Trevelyan

A Branchwraith plus Treelord are better than a TLA? The Treelord is arguably a better melee fighter insofar as it gets one more attack, although the TLA has the better ranged attack. But is the Branchwraith a better caster than the TLA? Outside of summoning Dryads, it doesn’t do much - the Branchwraith has fewer wounds and worse saves so dies more easily in spite of Blessings of the Forest. It can’t support front line units nearly as well. Saying that the Branchwraith is a better than the TLA is akin to arguing that apples are better than oranges because you’ve presupposed that’s everyone likes apple juice. The traits and artefacts are going on Durthu so the TLA gets no credit for being able to take them? Again, that presupposes that you are taking Durthu and not taking enough artefacts for other units. The Vesperal Gem is one of the strongest artefacts we have but you certainly won’t be giving that to Durthu. Bracketing the TLA does hurt, but that’s common to all monsters in AoS and citing it as your big personal issue seems strange. Dropping from three to two melee attacks is harsh - it represents a 33% drop in melee combat effectiveness (ignoring Impale). But you’re clearly a fan of Durthu, and what happens when he drops by a few damage points? Durthu goes from a flat 6 damage to a variable d6 damage on his melee attacks for an effective 42% drop in melee combat effectiveness. Why give Durthu a pass when he drops more than the TLA? I wouldn’t advocate taking multiple TLAs in every list. But they are serious value in Gnarlroot where you want them supporting melee units up front (Branchwraith need not apply) and you probably aren’t taking a Durthu to begin with. Gnarlroot gives them a 2+ hit reroll 1s ranged attack and 3+ hit reroll 1s melee attacks all doing d6 damage. That’s more reliable than you’d expect before you add in the spells, the battalion bonus (LotC is worth taking in Gnarlroot) and the support for other units. I’m guessing you’ve never tried it, but it is worth a go.

My least satisfying games have been against fast lists (FEC, Slaanesh and Orcs) that mostly sent a few chaff units to run interference. So it’s not strictly true that he killed nothing, but rather that they had the means to ensure that he got bogged down killing trivial stuff rather than the juicy targets that I wanted him to kill. These games weren’t a loss (other than the FEC where is misjudged distances and he got a lucky 11” charge over my line with his Crypt Flayer Horde) but then tended to be fights on one table half/objective while Gotrek bullied a few things trying to control the other. I suppose he played a part, but it was more as a deterrent than as a satisfyingly crunchy god of war

None of his abilities could stack. Heed the Spirit Song rerolls 1s however many times you might apply it and none of the others are stackable to begin with. You lose out on multiple Awakening the Woods spells (but see option below) but you can give each of them different alternate spells, or even the same spell and decide which casts - between Awakening, summoning a wood an casting your chosen spell there are options for three TLAs to cast different spells with an identical selection. I assume you are really talking about Silent Communion being once per game and not once per unit. I find that a fairly weak argument insofar as a) having multiple TLA still gives you greater choice of where you put the free Wyldwood - don’t underestimate the value of being unpredictable/having options; and b) summoning a Wyldwood is not the only reason to take a TLA in the first place. The primary reason to take a TLA is that it combines a durable second line wizard with a reasonable ranged attack and adequate melee? Plus it lets you bring another Stomp. There is enough value in the TLA aside from Silent Communion that it would be valid (maybe at a slight discount) even without it.

I’ve used Gotrek in a few casual games. I find that he lives up to the hype if he actually gets to fight things, but in practice his low speed makes him easy to avoid. More often than not (3 out of 4 games) he gets left largely alone. That does give him some ability to control an area of the table and dominate an objective, but sitting in a big bubble with no one to play with seems like a waste of the points. He is comedy value In Warcry, though.

The cover mid-casualties thing is an artefact of 40,000 where damage is applied to each model at a time. The reason being that damage from one model in a unit in that game doesn’t typically roll over into the next model in the unit - if you unleash a 6 damage attack on a 1 wound mini then you might turn it into chunky salsa, but you wouldn’t get to kill five of his friends at the same time. For the most part, you can still roll all attacks and saves together, since you’ll often be making 1 damage attacks against at 1 wound units in identical conditions, but there are some edge cases where you need to roll attacks, saves and damage individually. As far as I know/off the top of my head, there is no AoS parallel.

Important distinction - they get +1 to save as long as they have “10 or more models.” That distinction matters, because a unit summoned by a Branchwraith gets +1 to save at the outset, which wouldn’t be the case if they needed “over 10 models.”

It’s not a million miles away from your list. Simple, unformatted version: Drycha; Regrowth TLA: General, Vesperal Gem, Harmony TLA: Chalice, Regrowth Branchwraith: Throne Treelord 6x Scythe Hunters 5x Tree Revenants 5x Tree Revenants 20x Dryads LotC Gladewurm Spiteswarm Hive

That’s why Gnarlroot is an under appreciated gem of a Glade. Between the Chalice of Nectar and the inevitable Vesperal Gem you can reliably cast several spells. As an added bonus, the Glade also helps TLA combat accuracy.

This is the key. You win games of AoS by scoring VPs based on the objectives for a given scenario. While combat is an essential part of the game plan - you need to stop enemy units from scoring, defend your own units, and sometimes have explicit kill conditions for victory - it is important to remember that AoS is not “Fantasy Killfest 2020”. You need as many Hunters as necessary to fill the combat function requirement in your list without undermining all the other things you need to consider. It doesn’t matter that 200 points of Hunters is much more effective in a fight than 200 points of Tree Revenants. You shouldn’t be taking Tree Revenants as a primary combat unit. But neither should you overlook the vastly greater mobility (with commensurate objective grabbing and interference potential) that the Revenants bring to your list. Build a list to win the objective game you are playing, not the abstract combat simulator that is over represented on the internet.

I’ve run a very similar list in the past with one fewer Treelord (I only own one), and swapping a few other things about. But the core concept - Gnarlroot, LotC with Gem and Chalice on the TLA with Harmony and Regrowth respectively, and a unit of six Scythes as heavy hitters - was the same. I can’t remember the exact list I had, but I vaguely recall that I managed to squeeze Drycha in there too. It definitely works. You may not need Archie as using a TLA to support the Hunters provides the same rerolls, and there is a lot of value in using the Gnarlroot command ability To further reinforce them, rather than focusing on pure offence. The TLA can stand directly behind the Hunters and still potentially apply his Stomp, and Sweeping Blows likewise adds to the damage output. I’ll check and edit my exact list back in, but it is somewhere back in this thread and the last time I used it, the Hunters and TLA took Archaon to the face, survived and did a number on Him in return. That’s probably enough punch to be getting on with.

Not remotely worth it. That’s a huge investment, not least in endless spells, for what exactly? The Branchwraith can summon and cast Harmony if she has LoS to the target unit. But she can’t move and if she has LoS to the target unit then she’s probably in a poor position. If, by some miracle, she actually starts contributing then either you have to keep her screened (limiting the value of her Dryads for other purposes) or she’ll die to half the armies that you might face. As an abstract exercise in getting multiple casts out of a Branchwraith it is interesting, but not as something to aspire to in an actual game.

Throne would be a waste. Regrowth has a lower casting value, but that doesn’t make it much easier to cast under pressure - yes you can cast the spell on a 5+ rather than a 7+, but if you only just squeak past the lower casting value then it is much easier for your opponent to unbind your spell. I rank Regrowth alongside Harmony as a spell that I really need to go off if I’m trying to cast it at all, that includes the chance of unbinding. Regrowth is almost always something that you cast on a monster to push it up a damage level or two before moving or attacking The difference between casting and not casting can be significant. The others I tend to bother with less, but that’s personal preference. I don’t see why only having the gem work well with one or two spells is a problem, though. Those are the best spells we have and almost every list has at least one of them. Since a given caster can only have one artefact and one extra spell, it doesn’t matter that the artefact he has isn’t as useful with a spell he doesn’t.

Vesperal Gem. Summoning an extra 10 Dryads, most likely in your backfield and a turn or two away from contributing is an occasional nice to have but rarely a game changer. If you need to rely on a Dryad summon to try to win then you’ve already lost. Guaranteed summoning a Hunter back to a unit that is already engaged (it has taken damage) will make a difference every time you do it.

That’s a classic example of a basic inductive fallacy. Just because X is good, it does not follow that more X is better and most X is best. That may be the case, but in practice there are always limits. Consider that you could take 2,000 points of Kurnoth Hunters - ten full units, or 30 bodies on the table. That’s maxing out on Hunters. Clearly that isn’t an optimal list - swapping a single unit for an arch revenant or two is going to improve your output. In practice, you recognise that - you aren’t actually calling for a 30 Hunter list - but you still dismiss the TLA option on the basis that they cut into the Hunter budget. The TLA brings a guaranteed Wyldwood to aid Hunter mobility (they are significantly weakened if you can only stomp across the table on foot). The TLA is also the only caster we have that can operate safely (and with reasonable damage output) in the second line - Wyches and Wraiths need a lot more protection - so if you want spell support to heal or resurrect your Hunters then the TLA is a solid choice. The TLA isn’t the fire-and-forget level of easy Hunter support that Archie brings, but it’s a gross oversimplification to dismiss the TLA out of hand; there are many things I would be inclined to drop first.

I really don’t miss the multi-casting. Think back on what you actually used it for - I found myself taking a Branchwych for extra offensive magic and a host of endless spells. Even then, I was frequently short of genuine spell options, and the ones that counted were far from guaranteed. After trying both, I much prefer the virtual guarantee of getting two key spells off each turn. On that basis, I would suggest that you don’t reach for the Spiritsong Stave as your default first artefact. It is useful, but the Vesperal Gem is generally better and there are several interesting options for non-casters. Tzeentch is an interesting game for Gnarlroot. The Vesperal Gem means we can guarantee one cast per turn, and the Chalice gives us a better chance than most of managing a second. My local Chaos player find it distinctly uncomfortable to face a list that can still cast. And remember that the Wyldwoods can seriously penalise Tzeentch casting without impairing our own (Hint: take a TLA to drop a key Wyldwood without a spell). It’s actually not a bad match up.

And there we see Inquisitorsz point - a subset of established Sylvaneth players looked at 2.0 for what it didn’t do any more rather than what it could do now. Gnarlroot is an interesting example. I played a lot of Gnarlroot in 1.0 and it is entirely fair to say that it plays differently in 2.0. Total number of casts is half what it was for a start. But if you look beyond the inability to squeeze in non-faction casters, the remaining Glade is actually pretty solid - it has access to an excellent casting artefact in the Chalice, and can pick up a second in the Gem. Since the old glade specific spell is now freely available (Verdurous Harmony), you’ve got a nGnarlroot which has the same theme as oGnarlroot, the same potent spell, trade quantity for quality of casting and layers on a lot of additional durability and accuracy that oGnarlroot never had. All for the price of being a Sylvaneth Glade and not Sylvaneth & the Super Friend. I’ve won many games with nGnarlroot - it’s good even if it is different.

I agree with the above assessments. We’re certainly not the strongest, but I don’t think recent tournament results do us justice. To put it into context, in a world where most factions with a 2.0 book immediately see minor errata to nerf the unintended excesses, the only errata we’ve seen reduced the point costs of several of our units - we are unique in having a 2.0 book that needed further buffs to be viable! I think we have a more flexible faction than most. There are a lot of ways to play Sylvaneth, and several Glades are competitive (a few clearly are not). Winterleaf is still over represented which I think is possibly a mistake. Winterleaf hits hard, and combined with a slab of Hunters it can really put the hurt on most other factions, but it isnt subtle and there are some fairly trivial counters available. I suspect that we need to see a few more creative lists to really capitalise on the current meta. We need to rediscover what is unique about Sylvaneth rather than reaching for the big stick each time. I suspect that, with hindsight, the cumulative changes to Wyldwoods and teleporting were a bit too extreme. Many other factions now have easier access to greater mobility than us and something in our overall speed and placement seems slightly off. We need to put a lot more effort in and still end up being fractionally less mobile than many other factions these days.

Alarielle herself is Around 2.75 inches from foot (her right foot) to the top of her headdress. From foot to the top of her left wing (on the right as you face her) is about 3.5 inches. Her wings are about 4.5 inches at the widest point. The Spear of Kurnoth is a fraction under 4 inches long.

I’ve already got two, but never felt the need to run the pair. A second Archie certainly would help the Dryads - I’ve used the command ability on them a couple of time and would do so again - but I never seem to have the points to spare.

It was very good. I’m not quite sure it was necessary to quote the entire post just to show your appreciation, though!

I assume it’s an attempt to give the Wraith an extra cast to use both Throne and to summon dryads. If so, it is probably a waste of the points spent on the Vortex - the Vortex gets you two casts per turn, including the turn you cast it. I would guess that the plan is to cast Vortex and maybe attempt a summon on Turn 1, then cast Throne and a summon on subsequent Turns. that would make the first turn dependent on a 6+ then a 7+ spell to pull off, with subsequent 5+ and 7(5)+ casting. Once the Vortex is up, the subsequent turns are relatively reliable, but there is a reasonable chance that you miss the Vortex cast to start and are on the back foot thereafter. It would be better to spend the points on another spell, cast Throne Turn 1 and summon on subsequent turns. Or just try to summon normally each turn. Summoned dryads are nice to have, but you shouldn’t hang your game plan on the ability to get them out, and there are almost always better ways to spend the points than enhanced dryad summoning.

Yes. The limit is on the number of time you can attempt to cast a spell, not the number of units that have access to it.

The genesis of the discussion wasn’t around offensive deepstriking, but using reserve deployment as a means to avoid losing key units to a ranged (or possibly melee, but that’s easier to screen) alpha. Reserve deployment is rarely worthwhile for a genuine deepstrike offensive move since you’d miss out on the obvious charge buffs in the hero phase (Hive). It’s really best used as a mobility tool now that we can only teleport a limited number of units each turn.

That we have not. Sadly, for our first bout in ages, you clearly forgot to bring your “A” game 😛 You overlook a few key points: Firstly, you can decide deployment on a game by game basis. If your enemy can’t threaten Drycha then there is absolutely no reason not to deploy her from the outset. That should go without saying. Secondly, the risk of being zoned out can be overstated. It is possible for an army to do it, and there is a risk that they could stop you from summoning more Wyldwoods (although not always *coughTLAcough*), but ensuring that there is nowhere wholly within 6” of a Wyldwood often requires a) dedicated positioning of one or more units in a way that doesn’t play to objectives; b) if done with a single unit almost guarantees that said unit is highly vulnerable to mortals from Roused by Magic and the end of charge phase; and c) is vastly diminished if the Wyldwood is defensively positioned in your own deployment zone rather than being offensively placed near the enemy. So if you deploy Drycha in reserve against a melee army with strong unbinding potential when your only Wyldwood is aggressively placed and you have no TLA then you’ve probably made a bad call. I suggest you don't do that. 🙂 But if Drycha would be at risk from a ranged alpha then place a defensive Wyldwood and/or rely on a TLA to place one for you (and hope the TLA doesn’t get nuked instead!) and being her out when it is safe. That was fun. But I like it more when we agree. EDIT: there is something to be said for the risk of overestimating the risk of Drycha (or any other key unit) being the target of a nuke. That’s goes more to the general psychological problem of expecting your opponent to actively undermine your own plan, as if he had perfect knowledge and no plan of his own, rather than to play his own game and only undermine you to the extent that you are both fighting over the same objectives. Generally, a good player will put winning ahead of making you lose (and they are subtly different things), and nuking your hero on Turn 1 may not be a priority if it leaves him exposed in the long term. Of course, nuking your hero could be part of the plan too, and some players are so aggressive that they prefer to kill stuff and hope the objectives fall into place. Sometimes that even works for them. So it’s another layer of judgement.

Of those two options, you definitely want the Hive and the CP. Dreadwood is very CP hungry - you need one per Turn just to use the command ability. And that ability is a lot more effective if you have the means to boost charges after the teleport.