Kasper
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Posts posted by Kasper
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So Bestigors would have 6” base, +2 from cogs, +3 from shaman, then D6 run with +1 from banner. So with a CP they run 18”. On the charge they get +1 from Godseekers and +2 from Cogs. Meaning minimum 23” charge turn 1. Have I missed anything? First time mixing BoC with another army.
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5 hours ago, SwampHeart said:
I think allies have legs in a HoS army. I routinely run Kairos in my lists to make Slothful Stupor a real threat and to add magical threat to the list, the Corruptor is a solid hitter with a good spell and can lay down WLC to set up the trap. I'd love to be able to slot in the Warpseer but unfortunately the Corruptor is the only one you can get an ally in HoS.
What kind of list do you use with Kairos? I like the idea of him and umbral spell portal.
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5 hours ago, XReN said:
So, I finally got a look at the new rules first hand aaaand you can't place skaven gnawholes, period. You. Just. Can't.
What are those rules? Correct - they are BS that never was playtested by any competent person.
If you bothered to just look one post back instead of randomly quoting a part of a conversion, you would see I literally stated that the Gnawhole rules are silly and will obviously be FAQ'd. Beyond that, it really isn't too bad when you actually play with it.
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18 hours ago, XReN said:
Not yet, but I'm not thrilled about the changes, we discussed it yesterday between local players and figured out that, for example, to place a Khorne altar you need a 18" bubble of unoccupied space, which is drammaticly huge. You also can't waste time re-setting terrain on tournaments before every game.
But actually playing with the rules is completely different than sitting there and theorycrafting based on what you read in the book. You should give it a go. The table is quite huge and we had plently of space tbh.
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I played a game yesterday using the new terrain rules. We took turns placing terrain, but also rolled 2D6 pr. terrain to determine what effect they gave. It really wasn't that bad. I understand that Gnawholes are an outliner compared to the other terrain pieces, so will expect a FAQ. I just wonder exactly how many have actually tried using the new rules before complaining about something written in a book.
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14 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
Snip
Great writeup - Thank you very much for it.
I'm curious though, you mention WDR and talk about looking at warscrolls specifically. I'll admit I'm not certain how exactly you calculate WDR, but it sounds like it is purely based on the specific warscroll?
Does this mean that alligiance abilities aren't factored in, in any way, when deeming the value of a specific warscroll? Slaanesh has pretty bonkers alligiance abilities, so comparing a warscroll like Daemonettes to, let's say Gors in BoC really doesn't tell you much and the comparison will be awful compared to reality. This is further complicated by abilities that allows the Daemonettes to fight twice etc.
My question is if WDR is purely based on 1:1 comparions of warscrolls?
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14 hours ago, Belper said:
Except it doesn't though? The changes are so minimal that most skew lists are unaffected or not particularly different.
Some armies had points adjusted up/down which attempts to encourage usage of other units within a faction. Even if I don't agree with the exact point decreases or increases, and every unit they have picked, would you honestly rather have seen them in the 50-70ish range? I think it is important that they take babysteps, and not kneejerk changes that could have a massive influence.
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18 hours ago, MeSmashDaNoobs said:
hello!
deamon prince of slaanesh have a ability that lets him attack before the first chosen enemy unit in a combat phase.
if 2 different units is 3" away and want to pile in my friend says i need to attack the first unit that he attacks with.
i say i can choose to attack any unit i want inside 3" of me.
who is right amd who is wrong?
please help me with this.
In the future, when people call you out for being wrong and they believe they are right, just ask them to point it out in the rules where it says X. Usually helps for me, since they have trouble finding the thing and they literally just go off based on something they heard somewhere.
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I realize this would add to the customization of the army list, but I personally find it an unnecessary change. To me a part of AoS' charm is the simplicity of the game really. If you want more models to secure a 20+ model bonus (as an example), you are probably better off gunning for 30 anyways, rather than 23, as a single spell would easily "bracket" your unit in the case of bringing so few extra models.
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11 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
No, you are correct. I was just going by the baseline stats. With rerolls to hit and wound they will kill 23 daemonettes on average. With rerolls to wound only it's 15.5 and 17.5 with hit only.
Sure, I'm not suggesting that two Bastiladons can't kill 30 Daemonettes in one go. They clearly can.
I see a lot of posts (not just here, but in every Warhammer group that I've visited) that take the form of "X opponent totally stomped me, how can I possibly beat this list?" and more often than not when the person actually described what happened in the game it's clear that their opponent rolled really well.
It's foolish to generalize from "I lost this game in a dramatic fashion" to "I can't ever beat this list" in pretty much any situation, but it's particularly foolish if you already have clear evidence that the results of that one game are driven at least in significant part by luck.
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@Kasper -- back to the original question of how to beat that list. I agree with others here insofar as a list like this is going to be a difficult matchup for most Slaanesh armies simply because the Bastiladon shooting is very good against our daemons, and we are very daemon focused and we lack ranged to clear out those screens or pick off the key support units. There are a couple of things that this Seraphon list is weak to. Let's look at how it functions. The base list you described has 1700 points tied up in the Slann Starmaster, Astrolith Bearer, 2 Bastiladon, 4 Razordons, 1 unit of Skink Handlers, the Engine of the Gods, and 3x10 skinks. There might be more skinks than that, of course, but there isn't much room in the list for anything else major.
- All of the offensive punch is tied up in the shooting, and that shooting really needs to stay close to both the EoTG and the Astrolith Bearer. Without the rerolls to hit and wound the list just doesn't do enough damage to be a serious threat. The Razordons also only have a short range of 12" and the EoTG range is not that icnredible at 20".
- The list is 6 drops at an absolute minimum, meaning you should be able to get the choice of first turn.
- Basically everything in the list is defensively inefficient except the Skinks. Bastiladons are OK against regular damage if they get the reroll save buff. Otherwise their defensive efficiency is horrible. The EoTG is OK with rerolls to save but horrible without.
- Combatwise, the list is most vulnerable on the first turn if you are going first. If you can make a legitimate alpha strike, you can get one turn of combat in before they get to enable their reroll saves.
- Aside from that, the list is very vulnerable to any opponent that is prepared to play the objectives. They have to keep the vast majority of their resources in the same place, and their offensive output is not very impressive. Therefore if you can get to the objectives and have enough defensive efficiency they can't really hope to win. Even if you let their Slann summon all game long they won't amass enough to dislodge you until the late game and by then you will be too far ahead.
Given this analysis, I think you can make the matchup favorable in two ways. One is to go for a full on horde approach and just put as many bodies as you can on the board. Non daemons are preferable, but even daemons are fine if you put enough of them on the board.
The other (and imo better) approach is to focus on a Depraved Drove list. For one, this is probably the best way to flood the board win non-daemons. Marauders and Hellstriders are nice, but they can't compete with Ungors, Bestigors, Centigors, Bullgors etc.
You also get a very legitimate shot at presenting a serious T1 threat. Ungor Raiders can get into range very easily and clear out the Skink screens, giving a big unit of Bullgors or Bestigors the chance to take a boat ride courtesy of Lauchon. The 12" boat plus a 6" move and run+charge should be plenty to get a T1 charge off unless your opponent deploys way back in a corner. If they do that, they are basically conceding anyway as you can take over the board instead of alpha-striking and they will never deal damage quickly enough to dislodge you in time. Depending on what you get access to, 30 charging Bestigors has a very good chance of killing 2 out of the 3 behemoths on turn 1, which will be game over. Even if you only kill one of them it's probably game-over, especially if it's the EoTG.
Thanks a lot for the in-depth writeup.
When I say Bastilladons wipe out 30 Daemonettes, it's probably more likely around the 20-25 mark. But honestly there isn't much of difference between him clearing a unit or you losing 25, since the last will run to battleshock. With how important CPs are, it feels kinda ass to "waste" a CP on 5-7 Daemonettes. I swear I haven't ever rolled a 1 on the battleshock with my Daemonettes..
I feel like the result is the same every time I play that army, and as you said yourself, killing around 25 is about average, so I can kind of count on that happening each shooting phase. I don't think Seraphon players bring a similiar army and doesn't go for the Thunderquake batallion? I haven't played one at least without it. Being able to reroll everything is honestly just insane vs. chaos daemons. I spend the first turn or two chewing through Skinks, and eventually he gets a double turn where the Bastilladons clean up so much.
Having no proper magic or ranged attack to pick off key characters feels like a huge disadvantage against that specific army/list. I guess I could experiment with spell portals and more endless spells. Also, looking back, not giving my KoS thermal cloak was a big mistake and really limited my threat/summoning range for some ambush potential. As mentioned there was also a huge amount of terrain, which really funneled my army. We played shifting objectives, and he managed to have a real good location where his Bastilladons could hit units attempting to cap either of the bottom/middle ones.
I'm abit stubborn and don't really want to rely on Depraved Drove. I'm OK with it simply being a super uphill battle with "pure" Slaanesh units, I just wanted to know if I was missing something super obvious, or if it was a kinda difficult matchup. Everyone on the forums just makes it sound so easy. Push forward and generate 100s of DP, where as that isn't my experience at all fighting similiar lists as the Seraphon stuff and other armies spamming 1 W models.
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Just now, swarmofseals said:
Yeah, that wasn't factoring in the rerolls. See my follow-up post for more analysis.
Yeah I didnt notice the previous one and was about to edit
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9 hours ago, swarmofseals said:
2 Solar Engines should kill 11.67 daemonettes per round of shooting on average. If your opponent was regularly killing 30 in one go then he got very, very lucky.
With all hits and wounds being rerollable? 3 damage a piece due ro Chaos.
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3 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:
I think shooting heavy armies (with good screens) are always going to be our worst matchups, but your not doing yourself any favours with all those Daemonettes. Annoyingly Daemonettes are just really bad, they are expensive, squishy, don't hit particularly hard and worse of all, they are relatively slow. Those 820 points could be
-40 Helstriders: much faster, better save and aren't daemons (so less effected by anti-chaos stuff). Or
-a Beast Battalion, Bray Shaman and 120 Ungor (30 points more including the battalion),: faster, harder to kill, better at screening, come with a caster, less drops and comparable damage output. Or go for minimum Ungors and some Beastigors to break people's faces.
-60 Marauders and 460 points to spend on other stuff.
Since out armies tend to spend a lot of points on heros, who are always easier to kill than the same points of units, you need to make sure the non-hero part of your list can pull it's weight and control the board, so you can pin enemies into a part of the board.
Annoyingly we are in the position where we have one decent battleline (Helstriders) unless you add in some Beasts or Slaves to Darkness. Against lists who can shoot down our heros, you need to have some tough and hard hitting backup to support them. Against lots of armies it's a non-issue because your heros do all the heavy lifting and the army feels powerful.
If your stuck for models you can change up your artefacts to help: Gryph Feather charm on an exalted chariot makes it -2 to hit from shooting once a unit is near by, making it near immune to regular shooting (and an extra point of movement is no harm).
I have thought about trying Ungors, since I already have some Beastmen. However I was never fan of mass Ungor spam, so I primarily got Bullgors and Tzaangors/Enlightened etc. My plan was to focus on "normal" Slaanesh units. My list was certainly not optimized. Looking back I would have gone for Thermal Rider's Cloak on the KoS. Against shooting armies, having 2 KoS might be superior too as it divides his attention.
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2 hours ago, Kramer said:
what about seekers? their speed should at least force your opponent to better protect the slann if not you should be able to reach it. With a bit of luck 10 should be able to kill it.
To be fair we just took a table someone else played prior to us, and they had put up an absurd amount of terrain pieces
I think we had around 10 sizable pieces on a normal sized table, which is obviously a huge advantage to him, since it is so easy to create road blocks.
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How do you guys deal with Seraphon? I have loads of issues with this matchup. He runs 1 Engine of the Gods, 2 Bastilladons, 1 bearer and 4 Razordons, Slaan and then screens of Skinks. He also used Shackles to lock down units while they got pinned and shot off the table.
I ran with 1 Keeper, 2 Exalted Chariots, 1 Epitome, then 2x 30 Daemonettes and 1x 20 Daemonettes.
I can't ever get to the Slaan and the Bearer, they just chill all game. It didn't help he got 2 arcane terrains right next to each other. Each round of shooting the Bastilladons wipe out 1 unit of 30 Daemonettes quite easily. 4 Razordons took out my Keeper in 1 round too etc.
I think I approach the matchup all wrong, but I have always had issues with this list and can't ever break the wall. It's especially bad when he gets a double turn with the 2 Bastilladons.
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Have anyone tried Syll'esske or is it really that bad? What attack would you use first - The whp? Then rerolls on axe?
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5 hours ago, King Taloren said:
Those don’t count for the unsaved wounds that this is looking for. Those are not technically saves but damage preventions you have to roll to stop all the damage totaled from the attack.
So you are saying you cant use the extra saves some armies get to prevent the D3? Why not? Step 4 is determining damage, which is before the extra saves.
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On 5/31/2019 at 12:50 PM, ByronicHero said:
So, provided a single wound is unsaved it is a guaranteed D3 wounds. Understood. Many thanks.
It is the step after saves are done, but before endless death and similiar abilities are in affect.
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3 hours ago, Lord Slyght said:
I have a question re the mirror.
The text says the damage is triggered after any move by an enemy unit. Does 'move' just mean movement in the movement phase, or does it also include charges and pile-ins? (i.e. it could be triggered three times a turn!).
Seems overly powerful if so but i think the scope of what counts as a 'move' has been covered in FAQs somewhere, albeit this particular issue wasn't in the HoS FAQ.
The GH refers to all of those as “moves”, where as the ordinary move is “normal move”. The warscroll reads as move, so I would guess it is any kind of movement. I havent actually played with the mirror yet (getting mine tomorrow!)
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12 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:
Its not really a big deal, they will just decline the challenge and take D3 mortals, then they go on their merry way doing whatever they want. If it said 'if they decline the challenge they suffer D3 mortal wounds and cannot charge this phase' that would be a great ability. As it is, it is just a little chip damage to one character and only does more if an opponent would be foolish enough to accept the challenge when you have screened.
Yeah I don't know what I was thinking haha, obviously they will just decline.
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So if you bring Shalaxi and bubble wrap her, meaning a hero can't actually get into combat and fight her, you've effectively shut down the hero? Seems a little silly.
All in all nothing too surprising tbh. Most of them were kinda obvious, but it is always nice to clear things out. Especially that Enrapturess nonsense people were talking about.
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10 minutes ago, Smooth criminal said:
I think robbing opponent of their turn to fight is the major issue.
By itself 1 CP for another pile-in is a fair trade I think, Aos does need some resource management. If all CP do is reroll charges and ignore morale that's not much of a resource management.
Now when stuff like "attack first", "attack with 4 thirsters one after another", "all my dudes attack first", "all your dudes attack last" etc. come into play the only interactivity AoS ever had gets thrown out the window and we're playing a melee version of 40k aka Me roll turn me alpha strike: the game.
True, but I also think CP generation is a topic of discussion. If it is too easy to generate multiple CPs a turn, then management is thrown out the window too, even if it is meaningful decisions you spend them on.
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11 hours ago, Grailstorm said:
The armies are clearly not balanced around the fact they can fight twice. The points cost for all units are roughly the same as before the ability was introduced. In some cases, they are lower.
It wasn’t my intention to compare Ironjawz as an army to other, newer armies.
I was just using them to illustrate the power of command abilities. I’m not complaining about the power of Khorne, Slaanesh or FEC. I’m bemoaning the fact that this specific command ability is ruining the game.
The Megaboss command ability is great – and was one of the better combat command abilities in the game until the addition of attack 2x. Now, this new ability nukes all previous combat command abilities.
+1 attack? +1 to hit? These are nothing in comparison.
The fact that some armies can spend 1 CP to use such a hugely powerful ability, and some armies cannot, is the definition of imbalance. Especially when the reward is 2, 3, 4, or even 5x as good.
Imagine Nighthaunt could make Bladegheists attack 2x rather than adding one attack.
Imagine Ironjawz could make Brutes attack 2x rather than adding 1 attack.
When the cost of an ability is the same, it needs to be roughly equivalent to the reward.
I completely understand, and agree with your view, I just don't think you can do a 1:1 comparison at all, you need to factor in alligiance abilities, stat profiles etc.
I personally don't think the double attack is a fun mechanic, because it creates a situation where the enemy wont play with his toys at all, despite doing a calculated charge. But then again, it isn't fun being boxed in by Endless Spells by Skaven, meanwhile you are shot to pieces. I think we just have to get used to that almost every army in the future can do something bunkers and have their own sort of "oompf". Is it good for the game? Probably not. Does it create a fun experience? I don't think so.
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11 hours ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:
To be honest, if you paired it with locus it is pretty much a doble activation in a lot of scenarios.
If you are talking 1 unit vs 1 unit combat, sure. But if you have multiple units in combat with a KoS, it is much different.
I'm curious though, you mention WDR and talk about looking at warscrolls specifically. I'll admit I'm not certain how exactly you calculate WDR, but it sounds like it is purely based on the specific warscroll?
I think we had around 10 sizable pieces on a normal sized table, which is obviously a huge advantage to him, since it is so easy to create road blocks. 
Why do you like your army?
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
Beasts of Chaos - I really liked how they were the manifistation of Chaos and just wanted to tear down Order and ****** because why not. They also somewhat resemble Vikings which I'm a huge fan of. Savages running around rampant through new territories and leaving ruin in their wake. Unfortunately I just didn't like how they played on the table and I felt I was forced down 2 different routes: Tzaangors or painting roughly 200 Ungors. Neither path was a choice for me. I was also really disappointed that Gargants, Chimeras etc. weren't more viable. I wish the monsters played a bigger aspect in the faction.
Slaanesh - I really just wanted a new army after my distaste of how Beasts of Chaos actually played on the table. I was really close to picking Fyreslayers because they were new/updated, but they were too much alike imo. All of them half naked fiery dwarves. I was afraid of a burnout from the painting. Slaanesh was announced and I instantly fell in love with the whole "pain and pleasure" deal. I feel like every week theres a new list doing really well at tournaments etc and the army doesn't feel pigeonholed one route or another. You can focus on multiple Keepers and tons of heroes. You can go crazy with Daemonettes. There is the Depraved Drove which includes BoC (hey I can use my previous army with the new one!) etc. Really refreshing to have a different army every week. The new sculpts are amazing - Absolutely love the Keeper etc. I was a bit afraid that the faction would somewhat suck because Slaanesh has been a bit abandoned in the past but hey - Guess it didn't turn out too bad after all!