[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

47 minutes ago, Aaranis said:

I figured having smaller blobs helped with the summon back ability. I mean with big blocks you can still have a handful alive after a big scrap, whereas a smaller unit would've died outright, allowing you to summon it back right after instead of losing a turn sending the rest of the blob to their deaths (these revenants can't catch a rest). But maybe I'm underestimating the lethality of the 2000 pts scene too. If I faced this I'd try to leave the units almost dead to prevent resurrection.

As for the Bladegheist debate I was surprised too but it made me run proper Mathammer to take the 6s to Wound from the Harridans into account and the results are as following assuming I'm not too awful at maths and did the right method:

  Hide contents

 

10 Harridans on the charge = 31A*0,5*0,66 = 10,33*(7/6) = 12,05 D
10 Bladegheists on the charge = 30A*0,66*0,66 = 13,33 D

Now we apply 1 CP to give them +1 to Hit from the list's KoS:

10 Harridans on the charge = 31A*0,66*0,66 = 13,77*(7/6) = 16,07 D
10 Bladegheists on the charge = 30A*0,83*0,66 = 16,66 D

Now we apply 2  CP to give them +2 to Hit from the list's KoS:

10 Harridans on the charge = 31A*0,83*0,66 = 17,22*(7/6) = 20,09 D
10 Bladegheists on the charge = 30A*0,83*0,66 = 16,66 D

 

So the Harridans are on par with the Bladegheists when given +1 to Hit, and plain better when given +2 to Hit. Now we can argue that Bladegheists require less investment in CP as they do just fine with a Chainghast/Spirit Torment to support them, but Harridans don't need to retreat/charge to keep their number of attacks (which is not really a problem for a Flying army but there might be issues when double turned) and can get -1 to be Hit when the attacker is under 7 Bravery, improving their resilience. So in the case of this list, which produces a lot of CP, burning 2 of them/turn to maximise their damage output seems perfectly viable.

I'm more curious about the Grimghasts as to me they just look like worst Bladegheists, is their 2" range really that important ? Never played them so honest question. I also understand that getting full rerolls to Hit just with an enemy unit of 5+ models is a boon when operating by themselves.

Pretty sure you can't stack two of KoS's +1 hit auras, even if from two Knights. A unit can only receive a buff with a unique name from one source at a time unless specifically noted.

But yes, Harridans hit hard and are great models. The only reason to choose Bladegheists over them, really, is the attack profile. In terms of Mathhammering it, # attacks > extra damage/MW on 6 = to hit > to wound, and I think people generally feel the more certain 3+/3+ profile, and the KoS/GoS ability to make those into 2+/2+ is worth the extra points. I'm in that boat, myself. Do that same math with +1 attacks, +1 hit, and +1 wound and you'll see why.  And then add in the reroll factor; Bladegeists get to reroll everything in the aura of a Chainghast even without a Spirit Torment on the board, where as the Harridans would need a Spirit Torment just to get reroll 1s. It's a difference of 40 points less to set this up with the Bladegheists.

But math alone doesn't win games, sadly. 

@AidenNicol has a point that a blob of 30 Reapers is hard to erase from the board. And, if your opponents have units with 5 or more in them then I agree that this is very attractive, since those Reapers will be dishing out the hurt for several combats. Paired with the Necromancer and/or another healer and it might be enough sustain. Points-wise, 420 points for 30 reapers also costs less than 500 for 20+10 Bladegheists (though I'd never run that kind of split) or 540 for 15+15.

My argument is only about the size of the units. Is a maxed blob of X unit is better than smaller blobs of Y unit for various reasons. Depending on what you put on the table and if you're sending them in with the units, how much healing can you do to a unit per turn vs popping a CP to bring a smaller one back again and again?

So far I have noticed two real big issues with gravesites and unit size. The first is zoning. You've got a 9" aura, less the amount your general is taking up, to put a resurrected unit back. If it's a clean site, great, but as soon as an enemy unit starts getting in close you also have the 9" rule against setting up near them to worry about. If you're fighting an opponent who can deep strike or brings in small objective camper units, you'll have a hard time here.

Second, once a unit goes down if you don't have something else to screen the oncoming units your heroes are next. When I've ran full units against the more spiky brick walls like Hammerhal this was lethal for me. I have a spawn, move, run in order to get close and if your opponent is playing for space that won't be enough. Basically, I'm arguing that if you bring 2+x10s to a fight, your opponent now has to make the tactical choice of committing their entire attack/counter on one unit, or risk splitting attacks and not wiping them both out. And since that puts the pressure on them it's more stressful for them when you bring a unit back and can get it into combat again before they could finish off the other one.

This weekend I plan on trying exactly this strategy at 1500 points.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

I don't quite agree with the Bladegheist assessment.

I'm still playing around with different compositions, but I'm finding that smaller multiple groups, like 2x10, with heroes that bubble buff, like GoS and KoSof, not only allows you to still deal impressive damage but also protects the unit from being completely wiped on the counter. With their 8" move and thinking ahead you'll probably have a gravesite and your general not too far away to replenish either unit that's lost.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

6 minutes ago, Keith said:

How do the Chainrasp Horde perform ? I have 80 of them painted but they sort lack the killer punch I want, and tend to die easy ?

In Nighthaunt taking The Condemned battalion makes them one of our best battlelines. In LoG you can still get a good punch out of them by pairing them with a Spirit Torment, a Guardian of Souls, a Necromancer, or any combination of these.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

1 hour ago, Aaranis said:

So as I understand it it's safer to play LoG as an endless pit of CPs than with the Bravery bombs ? I played my first LoG game at 1000 pts the other day and got completely wrecked, though it was against Hermgar (something along this word) 2x10 Berzerkers, 10 HG Berzerkers, Runedad on Magmadroth and Priest on foot.

When he announced me he ignored battleshock when entirely near an objective I was like "Ah-a" looking at my Banshee and my -6 Bravery shenanigans. Long story short I lost badly.

But it seems the tactic is more around MSU, Aetherquartz + Vassal and drown the opponent in waves. Cogs should be nice to add so that the summoned units can join the fight right off the grave. Looks way more reliable than Bravery bombing. Although I'm not sure if LoG is better or worse at 1000 pts level, but I'm planning to expand anyway.

Also quick question, I've heard of players playing Legions and still having Waves of Terror, is this some Allies ability or something else ? Or just illegal ? 

Thanks for reading, this thread (and forum) is a goldmine of information for me !

Bravery Bomb is fun, but it's not competitive since any army can ignore battleshock for a CP, and a lot of armies have other built-in protections against bravery mattering at all. It can be a devastating method of play, but only if your opponent has no answer for it.

The Vassals+Aetherquartz is just a tactic among several, but it seems the most popular. This is because per the wording of both abilities you can potentially gain 2 CP every time you spend 1. CP = grave resurrections. CP = KoS buff. CP = auto-pass battleshock. Reroll charges, All Out Attack/Defense. Your options just open up. But, it's still a gamble, 4+s and all.

Cogs, yes, but remember that your opponent also benefits from the speed.

1K points feels stronger to me as Nighthaunt, but I haven't played LoG at that level. At 1500 I really like LoG.

Wave of Terror is a Nighthaunt allegiance ability = any charge roll of a natural 10 (or 9 in the Deathriders battalion) and that unit gets to fight immediately (in the charge phase). This fight cannot be countered. They can still fight in the combat phase. About a 16% chance. 26% in the battalion.

Necromancers, who are full-fledged members of LoG have the spell Manhel's Danse Macabre. For a cast value of 6 a selected unit can be picked to pile in and fight again in the combat phase. This can be countered as it just means you didn't exhaust the unit that fought and has this buff. It's not as powerful, but slightly more reliable. It's a spell, so you can for sure cast it, but you have about a 70% chance to get it off, followed by an unbind attempt. And then, once buffed, that unit could take a lot of damage before you'd want it to attack again.

If your LoG opponent was using any NH allegiance abilities, including battalions, it was illegal.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

1 hour ago, Thamalys said:

Good stuff - I like it. My only concern is the DH as your general - I get the reason(S) why, but the risk of losing him real soon (shooting, MWs...) is real... and when that happens, the awesomeness of Endless Legions goes down the drain...

I have run the Brooch quite a few times, but it's so unreliable... as you already have the Vassal of the Craven King as your trait for that 5+ CP back, I would either bring in a less squishy general (would Lady Olynder be an option? Cutting on those Bladegheist Reventants, maybe? It's impossible to get 20 in anyway...) or give the DH the Gryph-feather Charm (that, plus cover anytime available [and there's always some piece of terrain around for a tiny DH] should make it a bit more durable). 

Just a very personal set of thoughts, though!

Ran two games with this list.

Game one I ended up gaining 8 CP in addition to the 1 per turn. The DH as a general was a superstar, able to blink away at the slightest sign of danger. In the early game that was to another gravesite, but later it was just "away".

My opponent (Hammerhal) was able to zone out my gravesites eventually by sitting small units right on top of them and as a result I lost, but this was due to me making some very dumb mistakes that left them open. Still, even without my graves being able to buff the attacks on all my units without worry of being CP starved I wrecked shop. I lost, but it was because often found myself rushing into a fight and coming up short. If I had played more tactically I would have easily won. My opponent told me how scared he was.

 

The second game was very short. Stormcast with an uber elite squad tactic. I set up by putting my Reapers as a screen to protect my general (it was moving objective battle plan) and he placed that squad right across from them. He was able to move, charge, and destroy my Reapers at the end of turn one and got the double turn to kill my general at the top of turn 2. We kept playing just to see how tough I was without him, but the game was basically over. 4 turns, got him down to his last legs, but he won overwhelmingly on points.

 

Lessons learned: Vassal and Aetherquartz on an unnamed general is no gimmick. In an army that has multiple ways of spending CP sitting on a mound of them is tasty.

I'm not sold on large unit sizes. Zoning your Gravesites aside, smaller units protect against a ton of wounds routing out your entire protective line. I'll be trying a smaller numerous unit approach next time.

I played against opponents who know that NH/LoG need their heroes to be effective and they targeted them relentlessly. The DH as the general was by far the best way to keep him out of danger. But, you have to think a turn ahead on his movements or you will put him in a corner.

Put a couple units in the grave. I didn't do that in either game and both opponents told me afterwards that they were terrified of me doing it. They said that when a unit is in the grave they feel forced to spread out wider and in a more vulnerable way just to make sure you don't zone in behind them. That coupled with the graves themselves made them think they were playing a 7-objective game. They both said they had to wait for my mistakes to make their moves, and if I had units in reserve I would have been able to "undo" a mistake by reenforcing a weak area.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

Rate My LoG

I'm going to be taking this up against either Stormcast or Cities Hammerhal or Hallowheart. Depends on who shows up, really.

The plan is to have a unit of Chainrasps tucked in tight with the Spirit Torment as my anvil. The other Chainrasps will be cozy with the Necromancer, hopefully able to camp an objective as well as be in range to cast Danse whenever I need it. The Chainghasts will stick to the Bladegheists even if the ST is out of range, and keep the KoS with them, to be a hammer. The Reapers will push forward against any horde enemies, but otherwise will act as support for the Chainrasps.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

LoG is a thematic, narrative faction that was made for the story told in Forbidden Power. The bravery manipulation fits that, as does forcing Olynder to be a general. However, I'm sure GW knew when they released it that LoG was going to see some use, maybe even competitively, since it gives NH players pretty much their only other way to play unless they have a ton of other Death units already.

I think that's why there are some truly useful other traits and abilities to use. If they expected bravery to be the primary method to play they would have included ways to force battleshock or extending Dreadscythe's/Tomb Banshee/or some other bravery mechanic across more of the army. Lacking that, I think they expected LoG to be testing ground for a NH-centric legion and is unfinished, but surprisingly strong when thinking outside of the box.

(Feel free to skip all this, it's just my opinion)

Spoiler

 

Right now, using LoG's bravery mechanics is only useful against inexperienced players, armies with already mid-to-low bravery, or anyone CP starved without bravery/battleshock protections. That's a very narrow list. Oh, and you have to get your spells off, your general in the right position, and bring some very specific units. That kind of risk/reward is not balanced here. You do not get anything special for adhering to this when you could go the CP refund route and net, arguably, a stronger army. Sport slick tires vs all-weathers. You're already going to get trounced if you bring a bad list to a matchup, but at least non-bravery methods still have a chance.

That's not saying it wouldn't be fun to play. Casually, for sure. But almost everyone, even the newest players, take to the internet to find tournament lists and want to know what tier their army is. Tons of legit reasons why, too. I, for example, do this because of the escalation; I have a good army that's hard to beat, so my friend finds a top-tier list for his army. Now his is the "one to beat" and another friend invests into one of the newest (and most unbalanced) books and armies. Now I need to up my game to stay competitive.

LoG strikes me as a slower, more controlled way to play. It feels like chess. You have zones you need to control, the very presence of a gravesite adding pseudo-objectives for your opponent to want to capture. You lose a little bit of your healing and almost everything else that made NH terrifying, but gain a horrifying presence in being able to bring back your best units. Your opponent can't rest if they take down your extremely damaging unit, they'll be right back soon. The lack of "wholly within" means you can take up more space. The trade off is that you are protected by your zones in addition to your heroes, and lose your power if you get too far away from them. Your gravesites deserve just as much deployment consideration as your units do, and your newly resurrected units will likely be out of a hero's range on their way back to the fight.

NH feels more like the army it's lored to be, shock troops. Ambushers. Small groups of a unit or two with a hero each. They show up, charge right away, and lay waste. A lot of power in smaller spaces, which means you have to move like a wave. Plenty of risk/reward here too, as if you don't nail that charge you are lose an unanswered chance to bring damage. Your battalions promote the idea of keeping your heroes close and shore up where you might be weak. I have always felt that battalions, by the way, aren't bad after the top two/three (Shroudguard and Chainguard/Condemned), they are your way of tailoring your list to the army you're about to fight.

Personally, I'm looking to have way more games with LoG under my belt so I can feel out which is the most solid way to play for me. I see a ton of potential with LoG, but it's not exactly ready yet. NH, though, feels too risky and too lackluster now that a lot of things that came out since then can either specifically target NH, ignore our best offensive abilities, or just overpower us.

 

 

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

I think doing anything that works is worth looking at.

Imean, let's not fall back into the "Bravery Bomb" situation, where any LoG list that didn't include trying to make -8 Bravery was "wrong".

Build how you like and let's hear the results!

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

8 minutes ago, robpro said:

I basically went for as much punching power as I could get with the list.

Totally agree with your assessment. If you're going full tilt then you're probably better off spending those 90 points in another place.

We've been choosing the Harrow because as long as he's not in combat at the start of the moment phase you have a teleport to a gravesite, which is quite powerful on the face of it. Putting your command trait and artifact on a model that can play the best game of "catch me if you can" just makes him a pretty top-tier pick in most lists.

Just pointing out that you don't need KoS, either on foot or steed, as your general to use his warscroll ability. But, if you plan on also leveraging all your CP on attack power instead of resurrections, then I think you have the right idea.

Though, I will point out that the command abilities you are referencing, like All Out Attack, don't need to come from a general either, they just get a larger range if they do. The realm-specific ones might, I never looked, but for the GHB ones it's an extra 6".

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

1 hour ago, robpro said:

+1a command ability on the revenants and reapers.

Don't need him as general for that.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

The wording sure seems to suggest a two-for-one deal if you're lucky with your rolls. Is there a rule elsewhere that affects this?

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

8 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Do you get to roll twice, once for vassal and then for aetherquartz? Would you therefore potentially recieve 2 CP when you spend 1? Thanks in advance. 

As far as I understand it it's two chances at getting the 1 point back. If the first chance gets it back, then the second chance doesn't fire.

If I'm wrong, though, and you can get potentially two back for every one spent then I wouldn't bring Kurdoss at all!

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

5 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

I’m pretty addicted to the Spirit of Torment.  Although in LoG he can’t get the relic needed to get his “kill” on, followed by the “heals”.  So you’re probably right about the Mounted KoS.  Did the DH prove useful?  You might be able to free up points from him and the Banshees.  The necromancer or GoS can always lurk back as the unit re-summoner.

 

His Bladegheists are maxed.  It’s just unusual seeing someone actually running that many together since in a regular Nighthaunt army they’d potentially be falling out of synergy ranges.

The DH was very useful. As I was losing ground it was really nice to teleport to a grave to pull out units. No other hero could have done it, even with a maxed run. He's cheap, too.

In terms of buffs I prefer the extra attack if I'm already swinging well, and Bladegheists get to reroll all misses with a ST or Chainghasts around. Fun fact: nothing on the Bladegheists war scroll suggests they don't get the buffs from the Chainghasts even if there's no ST around. To me, the only reasons to bring a GoS is to bait out an unbind attempt before you cast your Necromancer's Danse and to give the +1 wounds buff.

I plan on bringing the following the next time I challenge my Cities friend:

Hereos: Dreadblade Harrow (General, Vassal, Aetherquartz Brooch), Kurdoss Valentian, Necromancer (Wail of Doom) and KoSoES

Battleline: Chainrasps x10, Chainrasps x10. Other: Bladegheists x20, Reapers x20, Chainghasts x4

If I drop Kurdoss for a ST then I can also bring one Chainrasps horde to 20.

Is Kurdoss worth bringing in a 1500 game? Especially if running Vassal and Aetherquartz?

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

3 hours ago, Grimoriano said:

1- u can kill his general to remove the +1/+1

2- the buff is on the charge, so try to charge first.

3- in LoG u have to use at least 1 powerfull unit at max number, use it as a kamikaze, res it with cp, do it again... with that u will get a points advantage.

I focused his general both games, and got him to retreat in the second one, but I could never actually kill him. Too many wounds behind a 3+ save.

In the early game I was able to charge first, so that worked. But as I stated to lose units and was pulling them out of the grave his entourage would gain ground and zone me out of my nearest graveyard causing me to backtrack. Once that happened I never had a charge phase since bringing the unit out counts as movement and he still had all of his to get into position.

The bit about a maxed unit, this I didn't do and I see your logic. I am definitely going to try that.

[AoS 2 - Legion of Grief discussion]

I brought a LoG list to a Cities of Sigmar fight and got wrrrrreeeeeccccckkked. Twice.

Both games were 1500. Both times my Cities player brought the Hammerhal city with a battalion.

I brought the following:

Hereos: Dreadblade Harrow (General, Vassal, Aetherquartz Brooch), Kurdoss Valentian, Guardian of Souls (Dread Withering), and a Necromancer (Wail of Doom)

Battleline: Chainrasps x20, Chainrasps x10. Other: Bladegheists x20, Reapers x20, Myrmourn Banshees x8

Game 1 was a total failure. I rolled horribly, not saving any CP despite the two chances at it, and not stealing any CP. I also didn't know what his army could do, so I had no recourse against his 2+/2+, 6s do mortals in addition to wounds, and "spend a CP and fight again" shenanigans. I went first, lost my Bladegheists en masse on my turn-his counter attack, and then lost the rest of them on his turn. He got the double turn and pretty much finished me off.

Game 2 was much better in terms of die rolls. Kurdoss stole himself 5 CP, and the refunds happened almost every time. But, all the CP in the world couldn't save me. I now knew where his damage was coming from, so I decided to smash into it head on hoping I could take out his sea of wounds. I made some mistakes with hero positioning, but overall the real brick wall was just the sheer amount of damage he could dish out even when he wasn't charging. By the top of turn 4 I conceded, him having done over 99 wounds to me before we stopped counting and me only doing 20. At no time did any unit engaged with him last more than one exchange.

What I learned:

Cities have the best "fight again" ability in the game? NH's WoT is unanswerable for that first attack, but you need to land that natural 10 charge roll. LoG's Necromancer's Danse is a cast, so a chance to never even get it off and it can be unbound. Meanwhile Hammerhal can generate up to 4 CP a turn (I think) and it just costs one for any of their units to fight again. Add that to his 3+ saves and aforementioned 2+/2+ and all he had to do was wait until my units were exhausted and just choose one or two of his to reactivate and wipe whatever was in front of them.

Banshees? I didn't know he wouldn't have any casting so they were never empowered. Didn't matter much, they appeared from the grave to sit on an objective only to evaporate when attacked. His 30 wounds per turn average made their 8 laughable.

LoG gravesites only prolonged my torture. Instead of being wiped out in turn 2 I was able to stick it out with 3 unit resurrections to last until turn 4. But with no way to shroud my own guys or reduce incoming damage "temporary" was a key word for my guys in addition to "summonable". Losing Shademist, GoS's lanterns to help his healing, and losing the Shroudguard and Chainguard battalions are huge hits to our survivability.

KoSoES and ST would have been better heroes to take. The KoS extra attack for a CP is likely the best buff I could give out, and if I'm lucky enough to get a Danse off those two have great synergy. ST's reroll 1's for everyone, and Bladegheists getting to reroll all failures from him or his Chainghasts, would do a huge favor to my damage output. Not having The Condemned battalion really hurts.

Sorry for my ranting, but I'm not really sure what my trouble was. My list was janky, for sure. I didn't know what he was going to bring and I tried to cover the spread. I feel like LoG is stronger than pure NH, but maybe not? Or was it just the overwhelming OPness of the new Cities book?

What do you guys think?