Grdaat

Sorry, it's hard to tell when you can find people unironically doing that.

It's still a false equivalency though, asking questions like "how do ogors free themselves after they've been frozen and haven't eaten for a while?" Isn't the same as asking "what's the perfect refractory angle of realmstone?" One of those is a key component to how a faction works, the other is just random nonsense that has nothing to do with anything.

Sorry but I'm going to have to side with NinthMusketeer on this one, using real world examples as reference points is not a false equivalence fallacy. While I think their point was off base and ultimately wrong, it would've been harder for the to get the point across without using real world references, same goes for my argument against them where I also used real world references. If you want to see what an actual false equivalence looks like, Beliman offered a pretty good example right under your post: I accidentally took part of that out and can't combine them together again on mobile for some reason.

Gotcha, I won't ask for them then.

Which part do you think people didn't understand? I'm genuinely curious.

I'm saying that because the post came off like one of those Rick and Morty "you need a high IQ to understand it" kind of posts. Saying you cannot really appreciate the setting without reading supplemental material comes off to me as elitist.

You really shouldn't need to read supplemental material to get that kind of info, plenty of settings managed that sort of world building just fine without relying on other books, and their own supplements would introduce new elements.

How would she retake it by giving them food? That makes no sense. I thought he called himself undefeated because his current body was undefeated, so any loss never counted so long as he swapped bodies. At least according to Phil Kelly that's how it worked.

Because I know my store in relation to other stores, if it goes out of business I know there isn't another like it within my city so I'm more invested. I don't know this to be the case clfor anything in AoS, and since cities and nations get destroyed so often, it makes them all seem disposable and easily replaced. There's no reason to be invested in them if that's the case, it would be like learning one of 40 Starbucks on your street went out of business. Going to disagree there, GW's mini's are not cheap. Exactly, if nothing matters then how can you get invested? Except 40k has very critical planets we know to be unique, that isn't the case for AoS because it's intentionally poorly defined to give its writers as much freedom as possible.

I think you've misunderstood me, my point was and has always been that they've been retconned from one thing into another. Whether or not that's a good thing, or whether or not this is better is a different discussion entirely. I've been sticking to pointing out the retcon rather than if it's good or bad because people wanted to argue there wasn't a retcon. A bunch of people apparently, since pointing out that this is was a retcon kicked off a discussion that's making up a lot of the thread. A hell of an assumption. I could just as easily assume that they absorbed the energies of Azyr by living there, much like how they take in the energies of other realms and that Dracothion played no part in that. You cannot claim Dracothion changed them when you're guessing that's what happened. Hold up, I don't think you intended this but you just asked me to prove a negative. Writing that is like me asking you to prove you don't know something. You're looking for a passage that says "the Seraphon do not fade away when they're no longer in the presence of a Slann" when there's no reason anyone would write that, since no Battletome directly responds to earlier Battletomes. When I say they removed that, it's because they outright removed any mention of it. The closest we get is a mention on page 4 that if the Seraphon stay in one place for too long, the celestial energy within them fades away. No this does not mean they fade away, apparently it's part of them becoming Coalesced. No, but page 4 outright states that if they stay around they turn into Coalesced automatically. That's still reality as far as Azyr is concerned though, and how does that count as "long-lost"? You'd have a point if that bit wasn't told from the Seraphon's perspective. While Slann do call down their warriors, there are several other realmgates that are not used for combat and do not require a Slann, and one that is (the Ark of Sotek) which does not require a Slann to activate it. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said the book doesn't know what it was doing. I directly reference passages like this when I point out how part of the book pretends the Seraphon aren't flesh and blood, and the other part states they are. It makes the book seem very inconsistent when it talks about how Saurus Guard are replaced (how their born, how they get their gear, what happens after), but then says stuff like this. Basically it doesn't mesh, and I have the feeling this was worked on by multiple writers with a lack of communication. EDIT: missed the part where you said you wanted to stop, fair enough, I won't force it.

Except that didn't happen, Dracothion powered their ships back up, he did not fundamentally change them. Not anymore, the parts about them fading away without a Slann are gone. Except that's not how it's written. They formed out light from the water, not starlight in that instance. You're assuming a new meaning by ignoring what was originally written. You cannot return to reality if you never leave it. They were never "long-lost" in the new lore because they were always around, according to the new Battletome. Hang on... have you read the Battletome? They don't have different "Azyr bodies", their bodies are the same now, and they no longer fade away without the presence of a Slann, Starborne or not. They're the ones arguing they weren't really Daemons, but physical creatures, and they ignored that issue. I'm not expecting them to know that they'd lose the keyword, I'm pointing out that they didn't mention they had the keyword at the time and that they pretended it didn't matter.

Explain how the living Seraphon are a long-lost race when they were just in stasis, and explain why they used to fade away when a Slann wasn't around, even though their realmgates need a Slann to operate them. Then they're not Daemons, which is the point. And it's often not. In this case there's too many times where the lore is contradictory unless you assume what's written doesn't mean what it says, but then that's still you changing the original meaning.

Anyone can use realmgates, they're very different to Chaos Rifts in that regard. Except the new book explicitly states that Seraphon are transported mortals, creatures of flesh and blood who move from one location to another. They live, they die, and the Seraphon need to wait for new ones to be born. The first Battletome also showed how Seraphon who didn't have a Slann in proximity to them would fade away and disappear, so they used to work almost exactly like Daemons. Hold up, because you don't get to go from "created and remembered into being from magic by the Slann" to "they were always flesh and blood" without retconning it. That's not a clearer idea, it's a straight up rewrite. Except this is exactly how the Grand Alliance book and old Seraphon Battletome stated the worked. Again, that's exactly how they used to be, which is why people used it. Except you'd still have them being teleported from a starship rather than created, and so you could conceivably run out of troops or be unable to win a war of attrition against something like Daemons or Undead. I find it hard to look at as progress, to me it's more of a second draft considering how much they had to rewrite or add in. EDIT: Also see my post above for how the Seraphon further differed from their current state. Can't delete this bit on mobile for some reason, weird.

The part that said they were flesh and blood? Because that's new. Suffused with those energies is not the same as being made of those energies. The Drakfoot for example are suffused with Aqshy, but they're still flesh and blood Bonesplitters. It's not a vagueness, they spell it out in the battletomes that they are physically born and use technology to teleport. In other words, they're not rejected by the realms. How? They're not hollow, they're the same size as a person and are thick through and through. What kind of suit of armour is a solid block you can't wear? Except they've fought the Morghast before and so they know what these things share a resemblance to. Supposedly anyway. It altered the realm and created the Nighthaunt although I've yet to really see Nagash do something he couldn't do before. That's more a result of the Necroquake than a jump in his own power, not to mention any boost he gets from the Nadir is temporary which is why he keeps going back there. Not really, if his plan didn't get messed up he'd be way more powerful, he just got lucky that the outcome fell in his favour. That's all well and good, right up until you remember bits like the Slann hiding their Seraphon inside stuff like puddles because they stored the essence of them there and manifested them out of the puddles, not the sky, when it was time to attack. It also doesn't explain this passage from Grand Alliance: Order "From cords of glittering celestial energy they summon forth the Seraphon, a long-lost race returned to reality by the power of the Starmasters." In the new lore they're not a long-lost race, and they don't return to reality because they never left it. On the same page they're described to be "forged from celestial energy" which is no longer the case. The Redditor also doesn't explain why they used to have the Daemon keyword even though they're no longer Daemons. You can also find passages in the original Seraphon Battletome where a Slann was slain and the Warriors they created literally fade away after time has passed. Finally, I'm going to quote the old Battletome directly here when it talks about where the Seraphon come from: "all that is known for sure is that they do not appear without the presence of the Slann. From the gestalt memory of these ancient seers are the Seraphon given shape." So in short, the fans are not to be blamed for thinking the Slann remember the Seraphon into being, the old Battletome outright states this is what happened, and shows that they could not exist without the presence of a Slann. They also still had the Daemon keyword in this Battletome.

This is what I was getting at when I said the book never says what "true physicality" is. What do you think they cannot do before becoming Coalesced that they can do after? Also where in that paragraph does it say they're rejected? In the same page it says their magic mixes with the realm their in, which is the opposite of rejecting them. It doesn't say they get replaced, it says they mix. That would make sense if these bits weren't separated by an entire chapter's worth of pages. To me it seems like it was written by different writers who forgot to make sure they were writing the same thing. Skeletons aren't always animated even in Shyish. Also where are you getting that the Bonereapers looked like bone armour and not bone people? It's a pretty important bit of how they invade though. If you say something was buried under the cities they invade an immediate question is how they did not notice them. I get that, my point is that at the rate Archaon went through Katakros' forces, he would not have the time needed to get a replacement body and sit in a room sending out different orders and organizing his armies in a comparative lull. Even then, there's no way any reinforcements would hold out longer than the most elite troops under the most elite commanders in his army. That's why I said it makes it look like Archaon gave up. And why wouldn't Archaon tear right through it like he did the main force? And as far as we know, Be'lakor wasn't with Archaon at the time either. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Nagash was "in ascension" when Archaon destroyed his body, unless you mean something else by that. And Chaos has also grown stronger, as we've seen by certain pieces like Slaanesh's speech on how it's being fed despite its captivity. Everyone's growing in power and not just Nagash's forces. Lore A) Seraphon are conjured into being from a Slann's memory. Lore B) Seraphon are Lizardmen from the old world, held in stasis and/or born through spawning pools (just like they used to be) and transported to where the Slann need them by miniature realmgates they use to teleport. I'm sorry, but I'm calling BS if you're going to try and say that these are the same and not a retcon. You don't blend lore together by fundamentally changing its core aspect. Take this for example: "the current tome is clarifying the Azyr forms-" They no longer have "Azyr forms" because it turns out they were always flesh and blood beings. Except they're stated to still have physical forms aboard their starships, not just after they're teleported down through their translocators. Which part of the battletome makes you think they haven't dropped the idea of them being "Azyr beings"? EDIT: I'm not talking about them having Azyr magic in their bodies, that much is obvious, I'm talking about them being formed on the fly, because all of that's gone. We see how far they've departed from that in the Temple Guard section. You keep acting as if they're not fully physical regardless of where they are, so could you point to me the parts of the battletome that gave you that impression, or are you getting most of your information from Lexicanum? Not to belittle that site, but it's not going to be the same as reading the source material yourself, which is why I'm asking specifically for references to the battletome.

That's a lot of assumptions for something we don't know about, which is why I'm asking questions. Until we know more, it's just poorly defined and assuming the answer does not help it be properly defined in the setting.

So you highlight a big difference between them and Daemons and think that's evidence that they're the same? Where's it say their nature is rejected by other realms? The book says their nature mixes with other realms, which changes them into Coalesced, it says nothing about them being rejected. Except the first description says he thought he could, the second description says he thought he couldn't. In the first description he only took the fight against Sigmar because he thought he could kill him, that's it. In the second description he was forced to fight him and thought he couldn't kill him. As I said, these are contradictory. Again, you mean to tell me that Skaven have never seen an inanimate skeleton suddenly start to move? Again, he should not have been able to do that because Archaon's forces would've reached the newly built fortress immediately after. Even if he sent out more forces, which I'm assuming he pulled from thin air since they were nowhere to be seen before, there's no reason to believe they'd have lasted longer than Katakros' elite. He already did it several times, why is it suddenly impossible for him to do it again? Then can you list the page number? I already went through this in earlier posts and explained in detail why it's no longer a thing. I also highlighted several parts where the book outright states that was never a thing.

A good theory, a shame I can't find any lore supporting it.

Let me help you: Page 4, under Reptilian Majesty: "Using the translocation portals found within their arcane vessels, these beings strike precisely and without mercy." Page 12, under Temple Cities: "Even the Starborne have been known to send these gleaming golden pyramids through translocation portals, to morph areas of the material plane in line with their interpretation of the Great Plan." Page 13, same section: "Throughout the temple-cities are translocation gateways, miniature and localised Realmgates constructed through the arcane knowledge of the slann." Page 19, the Thunder Lizard: "The constellation’s skink priesthood has become adept at introducing minute quantities of refined Chamonite – transporting caches of the realmstone across the aetheric void through the translocation technology found within their ziggurats – to the incubation machines of their temple-cities’ hatcheries." Page 35, under Bastilodons: "More mysterious, but no less deadly, are the Arks of Sotek. Each of these strange devices is in fact a Realmgate in miniature, connected to the deep serpent-pits that are found throughout Seraphon temples and heave with reptilian life. When an Ark is activated many of these venomous snakes will be transported to the battlefield." I could list more examples if you need me to. Then that would also apply to vampires in the setting, considering how one particular sect of them travel. The problem is the book outright states this is not the case.

Daemons are not spawned from spawning pools and they don't need teleportation devices aboard starships to move from one location to the other whereas it's explicitly stated the Seraphon do. Daemons might also bleed but they're not "fundamentally flesh and blood".

No, the book is very clearly saying he thought he could kill Sigmar, and that he thought he couldn't kill Sigmar in the same battle. It says nothing about the wider conflict. No they're not, they're outright stated to come out of spawning pools and the book makes it clear that they're only beamed down by the Slann, not formed by them. I go into this a bit more in my reply right before this one. Except as I just stated, they're outright stated to come from spawning pools. They don't get manifested like Daemons do. Skaven never deal with traps? They've never seen an inanimate skeleton suddenly start to move? I'm sorry but that's ridiculous, not every body in Shyish is animated. So how exactly did the Skaven never notice and never record that every single city has a tomb beneath it? How exactly have they never attacked from these tombs when they'd make for ideal entry points, seeing as how the undead within had to leave? How has nobody found these during conflict with the Skaven, seeing as how fortifying their cities from attacks below would be a major point in defending them? Sorry but that's just flat out wrong. His garrison was near collapse, his army was not. The Nighthaunt were routed by Be'lakor, and Archaon's army had already crushed the Bonereaper main force while losing comparatively little. Why does he need time when he crushed the main opposition and could just steamroll right on through? You can't find it there because it's no longer a thing. The intent of adding the Coalesced might have been to change the Seraphon, but in practice it doesn't because they work the same regardless of whether or not they're made on their ships, or made on the ground. The only real difference is ground Seraphon have tougher hides and leave corpses, which Starborne don't leave bodies and have weaker hides. As I pointed out in my reply above, the book explicitly dismisses the idea that the Seraphon troops are created by the Slann when it talks about Astrolith Bearers.

The problem there is they still outright state "Seraphon are fundamentally creatures of flesh and blood" which immediately kills the concept of them being Daemons outright. Them having magic in their bodies doesn't change the fact that they are still flesh and blood, and Daemons are not. The reason they get a conjuration rule is because of how the rules themselves work (I'll get into it in just a second). They are also still stated to move through their "translocation portals" and that instead of being conjured, they are summoned from one location into another, as you post here with the Slann. Again, that's very different to them being Daemons, and the paragraphs you cite explicitly state that people who thought the Slann were creating their soldiers or summoning them into being were wrong. The following paragraph is just a mess: "The Starborne can interact with the tangible world, but their deep connection to Azyr prevents them from achieving true physicality. As the centuries have passed however, some Seraphon temple-fleets have descended from Azyr and established permanent settlements in the Mortal Realms. As a Seraphon lingers within a realm, their inherent Azyrite nature mixes with the magical energy that forms that realmsphere. Just as the different winds of magic grew concentrated enough over time to take on physical form as the realms themselves, the Starborne will eventually gain true permanence." As I said before, this pretends as if the old lore was intact when it is not, and so it doesn't make sense. If the Seraphon are flesh and blood creatures, then how exactly don't they have "true physicality"? Why don't they have "true permanence"? If those terms aren't supposed to be used to refer to flesh and blood creatures, what do they refer to? Under Temple Cities (page 12) it says they can gain "physical permanence" by staying in one place, except they're already physical beings now so this doesn't make sense either. Under page 24 it talks again about how they can eventually take "physical form" even though they've now never lost their physical forms, and it says the same thing on page 31 in regards to animals like Razordons. In case you still think that the Seraphon are still somehow made on the spot, let's look at their conjuration rule: " The slann leaders of the Starborne can call forth armies of Seraphon from their temple-ships in the blink of an eye." So there we go, they don't make them and apparently never have, they just beam them down. Let's also look at their Lord of Space and Time ability: " Slann temple-ships are able to transport themselves and Starborne warriors any distance in an instant." So once again it's the effect of their ships and their transporters. Even before then though, we have this passage: "Astroliths are particularly common amongst the armies of the Starborne. The process through which a slann ‘conjures’ his warriors into existence – in reality, drawing them forth from a temple-ship" So the book is even putting air-quotes around the idea the Slann "conjure" their soldiers. There's also a lot of mentions throughout the book about the Seraphon spawning pools and how they're formed to begin with. This doesn't change once they settle on the ground either, the only thing that does change is whether they're on a ship or not when they crawl out of their spawning pool.

They were legal for matched play, even though they were introduced outside that section. They even had specific mentions for how you spent your points on them (which wouldn't matter if they were narrative only).

So Katakros was both ordered to fight Sigmar, and chose to fight Sigmar on his own? He both thought he could win and thought he couldn't win at the same time? This wasn't a war against Sigmar, it's two separate accounts of the same single battle and they're contradictory. That would make sense if it implied that, which it didn't. Them being conjured was retconned out, instead they're now beamed down from their ships. In other words, they aren't implying that at all. Except that the star daemon concept is gone because that's no longer a thing, and retcons aren't growth. So why was it never mentioned until this point? You're telling me they did not care, despite knowing about the undead already? You're acting as if they're too stupid to recognize undead creatures when they routinely fight them, even before the current age the setting's in. Also going "By the way, these were here the whole time" is definitely a retcon. Except the book ends with Katakros's forces being destroyed (along with Plunder being banished), him losing his gear, and Archaon and his forces were still charging through. Katakros should not have had the time to reappear in his new fortress and be able to organize and fight Archaon's forces off because Archaon would've reached it immediately after and torn right through it. The only way it makes sense for that not to happen is if Archaon just gave up, same with Be'lakor. Saying they're handwaving away Archaon's counterattack to allow for an ongoing narrative is just lazy. It means that they're ignoring the final battle of the book and what happened in it. That ending should have been a death knell for the war, but they're pretending it's not which is exactly what I was talking about earlier.

I can think of two examples right off the top of my head. The first is in the Ossiarch Bonereapers book, where it can't make up its mind on whether or not Katakros chose to fight Sigmar thinking he could win, or if he was ordered to fight him while knowing he'd lose. Both are inside the Battletome and they contradict one another. The second is the one you mention, and it's a direct retcons. In the newer Seraphon book, GW fully retconned them from being beings created as needed by the Slann, to being kept in stasis aboard starships and beamed down as needed, even outright stating they are (and therefore always were) flesh and blood. Despite changing them back to being flesh and blood the book talks about how the Coalesced are the ones who achieved "true physicality", as if the old lore was still in effect. Even outside that we have bits like the Bonereaper prototypes apparently going unnoticed underneath cities, despite the Skaven specializing in burrowing up underneath said cities, we have books ending on cliffhangers that should be death knells for the war in question. Wrath of the Everchosen comes to mind, where it seems to imply Archaon just gave up instead on continuing his assault.