those models . Is there any playable list to field them ?
I'm a big fan of the Dracoline models as well, and while armies including them generally aren't viewed as particularly competitive there are a few lists floating around that seem like they're at least fun to play. I'm currently building toward the following:
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Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
Units
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104*****
The Celestial Vindicators allegiance ability (re-roll 1s to hit on the charge) and command ability (give a unit +1 attack), when combined with the Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline's command ability (+1 attack for Dracoline mounts) and Pride Leader trait (+1 to hit for Dracoline mounts) can turn the Dracolines into absolute murder machines... and at that price, they'd better be.
While I haven't played the list yet, I'm sure it ain't perfect. It'll still struggle on objectives due to low model count, the Dracolines will still probably get tied up by chaff at the worst times (though hopefully the Ballistas can whittle down some units), and it still probably can't compete against the top tier armies out there. But it looks like a pretty fun list to play, and you can be reasonably certain that once or twice per game your Dracolines will make the charge and completely mulch an enemy unit, which is always a good time.
If you end up going with a similar list, I'd love to hear how it performs! I'm still 3 Dracolines away from being able to run it, but I'm excited to get it on the table.
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32 minutes ago, Maturin said:
I did, using Hallowheart ;). Against an IJ army, as a SCE you got to screen hard, using aetherwings or you're screwed. We've got nothing able to withstand a T1 charge of 6 or more GG and a Maw Crusha.
Just out of curiosity, what does your Hallowheart list look like? I've been considering branching into it from SCE, but I'm not 100% sure on where to start (outside of probably including a Lord-Arcanum and Sequitors in the list to fill points until I can get enough models painted).
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8 minutes ago, Mjolnertf said:
I just played a game against the new ironjawz and they got over me like never before, I mean ... are we really so bad at the current meta? That +1 damage is deadly against an army that saves 4+ on average and that their units are 10 miniatures (us).
the damage 2 of the crossbows it does? kill 12 orcs? congratulations ... now you will have in your mouth 6 gruntas or 12 brutes ...Has anyone survived against things like this (ironjawz or ogres)?
I haven't played against either of those armies (though I expect I'll be playing against ogres in the very near future), but my take is pretty much the same as what Maturin said - outside of very specific lists (specifically Anvilstrike) you're going to have a hard time dealing with those types of fighty armies. None of our anvils can hold up against a serious charge from Ironjawz or Ogres, and outside of a couple specific units (buffed Evocators, mainly) our melee options are either slow, pillow-fisted, or both.
Against those armies, I think we've basically only got two options - either go full Anvilstrike and screen with Aetherwings to try and weather the early storm, or load up on Ballistas and an Ordinator for an airstrike and hope you spike your rolls against their key units. Neither option sounds particularly fun, but it's pretty much the only way we stand a chance from what I can tell.
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1 hour ago, Kramer said:
Are you meant to keep building on the lists? Or can you switch it up?
Otherwise make your choices on what you want to field in bigger games I suppose.We're allowed to switch them up whenever points increase. So at present, it's mostly just about building the best list I've got available at 500, then 750, then 1000... and so on.
Though honestly, in going from 500 to 750, it does seem pretty clean to just add on 5 Sequitors and a Lord-Castellant for exactly 250 points. Haven't decided that for sure yet, but I'm considering it at least. Gotta make a final decision on the first 500 first!
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16 minutes ago, Carsomyr said:
Wouldn't dropping the LA as your general make sequitors not battleline? How many do you need at 500? 2?
Per normal rules, yes, even at 500pts you need 2 battleline (Vanguard rules). In this escalation league, though, we're only required to take 1 batteline until we get to 1000 points, which gives a bit more flexibility in that regard.
So Knight-Incantor/Castellant + 2x5 Sequitors + 1x5 Liberators is a theoretical possibility for now. I'm just not sure if it'd be better than the Arcanum and a Ballista to deal some ranged wounds. I feel like there will be games where the Ballista does nothing, but there will also be some where I'll get a few good rolls and wipe an important unit off the table with it. Only one way to find out, right?
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So one of my local stores is starting an escalation league next week, and I've decided to get in on it as a chance to get in some games and motivate myself to keep painting my backlog. Eventually I'm planning on building into a Celestial Vindicators list with a bunch of Dracolines, but for now we're starting at 500 points and I've got to keep the list pretty lean. At the moment, this is what I'm planning on starting with at 500:
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum (160)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Total: 500 / 500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 33*****
I realize there probably isn't much to talk about playing at such a low point total, but I'd nevertheless be interested in hearing input or advice from anyone who has experience playing Stormcast at lower point totals (I've only played 2k). At present we're only required to take one battleline unit, so I could take out either the Sequitors or Liberators to make room for something else, but... the points available are just so slim, I'm not sure what else I'd even be able to fit in there.
I had also considered replacing the Lord-Arcanum with a Knight-Incantor (or even a Lord-Castellant), allowing me to drop the ballista and add another squad of Sequitors. The extra bodies would certainly be welcome, but I'm concerned I'll feel a bit naked without any ranged support. The Lord-Arcanum's -1 to hit spell, Prime Electrics, and Cycle of the Storm also all feel like they'd be a bit more impactful in a lower point game. Any thoughts?
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Well, I'm back for another month. Just got home after a long trip and jet lagged as hell, but still in one piece, and looking forward to getting back to hobbying after being away from home for a couple weeks.
It has the potential to be another short month due to Christmas travel, but I'll still plan on doing the following:
Knight-Heraldor
Astreia Solbright
Celestar Ballista + CrewI'll call finishing that list a win if I can manage it, as the Astreia model is very detailed and will probably take me a whole week. If I finish early, I'll go for bonus points by painting an Endless Spell or two. I'll also try and build my next 3 Evocators on Dracolines.
Good luck to everyone else on meeting their goals as well!
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On 10/29/2019 at 10:43 PM, l1censetochill said:
My first time posting in one of these, but I figure why not? Now that my first 2k points are done, I could use some extra motivation to keep hobbying.
I've got an unfortunate amount of travel happening in November, so that will definitely slow my painting down quite a bit. However...
For the month, my pledge is to finish painting at least one squad of Liberators and my Lord-Relictor. I'll also get a head start on priming (won't be able to do it outdoors for much longer here!). So I'll build my second squad of Liberators , another Celestar Ballista + crew, Astreia Solbright, and at least 3 endless spell models and get them primed by the end of the month so I can paint them when I'm back.
Plans might change depending on whether or not I end up acquiring additional models or not. We'll see. I think that's enough to be starting with, though!
Finished up my contract today - might seem early, but I'm leaving the country in 2 days and will be gone until December, so I was actually cutting it close! I posted the Relictor previously, here he is alongside my finished squad of Liberators. I used the fantastic Berek the Indomitable model for the Prime w/ Grandhammer, and was especially happy with how he turned out.
Overall, glad I signed on for this. Given how little time I had to paint this month, the contract helped to keep me focused. And I'm all primed to start next month when I get back, too!
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On 10/29/2019 at 10:43 PM, l1censetochill said:
My first time posting in one of these, but I figure why not? Now that my first 2k points are done, I could use some extra motivation to keep hobbying.
I've got an unfortunate amount of travel happening in November, so that will definitely slow my painting down quite a bit. However...
For the month, my pledge is to finish painting at least one squad of Liberators and my Lord-Relictor. I'll also get a head start on priming (won't be able to do it outdoors for much longer here!). So I'll build my second squad of Liberators , another Celestar Ballista + crew, Astreia Solbright, and at least 3 endless spell models and get them primed by the end of the month so I can paint them when I'm back.
Plans might change depending on whether or not I end up acquiring additional models or not. We'll see. I think that's enough to be starting with, though!
After getting the first 3 Liberators painted, I decided to shift focus to the hero model of the month. Given the amount of detail involved, I was pretty happy with how the Lord-Relictor turned out. Should be on track to finish the goal, assuming it ever warms up enough to finish priming!
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9 hours ago, Corcaedus said:
I think an army wide 3+ save is not necessary, because it would come with a point increase that we really don't need as of now.
Some of our elite infantry units deserves it (seriously, how comes paladins don't have a 3+ save ?
Another thing that is bothering (to me at least), is that we are nearly defenseless against all these fight first/fight twice/fight last shenanigans. Someone earlier on the thread said that it a left the feeling that our battletome was not written by the same people who wrote Slaanesh and co.
And the point cost of some units. How come the Celestant Prime costs nearly as much as some of the biggest character out there, can hit like a truck, but dies to a stiff breeze ? I can't ask for a huge buff, but he's supposed to have been forged by Sigmar to be his ultimate creation... and it falls short to expectations. In the same way, our troops needs the same rule the Ogors have : 1 miniatures count as two when it comes to objectives.
But as of now, this is all wishlisting.
I'm assuming the thinking is that just giving an army-wide 3+ save, or else giving one Stormhost a +1 blanket save like the Bonereapers have, but leaving the points the same, would be sufficient to fix some of our biggest problems. And I agree with that - 4+ saves are everywhere now. But if the points go up as well, then yeah, we're still in trouble. Just putting 3+ saves on Paladins would be a welcome change, though. Might not make enough of a difference to make them truly competitive, but you'd probably be tempted to take them in some lists if their points stayed the same.
While we're at it, they really need to update our Warscrolls to allow us to re-roll all hits/wounds/saves instead of re-rolling failed hits/wounds/saves. Not only because it makes us weaker to rend than a lot of other armies, but purely as a quality of life improvement. It's just so dumb and tiresome to have to explain to newer/more casual players that "oh, so modifiers apply after the roll, so actually even though you can re-roll your failed saves, you can't re-roll that failed save, because it's only a failure due my -1 Rend." The rule is stupid to begin with, in addition to making everyone look at you like you're that guy.
I've actually given a good deal of thought to how our rules could be changed to help us on objectives, and while I think the Ogor ability is a good one, I'm against copy-pasting it on principle. Armies should have distinct identities. I had thought that maybe, given our lore, the following allegiance ability would serve the same purpose and be flavorful:
To The Last Man: When determining who controls an objective, objectives which are currently held by a Stormcast army cannot change hands as long as there are any Stormcast models from that army within 6" of the objective.
Not 100% sure on the wording, but basically when you take an objective, that objective is yours until every model in the unit(s) holding it is wiped out. Doesn't help you take objectives your opponent is holding, but once you've got one you're a pain in the ass to take off. It mitigates some of the weaknesses caused by being elite, and I feel like it works with the big, tanky defenders of the Realms thing we've got going on. It might be too powerful, though, especially when paired with our deepstrikes... at the very least, it would force opponents to play differently against us. Thoughts?
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5 minutes ago, davorko75 said:
@l1censetochill Thank you for the welcome and the input!
I am forgetting that you don't have to take a stormhost. And your list is a great place to start and work my way from there.
Its a shame that the Gryph charger can't fit. Would you maybe consider droping a Relictor for the Gryph Charger and maybe 5 x judicators instead of 5 x Sequitors?
It's a fair question, one that I toyed with a bit when tinkering with the list. I ultimately decided that the Relictor is too important - outside of our deepstrikes (and cavalry options, but you don't have those available) we have some serious mobility issues, and I think being able to teleport a unit onto a lightly-defended back objective is just too valuable.
But your idea isn't bad either. The Gryph Charger's command abilities are much better for the list, Ride the Winds pairs very well with Staunch Defender (helps get your general next to the important units), and having 5 Judicators instead of 5 Sequitors to chip in ranged damage alongside the Ballistas could be useful. You probably can't go wrong either way. Good luck!
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1 hour ago, davorko75 said:
I'm new to SCE and AoS in general and would like to ask you guys a few questions.
There will be a league in my FLGS - Vanguard rules 1500 pts and I need advice on a few things:
- Is 2 ballista with ordinator worth it in 1500 pts?
- Stormhosts - they all seem kinda underwhelming so I am unsure what is a good all around pick (Or if there is one that has synergy with sacroscanct units as most of my units are sacrosanct)
- Prosecutors with javelins and castigators - love the look of these units, but again they feel really underwhelming performance wise - do they have a use?
Also any general tips or advice is appreciated.
And if you have any list recommendations feel free to lay it on me.
(units I own: 25 x Sequitors, 5 x Evocators, 5 x Judicators, 3 x Ballista, 3 x Prosecutor, 6 x Castigator, Lord Arcanum on Gryphcharger, Relictor, Ordinator, Incantor, Arcanum on foot, Castellant. Might be willing to splurge on some more if there is a good reason to)
Thanks in advance.
Welcome to the forum! While I'm also somewhat new, hopefully I can offer some helpful pointers:
- In a 1500 point list, I think most would tell you that 3 Ballistas are better than 2 Ballistas and an Ordinator... but as you're playing Vanguard and can only take 2 War Machines, I think you could probably get away with the latter. Your opponent is also playing fewer/smaller units, so you won't need quite as much firepower to make a solid dent in their good target units.
- Unless you have a very compelling reason to take a Stormhost (Gavriel Sureheart or a big unit of Longstrikes), it's often best to just take the generic Stormcast Eternals allegiance and give your general Staunch Defender. Staunch Defender tends to pair especially well with Sequitors, as 3+ saves (2+ with a Castellant) with re-rolls on a block of 10 Sequitors can make them very tanky indeed.
- Castigators are generally regarded as useless, unfortunately. I too like their looks, but their warscroll is just awful. Prosecutors may have a niche use as annoying objective grabbers, but usually our lists are just too tight on points to justify including them.
I threw together a quick list with the units you've got:
*****
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum (160)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
Lord-Castellant (120)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Lord-Relictor (100)
- Prayer: Translocation
Battleline
10 x Sequitors (260)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Units
5 x Evocators (220)
- 5x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
War Machines
Celestar Ballista (110)
Celestar Ballista (110)
Total: 1480 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 91*****
It was actually quite tough to get a list to 1500 points - felt like I was always going 10-20 over! I'd really like to get the Gryph Charger in there as general, but I just couldn't find the points. You'll still probably be too light on bodies to hold points in most battle plans, unfortunately, but that's the life we live playing Stormcast. I'm sure it's not optimal and would like to hear other peoples' takes, but it should be reasonably solid at least. Sacrosanct units are just too damn expensive!
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10 hours ago, Nizrah said:
What roster would you pick? I have incoming 1250 GT and i except only good and maxed rosters.
1.Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Leaders
Knight-Azyros (100)
Knight-Incantor (140)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Chain Lightning
Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
Units
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340)
10 x Evocators (440)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Quicksilver Swords (30)
Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 722.Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer
Leaders
Knight-Azyros (100)
- Artefact: Soulthief
Lord-Veritant (120)
- General
- Trait: Deathly Aura
- Prayer: Translocation
Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
Units
9 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (510)
5 x Evocators (220)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
3 x Aetherwings (50)
Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 76
I'd probably go with list #2. I'd expect the 3 extra Longstrikes and Aetherwings will be extremely helpful in every game, whereas the extra 5 Evocators in the first list may be helpful, but will be more limited in their ability to influence the game due to their lack of mobility once you've dropped them.
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6 minutes ago, TomParry84 said:
Thanks man - it was a tough tournament! I actually won vs cities (we did a quick turn 5 after the stream finished) and lost game 4 to a Seraphon list with 21 terradons in it, not much I could do unfortunately.
Game 1 v cities - minor win on total commitment
Game 2 v blades of Khorne - major win on scorched earth
Game 3 v Shootcast - major win on 3 places of arcane power
game 4 v seraphon - lost on total conquest
game 5 v seraphon - won on battle for the pass
Wow, good to know - when they cut away just before the end of round 4 and concluded "it's over, no way Tom can win this one," while tallying points, I was blinking and going, "wait... what? There's still a round to go and the Cities army is down to scraps - if he wins priority he could absolutely clutch this one out!"
Do you remember how turn 5 played out? Did you win priority?
Either way, thanks for the info, and congrats again on the finish!
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4 hours ago, TomParry84 said:
Went 4-1 at blood shed with this list last weekend:
Was such a fun tournament! I am looking at maybe swapping out the evocators and heraldor for a Prime, but not too sure this list can cope with losing the bodies...
Hey Tom - congratulations on the 4-1! I watched your game in round 1 (which I believe was your only loss, to a Cities list) on the Honest Wargamer stream and enjoyed it a lot. Any chance we could get a brief recap on what armies your opponents were running and how the games played out (or whatever you can remember)?
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2 hours ago, Maturin said:
No problem mate. Thanks for the link, that's an unusual list there! How do you think he plays that ?
Funnily enough, the event was streamed and that guy's match against a Tempest Eye list was the featured match in round 1! You can watch it here. I had it on while painting this weekend, so I can give a basic recap from what I remember:
It was Battle For the Pass, so triangular deployment and 4 objectives in a diamond.
- On turn 1, he drops the Comet, runs the Stardrake and uses his mortal wound shooting attack, and deepstrikes the Celestant-Prime for the scepter attack, all in the middle of the opponent's castle. He kills like all of the foot heroes (Cogsmith, Sorceress) alongside a bunch of Handgunners/Darkshards, and prevents the opponent from even attempting to cast Soulscream Bridge. At this point, the game is basically already over.
- He auto-charges the Prime into the artillery and destroys a Rocket Battery, then it immediately gets blown up by the two remaining Volley Guns.
- He deepstrikes the Decimators and tries to charge them into a block of Handgunners, but fails the charge. They get shot to pieces. Two eventually make it in, but accomplish nothing.
- Stormcast heroes take one middle objective, a Liberator squad takes the other. Most of the enemy army was turtled up in in their deployment zone expecting to get moved via Soulscream Bridge. The only Tempest Eye unit with mobility is the Freeguild General on Griffin.
- Stardrake + a Liberator squad eventually chew through all of the Handgunners alongside a bunch of mortal wounds from Drake shooting + Comet. Handgunner unit was so big it couldn't move and never got out of the deployment zone.
- Fulminators spend the whole game chasing around the Griffin. They eventually die, but help contest the objective in the SCE deployment zone for a couple turns to deny points.Hard to tell how the list usually plays, as this matchup was a weird one and the enemy army was basically screwed after their Sorceress died on turn 1. I'd venture to guess that the gameplan would stay pretty much the same, though: spam mortal wounds with the Stardrake and summoning/dispelling the Comet as often as possible, run and charge the Stardrake with the Heraldor to pin as many enemy units as possible early while the Liberators score points, deepstrike the Decimators into enemy hordes/chaff, and hold the Prime to charge and take out an important unit on turn 2-3 (obviously this time it made sense on turn 1). I'm a bit skeptical of the Decimators myself, especially after how bad they were in the first game - but obviously the list as a whole worked well enough, so more power to him!
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1 hour ago, Maturin said:
Where can I get those lists and read those reports please ? When I google Justice League GT all I get is a mercredes Amg + batman
Bah, sorry, it was the Justice Series GT (Autumn). The list is on tabletop.to, here. That's the easiest place to see finishes and lists from tournaments these days, though not every event uses them.
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41 minutes ago, Turragor said:
You have written what I intended to write without my bias towards large lizards and this is a much better discussion point as a result
So I was the only one who actually replied to your proposed lists with any concrete suggestions, which makes me feel like a lot of what you're saying is directed at my response. I'm not offended or anything by it, but I do think it's a chance to have a dialogue about it.
I read the edit to your above post (before you re-edited, when it was longer), and felt like I should point out - while I did post one list alteration that swapped in Concussors and Longstrikes for the Desolators and other stuff and made it basically a Shootcast list, the other one was pretty much the same exact core with a couple of changes: dropping the endless spells, Longstrikes and Aetherwings for two units of Hurricane Crossbows, which is decidedly off-meta and pretty true to the original list. And I felt I explained my rationale behind the choices pretty well, focusing mostly on overall army synergy and gameplanning, not focusing on what other people/lists are doing.
So at no point did I mean for my reply to say, "your lists suck, take PJetski's Shootcast list," but rather, "in giving it some thought, have you tried this?" with a fairly detailed explanation of how I felt the changes would benefit the list. Ending with the statement, "hope these list ideas help, or at least inspire some thought/discussion," along with a pretty straightforward admission that I wasn't totally confident that the lists I came up with were particularly good. I'm always totally open to the possibility that my changes were wrong and would make the list worse, but I think it's much more productive to talk about why/why not than to accuse people of (to paraphrase) only chasing meta lists and not being smart/experienced enough to understand your ideas.
I was honestly just hoping to provide constructive feedback, not to trash Stardrakes or hate on you for liking them. Indeed, I really want Stardrakes to be great so I can run one. But the alternative to offering a critique would be to simply reply, "hell yeah, praise Sigmar, take the Stardrake and the Celestant-Prime, so awesome!!1!😆" Which is just as blithe and unhelpful as saying "u shud just take Shootcast instead LOL." Neither of those outcomes are productive or desirable, in my opinion.
So apologies if my evaluation felt overly blunt or judgmental - it wasn't meant to be. But at the same time, I think your response is a bit of a mischaracterization of my post, as well. And if your response has been colored by past posts in the thread where you got dismissive feedback, I get that, and I'm sorry for it. But I just felt the need to point out that that isn't what I was doing at all, and I genuinely hope your list does well in your upcoming tournament!
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57 minutes ago, Turragor said:
The way you guys are trashing drakes (as in no 5 for 5 winning lists can have them - which is probably right) makes me want to take 2. I'll still win 3 of 5 at the next 100 person tournament.
How does one account for that?
Some lists you will meet just cannot handle stardrakes. I think that's where part of the cost comes from.
If they lower the price I'll paint my 3rd. I kinda land on the other side of the fence. In a vaccuum the drakes are overcosted but in AoS as a whole they aren't (by much).
This is something that you see in all discussions about competitive AoS (which is a result of balance issues, lets be honest) - ppl accelerate feedback towards the best list they have heard gets good results for each faction. Like propaganda of a kind.
X is the list to have. A -W and Y + Z are trash.
Most people, myself included, can only really comment on the quality of a list (or lack thereof) through theorycrafting and extrapolation. I even mentioned, that I think the Drake as a unit is actually pretty okay, it just doesn't work well in a Stormcast army because our allegiance abilities, artifacts, and other units don't compliment it well... and that in a Cities list, it might actually be really good. Your experiences having success with Stardrakes gives you a different perspective - if you're inclined to take 2, go for it! Hell, take the Drakesworn Temple battalion and use 3, if you think you can make it work - I'll be thrilled for you, and will hope for a tournament report when you get back.
But it has to be said, there are some statements people can make that are factual, not "propaganda" - for example, to say that lists with them usually top out at 3-2, isn't an opinion, it's factual, based on the data available in dozens of tournament reports over the past several months.
Now, I do think there's an interesting discussion to be had there about the nature of feedback loops and echo chambers within the competitive communities of niche games. As in, some Stormcast players do well with Shootcast, while other lists struggle for a while. Then the better SCE players, seeing the results, swap to Shootcast, and the numbers for Shootcast go up while the numbers for other lists drop even further. Then eventually, Shootcast is "the only good Stormcast list, and everything else sucks," which is obviously hyperbolic.
The numbers do suggest that Shootcast is our current top dog, but plenty of off-meta SCE lists, with good piloting and a bit of luck, could absolutely go 3-2 or even 4-1. I mean hell, someone (maybe you?) just went 3-2 with a Drakesworn Templar + Celestant-Prime list and finished 8th at the Justice League GT. Another person went 3-2 at Bloodshed in the Shire with an Anvils list with 20 Judicators (!?!?!?). There's absolutely still room for innovation and experimentation. So weirdly, while I still have a hard time envisioning a Stardrake + Dracoth list I'd take to a tournament over an Anvils list, I guess at the same time I kind of... agree with you? Go try it. Throw knuckleballs and catch people off-guard. Prove everyone wrong. I'd love to play a list with a Stardrake and not feel like I'm handicapping myself by doing it.
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3 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:
I already have one unit of dracoline. Is it interesting to have 2 more? same question for the rest of the content of the SCE (I have some units of each). Are they good in semi competitive competitive lists?
Sadly, probably not - if you line up the past few months of GTs (after the release of the General's Handbook, which nerfed SCE harder than basically anyone other than Legions of Nagash), Sacrosanct lists with Evocators and Sequitors just aren't good enough any more. The competitive melee armies are just better in every way - too many bodies, too much damage, abilities that let them fight first/force you to fight last, piling in and attacking twice... SCE has nothing to compare with what they can do.
There are some lists that build around a unit of 6 Dracolines with a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline in the Celestial Vindicators stormhost, using their big charge bonuses and extra attack command abilities to smash stuff. They usually top out around 2-3 wins in a tournament setting, but they're also something different from what all the competitive Stormcast lists are doing these days: packing in as much shooting as possible and trying to blow the opponent off the table. So if that sounds like it's up your alley, go for it.
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1 hour ago, Raffonerd said:
As long as the Bull counts 1 in objective scoring he is useless.
Single models that actually do things can be viable - see Terrorgheists, Warpseers, Zombie Dragons and Keepers. The problem is the Stardrake doesn't do anything.
59 minutes ago, Raffonerd said:Lib at 100 are great man!
10 Wounds ts 4, RR 1, 2 aa with a Great mace. Stormcast units are overefficient for their cost. They just lack in number.
The problem here is: how do you quantify mass, which is an unosservable dimension? Hard to cope with so. So, you will get always unbalances: SCE overpowered or SCE average/low average strong. Maybe they should change the "quantity discount", but i think that would increase SCE power to much.
I disagree - Liberators are mediocre at best, and would basically never be taken if they weren't the absolute minimum battleline tax we're forced to take in a legal list. Offensively, they're trash. They have the same number and quality of attacks as an 80 point Freeguild Guard unit, except the Guard get Rend 1 (outside of the special weapon, which brings up their offensive output from "nothing" to "a bit better than nothing"). Defensively they're reasonably durable thanks to the 4+ and re-roll, but a unit of 5 still dies to basically anything other armies can bring on the charge. And you're never taking a unit of more than 5, because their damage sucks and 40mm bases are gigantic, so you always struggle to get more than half your models within reach to attack. On that note, another thing I should have put in my post above was that Stormcast could be changed to have 2" reach across the board, which at least would offset the disadvantage of our stupid huge bases.
And I think you can absolutely quantify mass in AOS. Basically, more mass = bad. Bigger bases are always a disadvantage for infantry units because it hampers movement and positioning, you can't get as many bodies on objectives, you can't get enough enemy models within reach to maximize your attacks, and inversely it's much easier for enemy units to maximize against you and get more attacks. The only positive larger bases offer is that you can try to body block objectives, but that's basically only helpful when you're already on an objective and in position to shut down the opponent on the charge (so, maybe on turn 1). I suppose you could also argue bigger bases mean you can screen/daisy chain more effectively with them, but we're already way too low model count to employ that effectively the way a Gitz or LoN player can.
So yeah, Liberators should either get an extra attack, or go down to 80. And whoever at GW decided to make the max unit discount apply at THIRTY models for Liberators should be fired. Like, out of a cannon. Into the Thames.
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Help noob - Sacrosanct ranged 1k point
in Stormcast Eternals
Posted · Edited by l1censetochill
@NauticalSoup already pointed out a couple things I noticed in your lists - namely, too many artifacts and that ballistas don't pair well with the Anvils command ability, so I won't belabor those points. And for what it's worth, I'd go a step further: two ballistas with no Lord-Ordinator are going to be pretty underwhelming for their points in most games. You may occasionally spike a roll and wipe a unit, and it'll feel good, but they're very inconsistent. You pretty much need at least 3 ballistas with a Lord-Ordinator to make them worth taking in a list. In each case, I'd suggest dropping the ballistas for a Lord-Castellant and something else... maybe another unit of Sequitors, if you can squeeze them in.
I'd say that for the top list, Anvils would be a poor Stormhost to choose overall. You don't have any units worth shooting with for the cost of a CP, and the ability to pile in and attack in the hero phase probably won't be all that useful; in a lot of cases a unit of 3 Dracolines will either completely shred an enemy unit on the charge, or, if they hit something they can't kill in one turn, they'll get wiped out when the enemy attacks back. Meanwhile, 5 Sequitors just don't do enough damage to justify using the CP on them, even if they get charged and survive the first round of combat. And beyond the Command Ability, Anvils just doesn't give you much... re-rolling failed battleshock tests is meh, the Deathly Aura trait is mostly meaningless, and the Soulthief artifact is pure tax.
For a list like that, I'd honestly say the Celestial Vindicators stormhost would be quite a bit better - a CP to give your Dracolines +1 attack (to both the Evocators and the mounts) is much better for what they're trying to do. They've also got a trait that's actually somewhat helpful, letting you re-roll 1s to wound on the charge (and with Dracolines, you always want to be the one charging). And if you've already got a Lord-Arcanum on Dracoline, you might as well take it instead of the Gryph-Charger. Take the Pride Leader trait, and as long as the Evocators are in range they also get +1 to hit, which is quite solid.
If you want to aim for a Dracoline list at 1k, I'd probably aim for something like the following:
*****
Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Celestial Vindicators
Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (220)
- General
- Trait: Single-minded Fury
- Artefact: Stormrage Blade
- Spell: Celestial Blades
- Mount Trait: Pride Leader
Lord-Castellant (120)
Battleline
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (130)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 3x Stormsmite Greatmaces
Units
3 x Evocators on Dracolines (260)
- 2x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (140)
Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 54
*****
It's not perfect, but no 1k list is going to be perfect for us - we rely too much on synergy between our units and (expensive) heroes to bring us up to par with a lot of the units other armies can field unsupported, and in low-points games that's a big limitation. But it's serviceable, with a reasonable mix of solid anvil battleline (Sequitors), a fast hammer unit (Dracolines), and some annoying shooting that can deepstrike and blow up screens with sheer volume of shots (Hurricanes). It's not a list I've played, but it's actually what I'm planning to use when my Escalation League reaches 1k.
*****
Also, one last thing - @NauticalSoup, just so you know, the Aetherwing movement question was answered in the FAQ of the August 2019 White Dwarf, and you can indeed move them within 3" of enemy units to completely prevent charges. You're right, though, that it's an awesome and super powerful ability that is at least partially responsible for making Anvilstrike competitive.