[Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1]

10 hours ago, whiskeytango said:

That's a fair point, but I think without a "clarifying" FAQ, the most logical stance is that if it says "counts as slain", then they do indeed, count as being slain, and thus split. 

The core rules for "slain models" and "battleshock" read significantly different. The text for "slain models" reads that the models are slain as in dead, then removed from the table. For battleshock the rules read that the models are removed from the table (not slain/dead), but following that they count as slain - For  the purpose of kill points etc. 

 

[Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1]

8 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

The same reason why an attorney who finds a new niche in written laws becomes praised by their firm, or a racing engineer becomes a hero for figuring out how they can shave another 10 pounds off a car - it's natural to look for a competitive edge within the rule-set given to them. Competition breeds creative thinking, pure and simple. 

I think there is a significant difference between people playing this hobby, which is ultimately to have fun and socialize, and people doing extradoinary work within their field, which is ultimately driven by earning higher salaries/bonuses.

[AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion]

25 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Gorkamorkas warcry! 

Wont Hermdar CA ignore that and have them fight once at the start? 

[AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion]

Just now, Arkahn said:

Waaagh banner ! It is so strong in big waaagh !

As an exemple on a MK 8/2+/2+ reroll 1/-2/3!!

I find it a lot of fun on a unit of 6 pigs  If you pop the Waagh ability for +1 attack and the Waagh Banner for another +1 attack, you're looking at almost 75 attacks from the 6 pigs, hitting on 2s, wounding on 2s (with reroll 1s from banner), half at -1 and 2 damage each. 

How do you deal with stuff like Plague Monks or Fyreslayers? Wont the Fyreslayers just fight first and kill your stuff? Plague Monks are also cheaper, so feels like a bad trade when they get to fight back upon death. As said I haven't fought either of those lists, so wouldn't know the outcome.

[AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion]

1 minute ago, Arkahn said:

It is the exact same list i'm playing actually and I have great succes ! 

Already beat a standard 40 monks / 6 stormfiends Skaven's list and I will do a tournament this week-end. 

I can report how it goes. 

The one with Waagh Banner or the second with Wurrgog?  

[General Strategy: Beating Upcoming Shooting Meta]

20 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

The first trick in creating a spreadsheet of numbers is realizing that the numbers are not absolute.  There is no spreadsheet that will say "this will win you the game every time".  

This is always where people start to argue.  they will hone in on scores on a spreadsheet and then say "yeah but you say this score is this, but I have seen that unit lose before so your spreadsheet is wrong and math cannot be used".  That has nothing to do with what you use a tool like this for.

If you know a units base offense and defense capabilities, and know how to score movement, that gives you a solid baseline to use judgement on the other areas of the game you cannot properly math and determine odds and probabilities and maximize them in your favor.

If you are going into a game with an army that has a big difference in its offense and defense and movement scores vs your opponent, you will be having a very difficult game.

Its also something that nearly every top tournament player already does and is a key component in how they seem to easily know matchups that other people struggle with.  

The roster that the OP has provided has a substantially lower overall score than the others he posted, which falls in line with his observation that he is struggling against them as well, because he should be.  The spreadsheet indicates he will be having very difficult games.

That is quite interesting.

As an IJ player, when I look at the BW list compared to the Skaven one, I don't see how the Skaven list will win. Seems like a fairly straight forward match with no threats the BW list can't handle. 

[General Strategy: Beating Upcoming Shooting Meta]

7 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  A mastermind spreadsheet lmao.  I'm not remotely getting into a math debate on these forums, some of you and your strict adherence to math not mattering makes it not worth it.

Haha, fair enough man. I'm just genuinely curious how you determine if it is weak or not, just like that.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Stompa89 said:

3 more starterpacks then 😯

 

I bought 4  I haven't seen lists running 3 or 4 Warchanters, but you could probably kitbash/convert them to Weirdnobs or even a Megaboss on foot to get max value out of the boxes. 

I mean you can do it without 4x3 pigs, but the general playstyle of dual MK is to shove them in your opponents face turn 1 and start chewing through stuff. If you win the double turn you get to slap him in the hero phase, then the combat phase. Most of his army will be dead by now.

Slow units don't really benefit you, so to play optimally you want the pigs to run along and join in on the fun. 

[Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1]

10 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

Yes because every army can just dish out 100+ wounds in 1 turn, especially after being shot at by 60+ 3+ 4+ -1 1 shots and however many flamers you want to get in range. At -1 to hit of course, good thing you also have free reign on objectives too.

Have you never played another tome to notice the difference in power here?

Destiny Dice is one hell of a drug.

The fact that DD no longer autopasses battleshock for Horrors is gonna be quite a big thing. You often don't need to remove the entire unit in 1 round of combat due to battleshock, unless the Tzeentch player is keeping a hero super close. Even a DD of 1 shouldn't matter since you have likely removed the banner bearer. 

In the cases where Tzeentch throws 1 unit of 20 Horrors, he will keep you back in turn 1 but they will all die to battleshock since he wont have another hero within range. With "only" 1 teleport he wont be able to make another layer and risk some severe punch if you win the double. 

[General Strategy: Beating Upcoming Shooting Meta]

16 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Well based off of my spreadsheets, you are significantly weaker than your opponents.  So that is why you are going to be struggling.

Must be some mastermind spreadsheet to determine that. What makes you think the IJ list is weak? The Skaven list doesn't seem "significantly stronger".

[AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion]

Been running a heavy combat focused (largely IJ) BW army with great success for a while, although nobody in my local play Skaven or Nurgle with Plague Monks and we really only have 1 guy with Fyreslayers, so there really haven't been many matchups where the green boys can't munch the enemy in melee.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 129

I'm starting to want to participate in tournaments where there will be a much bigger range of armies/lists, and because of this I thought of leaning a bit more into magic with a Wurrgog. I'm a bit hestitant how much you should invest into Endless Spells though and worry it will gnaw too much into the overall wounds of the army. Is the Wurrgog fine on his own, or do you want to extend his range? I have thought of this list below. Alternatively you could skip out on the Balewind and Spellportal and upgrade the 5 Ardboyz to a unit of 10. Maybe replace the Spellportal with Purple Sun against stuff like OBR/Fyreslayers.

Overall I feel like the rest of the army is really set in stone - Both MK and 6 Pigs buffed will chew through pretty much anything. I love the threat of the teleport from the Shaman and I really feel he easily makes his points back by how much people spend on zoning their side of the board. The Ardboyz are largely screens to prevent alphastrikes, but are also there to run forward and chew through the enemys chaff, forcing their big key units to come out and play, then get countercharged by MK/6 pigs and die. Everything just feels good and works on the table. In general I'm a very defensive player and you will likely never see either the MK or 6 pigs be shot up the board in turn 1 - They will wait behind the screens usually.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Brutish Cunning
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
- 1x Gorkamorka Glyph Bearers

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
- 1x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers

Battalions
Ironfist (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120

 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

17 minutes ago, Stompa89 said:

Well when i first have two maw-crushas😅 hah. But i have seen some guys play with the last list, they must have dropped the battalion then or done something wrong. Isnt the shaman good for the teleport spell? Hand of Gork.

From what I have seen, people with double Maw Krusha typically run 4x3 pigs, 2 MK, 2 warchanter and then the ironfist batallion and CP.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

10 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

It would be more trouble than it’s worth. I own the blood bowl team. They’re mono pose with 2 repeating poses per lineman. It’s also just a totally different aesthetic. 
 

it could be done I’m sure... but it would be a ton of effort to the end result to mostly be just “why?”

Their armor etc. just looks a lot more defined. The way the Bloodbowl team is made makes them look a lot more in line with our other models. I really don't like the look of the Ardboyz. Their armor is way too smooth for me.  Their pose also looks very static - Reminds me of warhammer fantasy where every unit was rank and file. 

 

Edit: Looking at them now on google, their armor plates also look very smooth and not bruised like Pigs, Brutes or Megabosses.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

30 minutes ago, fez_the_druid said:

What is this called in IKEA?

Its called "KVISSLE" where I live  

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

Has anyone used the Bloodbowl guys and kitbashed them to be Ardboyz? I looked at a box the other day and was really tempted. I just feel like they will stand out too much compared to the rather static and dull look of normal Ardboyz. I have like 65 normal guys, so feels bad having to throw them all away if they don't really match together at all.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

What is Green Visions?

Shaman Weirdnob specific artefact = 4+ in hero phase to gain a CP.

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

5 hours ago, Luzgurbel said:

Ye, I wrote that before I edited it and put the new list.

 

Anyways, With the MK moving 24 I think he can be close enough the Brutes to give them the charge reroll, I think. Furthermore, if Im not misunderstooding the rule, I can teleport the unit and then mighty ravager' them, right?

Yeah thats why I prefer GGs or MK for the charge. Teleport them 12.1” away and then move 12” or 9” = 3” away from enemy.

If you do it on Brutes or Ardboyz, you are really only gaining 1” (4 movement, so from 12 to 8” away) instead of teleport 9” away. Likely better trying to charge with MD in the hero phase.

At least with Ardboyz you get +2, so you are looking at a 6” charge. Feels more reliable.

[A Suggestion on Balance]

But what exactly is balance? If AoS had 3 armies of pure rock-paper-scissor, each army would have a “perfect win % and be balanced” according to stats, but the gameplay experience would be onesided and suck for players.

That is why I dont give all that much for stats or win %, even though it is always fun to see a new army going straight up to 75% win rate. Some armies are very oppresive but are being kept in check by certain armies when you look at win %, but does that  really matter?

The above is obviously an oversimplification, but we have all heard the comments that the solution to X army is “just shoot the heroes off the table” - What if your army doesnt have any shooting?

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

red on red feels too much. White, Green and Red are complimentary. Blue might clash. Black is kind of basic. Could do a purple MK? Idk any suggestions? 

With the introduction of mount traits, you can really draw inspiration from that. With Weird ‘un you could always make up some fluff that he ate a Lord of Change from Tzeentch which would explain that his skin/scales turned into some funky color. 😅

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

7 hours ago, Luzgurbel said:

Why discuss GG/Ardboys/Brutes when you can have the best of all? The big unit of Brutes ready to be teleported + the huge movement of GGs and MK.

 

I even thought on split 1 of the unit of the Ardboys into 2x5 in order to grab objectives.

I dont know if you mean to split the current 15 man squad of Ardboyz into further 5s or if you mean you already split a 10 into 2x5 - Just keep in mind only 10+ count as battleline.

Also fyi you get 1 banner or glyph per 5, so you have to choose in a 5 man squad.

Im personally not a fan of teleporting such a huge unit of Brutes. Rolling a 8+ on 2 dice is rather risky, and if they fail the charge you likely wont have a hero around to reroll it, meaning they will be stranded and die to a countercharge.

If I teleport a unit, I want to pretty much ensure it gets into combat, hence why I pick the MK, GGs (Ironfist champ) or Ardboyz as the target.

[Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1]

4 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Ehh I wouldnt say most....Stormcast, Seraphon, Mawtribes via Skal/Hunter, Fyreslayers via Runesmiter, BoC, DoK, now KO, Nighthaunt, LoN(Legion of Night), and Sylvaneth all have build in teleports that dont cost anything other then units/battalions. I probably missed some. The only ones that are dependent are the spell related ones and there is actually fewer of those then the built in/free ones. 

 Even KO now can do the exact same thing. Pull from combat and vanish. The teleporting around isnt the issue. 

I like the idea of reducing range or number of attacks. Maybe adjusting points for Changehost, Flamers, or Pinks

The old Changehost worked like this so that could be a good fix as well.

I feel like you just took parts of my post out of context and decided to comment on it, why? 

I'll admit I'm not familiar with all of them, but many of them can't be redeployed whilst in combat, or it is some kind of ambush ability from boardedge. 

I don't feel that's a fair comparison at all, since there are multiple ways to counter those plays (deployement, zoning out, putting a certain unit into combat etc. etc.). KO can be countered - If you deal enough damage they can't redeploy. Hell, if you surround their boat and destroy it, they lose not only the boat but the entire unit inside due to lack of space to deploy.

But anyways, as I wrote in the post - 2 free redeployments by themselves might not be the end of the world, despite it being incredibly strong and nobody else got such powerful tools - It is when all the other stuff is layered ontop that creates a monstrosity. 

[Tzeentch win Cancon and the GW GT Heat 1]

It is a combination of things that makes it nasty.

Most teleports are depending on a cast or similar, or you can't redeploy units that are in combat. With Changehost you can just pick 2 units at will and even stuck in combat, leaving your opponent with no counterplay against the mechanic. This on its own probably wouldn't be "too bad" - Seraphon can do it too - But then you factor in all the other stuff Tzeentch has. 

Add in destiny dice to secure a charge after a redeployment/teleport. Horrors being frankly insane right now is yet another layer of madness, especially with the current rules where you can keep bringing Pinks back despite all the Pinks in the unit being dead and there are only Blues/Brims left. Then you have Flamers with 18" reach, which means you simply can't screen/deploy some key units/monsters out of reach on the majority of battleplans.

 

They don't have to neuter all the abilities/units, but stuff like reducing the range on Flamers would do a lot while keeping them interesting and spicy. Making it so you can't bring back Pinks unless there is at least 1 Pink remaining in the unit would do a lot. Changing the redeployment so it has to be within X" of the LoC would do a lot. Etc. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

1 hour ago, Dolinarius said:

hey guys, 

I got some IJ noob questions, maybe someone can help me out here. 

1. do you usually use the megaboss on mawcrusher or Gordrakk?

2. do you take the MBoMc as your general or one of the smaller heroes so you can bring the big boy in combat?

3. how do you arm your brutes best? Speaking of brutes, I like the models, I will field them and use them as monster/hero hunter right? It does seem smart to combine them with hand of gork?

4. Ardboyz banner - the +2 Bravery one seems a good choice, right?

5. is there a general tactic with which i can start with? I'm planning to use the MBoMc in 1500p game upwards, for smaller games I'm fielding the unmounted one. The core of the army are 2 units of ardboy 10-15 models and one unit of 6 GG. Ofcourse there will be 1-2 warchanters and one shaman. 

 

thx

1. I prefer the normal Megaboss on Maw Krusha since you can give him a command trait and artefact if you go no-clan.

Gordrakk is awesome, but unfortunately he just isn't tanky enough and his extra damage against heroes is in my book worthless. Most tanky heroes got an extra save against Mortal Wounds, and heroes that don't have it are usually not tanky enough to withstand the damage from a normal Megaboss on Maw Krusha. Even against stuff like Archaon or Nagash, giving your normal guy a Metalrippers Klaw will put them at 5-6+ saves. Meanwhile he will also be a beast against tanky units. Alternatively you can make him super tanky with either Ignax Scales or Ethereal Amulet. 

2. Always the general - Giving him Brutish Cunning is amazing. Alternatively Ironclad if you go for Ignax Scales. 

3. Choppas usually unless you go for huge units (10-15), then you might want additional reach instead. I wouldn't pair them with Hand of Gork since getting a 8" charge is unlikely, unless you can proc "Mad as Hell". 

4. You can field 1 Glyph OR 1 Banner per 5 Ardboyz. So in a unit of 10 you can have both. In a unit of 15 you can have 2 Banners and 1 Glyph etc. If you fancy 5 man units I would prefer the Banner for +2 bravery rather than -1 to your opponent. 

5. Despite many thinking that Ironjawz is just an all-out/alpha/turn 1 charge army, I find that there are many ways you can play the army. If you just go all out in turn 1 I feel you really live or die at the mercy of the double turn roll-off. Ironjawz probably lend itself towards the more aggressive style, where as Big Waagh probably lends itself towards the slightly slower pace. 

[AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion]

On 1/29/2020 at 2:59 PM, 123lac said:

real living breathing seraphon instead of star daemons

Pretty much this.

I predict the tome having lore that makes it possible for your Seraphon to be starborn/living memories, but also "real" Seraphon that runs around in the mortal realms permamently. 

[AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion]

22 hours ago, Lanoss said:

So yes, brutes could be better to make them more elite. But they’re certainly not garbage and are definitely worth their points. 

I think its wrong to call Brutes "garbage", and it depends on how you use them. Ardboyz are incredible and offer a lot of versitility and imo. they are slightly better than Brutes, but that doesn't make Brutes "garbage".