tman3257
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Posts posted by tman3257
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4 hours ago, Kamose said:
So just to clarify, are you saying that the lowest possible value on a die roll, regardless of modifiers, is 1?
Examples:
Roll 2 and Rend -1 =1
Roll 2 and Rend -2 = 1
Roll 2 and Rend -3 = 1
The modified dice roll is then compared to the bastiladon's save which is still 1+ and therefore it passes.
Am I getting that right? If so, I think I've been playing save rolls wrong this whoooooole time!
To be fair, it's never mattered before this. This is the first time something has a natural 1+ save. Nothing else in the game can boast that. Sure you can get to an effective 1+ with modifiers, but remember, those modify the DICE roll.
This is the first time this interaction has mattered.
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10 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:
Which is pretty much what I said would happen.
I actually dropped my cauldron believe it or not, have a medusa general now. The lack of shooting basically makes it a wash and I found the 5+/5++ is just better than any other combination of temple 4+/6++. But, I had already built all most models with shields, not sure what I would do if I was playing double dagger this whole time.
edit* Also shields help with the going last from locus and lets you not be so concerned about getting charges, and lets you just take up aggressive defensive positions on the board. And they kill themselves in their turn so they don't summon until you have had a turn to change your positioning.This has not been my experience so far with concerns to the armor save. 5+ or 6+ doesn't seem to matter a whole lot vs Slaanesh. It's the Fanatical 5++ that really does the work. Keepers have a minimum of -1 rend and the claws, which do the most damage, would negate a 5+ armor save entirely. Being a 4+ isn't a whole ton better usually, as that's just relegated to a 6+ on the claws.
Facing an enemy with little to no rend and the shields are fantastic. 4+/5++ is amazing. Unfortunately the biggest threats out there right now are commonly -2 rend.
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1 minute ago, Lucentia said:
I played against quite a lot of shooting/magic heavy armies that were able to whittle down large horde units before they could necessarily get into combat, so often it wasn't a case of comparing 30 witches to 30 sisters, but rather 10-15, where the Witches will often come out on top. But of course if you are playing, like, Slaanesh or something then you're more likely to have mostly full squads hanging around when it comes to charge time! Also note I was playing without the Hagg Nar re-rolls, so my expectations on damage output were probably a little miscalibrated!
That's fair. Shooting skaven is strong but I'm finding it rougher to play in the meta right now, but that's a topic for the skaven forum.
Hagg Narr would likely help with Devoted Disciples as well with being able to get more witches onto the front lines alive vs shooting. I've found the difference between a 6++ and a 5++ to be massive, especially when Blessing of Khaine is active. The other day I had Allariele smash a unit of sisters for 20 damage, only for me to lose a grand total of 4.
But your comment brings me to another build variation I've been toying with. Cauldron Guard with 30/10 Witch Aelves and 30 SoS which sounds similar to what you were running. You'd have to sadly lose the Medusa but you'd gain another artifact, Iron Circlet likely. I think its probably a better list overall but worse vs Slaanesh/FEC where combat needs to be heavily controlled. Losing the extra caster does hurt sometimes though.
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4 minutes ago, Lucentia said:
I ran a similar list at EGGS last weekend, but substituting one of the Sisters units for 20 Witches and 10 Lifetakers (Also I was using Khailebron so my cauldron took Crimson Rejuvenation over Blessing of Khaine). I gave Morathi Mindrazor too, both as a backup and because she often ends up operating independently.
My theory was the same as yours, Sisters seem a solid counter to stuff like Slaanesh, Gristlegore, etc. Unfortunately I didn't get much opportunity to test that in practice cos I pretty much only played against Skaven lists! I only managed 2/5 wins, but my losses were all very close ones, so I think there is some merit to the list. Being able to dictate the combat order to a degree with the Sisters is very valuable, but I did find myself missing the damage output of Witches, in two separate games the Sisters failed to put out enough damage to kill of key units where I suspect the extra witch attacks might have sealed the deal.
Skaven can be rough! I should know since I play them as well lol. There are so many list varieties that are all at least semi-viable. I'd confidently say they have the largest variety of good units of any book in the game. Luck being on their side can ****** you (or vice versa) as well.
Double Mindrazor was something I was thinking about as well. It seems like a little bit of a waste but if you really need it early on Morathi does have the +1 to cast it compared to the Medusa and against armies like skaven with plenty of denies and low bravery it can be a game winning spell. I get the idea of the shroud of despair + mindrazor combo but it seems pretty edge case. You'd also have to get very lucky to drop any of the scary bravery 10 units (pretty much everything FEC and Slaanesh and LoN/LoG) down to 7 with it. I'd feel much more confident in the Medusa if I could fit in a battalion and the Shadow Stone. Sadly with the way our points are now it's just not possible to have all of that at once anymore.
I've thought about the damage difference concern but I'm curious if 30 blobs of witches would actually output all that much more than 30 SoS w/knives in practice. If we take a reasonable model frontage number of 10 and compare the two units the number of attacks should be identical. Assuming 20 are within 1" range (2 rows) that is 80 witch attacks and 60 sister attacks. Sisters would get a 3rd rank though, bumping them up another 20 attacks to the 80. Granted the math starts to shift one way or another when start getting more or less models in (though SoS should always be able to get at least as many, often more, models as WE due to higher pile in) and WE will always do more damage if you can get 100% of the models in (a rare occurrence for me when the unit is full at least).
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34 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:
Do skaven get their leadership bonus vs ours for purpose of mind razor?
No.
Their bonus only applies during battleshock.
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So with the dominance of Slaanesh currently and the WE point increases I've been thinking Sisters might be the way to go right now. The ability to essentially ignore their "go last" ability by running to within 6" and piling in later is huge. They'd still get to swing but not until after you have, giving you a chance to take it out or severely weaken it. I'd love to fit in a Slaughter Troupe but it doesn't seem possible currently to fit in all the hero support you need, plus morathi, plus 70 infantry and make it under 2k (comes to 2020 iirc). So I've been thinking of going with a battalion.
The artifact will be missed, but the increase in drops I'm not sure will make a huge difference right now. Both Slaanesh and FEC have a very low drop count, likely lower than a Slaughter Troupe or Cauldron Guard list. I think Morathi needs to stay because she's so key against KoS.
Proposed list is as follows:
Morathi
- Shroud of Despair
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood
- General: Devoted Disciples
-Blessing of Khaine
-Gryph-Feather Charm
Hag Queen
-Catechism of Murder
Hag Queen
-Sacrament of Blood
Bloodwrack Medusa
-Mindrazor
Sisters of Slaughter x30
-Knives
Sisters of Slaughter x30
-Knives
Witch Aelves
-Knives
Khinerai Heartrenders x5
Malevolent Maelstrom (10 pts leftover, optional)
50 pts for 1 extra CP.
All knives to make up for the swap from Witch Aelves to Sisters of Slaughter. A lot of damage these days also comes from mortal wounds or high rend anyway, so not AS worried about having the bucklers. Bloodwrack Medusa for the extra caster, I plan on having Morathi in angry snek form most of the match. Gryph Feather on the Cauldron for obvious reasons. I feel the extra starting CP is mandatory just in case one of your 30 sisters units sustains heavy causalities before they can drink the kool-aid on top of turn 1. Heartrenders for scenario threat.Any thoughts or suggestions?
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55 minutes ago, Tali182 said:
I get that in from an offense perspective 20 spites would do a lot better if they all get to attack but you would need up to 640mm (20 bases) of frontage to get them all into combat.
Not quite, You can squeeze some in between the gaps to swing as long as you get as close as possible with the front line. All 20 is a pipe dream but it's not too hard to get a decent number in if you have a good charge.
That being said, I think people are overvaluing them a bit. I think they're good yes, but not sure yet if they're worth taking in 20 strong. Need to experiment more.
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So I ran a Kurnoth heavy Winterleaf list a couple of times this week to good success.
Arch-Revenant
Spirit of Durthu (General) (Frozen Kernel)
Branchwraith (Throne of Vines) (Spellsong Staff)
Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony) (The autocast Gem)
Spite Revenant x20
Spite Revenant x5
Spite Revenant x5Scythe Kurnoth Hunters x6
Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3
Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3Free Spirits
Outcasts
Vengeful Skullroots (had 40 leftover points)
5 drops
2 CPMy gameplan was typically to set up my initial forest as far up the board as possible. I'd attempt to summon a woods in so I could teleport my 20x Spites around but otherwise I'd run all my Kurnoth + Durthu into position inside of my wyldwoods. Free spirits has been very useful for this as getting all of my hunters inside of woods has been huge. The cover combined with rerolling save rolls has allowed them to tank a charge from Durthu + Drycha + TLA and against 20 boingrot bounders with +1 attack while only losing 2-3 hunters total and retaliating by doing WAY more damage in return. Winterleaf is fantastic with Kurnoths, hitting those 6s for extra attacks gives them huge spike potential on their weighty attack profile. The extra attacks and reroll of 1s to hit via the Arch-Revenant has been great too. I've yet to effectively use the Frozen Kernel as so far it's usually not been worth attacking twice combined with the timing of having to use it at the start of the combat phase makes me not want to use it on my opponents turn for fear of them focusing that unit too hard.
There's been a couple flaws in the list though. It struggles to maintain both speed and offence in any single turn since kurnoth are slow when not running and I don't have any charge bonuses in the list. I'd REALLY benefit from being able to summon a woods near an objective and charge a target mid game. The 20x spites is cool, but they've not done much to earn their weight without being able to reliably alpha strike as a rerollable 9" charge is not reliable at all. So far they tend to just either come in too late or absorb a charge and all die. I could redo the list and focus more on spites but I wanted to do more with Kurnoth, plus I think winterleaf benefits them greatly. A boatload of spites is GREAT on paper, but in actual use it's really not easy fitting more than a handful into combat.
Here's what I'm going to try next:
Arch-Revenant
Spirit of Durthu (General) (Frozen Kernel)
Tree Lord Ancient (Throne of Vines) (Spellsong Staff)
Tree-Revenants x5
Dryads x10
Spite Revenants x5
Scythe Kurnoth Hunters x6
Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3
Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3
Free Spirits
Spiteswarm Hive
Gladewyrm (30 extra points)
6 Drops
1 CPMore drops is a bit worse but not too bad yet, you're still going first vs a lot of stuff (and you weren't going to decide vs FEC anyway before). The Ancient gives a 100% chance at trees once during the game, not sure I'd even use it first turn though but depends on how far up I can get my initial woods or how much I want to alpha someone. I really don't like the iffy nature of having to summon all your trees via the spell, there's been way too many times I've been shut down that way and it can blow a whole game.
Ideally the Ancient will Throne + Spiteswarm Hive to ensure it goes off easier. Kurnoth run into position into the trees to take cover. Dryads either stay behind to hold something or teleport/run up in front of the hunters to screen. T-Revs hold off or threaten to take an objective via their own teleport and Spites hold something in the back line or zone off some deep strike shenanigans.The main things are the addition of the Hive and the Ancient for the once a game woods placement. This allows me a very good chance at woods + teleport + charge to a key location that I need to hit hard or capture.
I'll give it a few runs and see how I feel, but feel free to provide any feedback.
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6 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:
Also a question to the english speakers here, can you summon an awakened wyldwood for each TLA your army has, or only one no matter how many TLAs are in your army? If my english is right, it's only 1 wyldwood no matter how many TLAs.
1 woods, once per game, no matter how many TLAs is correct.
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9 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
That’s fair reasoning enough for me.
The problem is that something this would really need to be clarified before the battle. because you would definitely not want to charge anything scary that had a definite chance of hitting you after the first activation.
You could always dice it, that’s fine for minor rules disagreements but something like that is losing a critical part of your army on a 50/50 shot. I don't like those odds.To me, RAW it's very clear. RAI...well that's a whole can of worms usually for GW games. I typically try to stick to as close to RAW as possible unless a FAQ/Commentary says otherwise, and we'll be awhile yet before we see any of that seeing as the book isn't even officially out yet.
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6 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
What’s your thought on the Slaanesh faq above?
So I wish this was more consistent, but I think the Slaanesh FAQ only applies to those two specific cases.
Both Locus of Diversion and Horrible Fascination have this clause at the end of them: "If a unit that is affected by this ability is also affected by any rules that would allow it to fight at the start of the combat phase, that unit is not affected by this rule or those other rules (the effects cancel each other out)."
Gristlegore simply says "This general fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase" Our tree stomp ability says at the start of combat, on a 4+ make them go last. Neither abilities have any mention of cancelling out eachother so I do not think that applies in this case. If they release a general FAQ that says all "strike first" and "strike last" abilities cancel eachother then that would be another story. As far as I know nothing like that exists.
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18 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
Something to think about.
If you read my Dreadwood list, you might have noticed that I have 4 Treelords ( TLA x2, TL, Durthu) in it. This is to maximize the chance of stomps forcing the enemy to fight last.
We know the FEC Gristlegore has a General that fight’s first and Slaanesh’s new BT has a lot of units that confer strike last. Here’s the relevant FAQ’s on how those abilities interact. From the Beasts of Chaos BT:
In the case of Gristlegore, the abilities cancel out (in our turn) and the Gristlegore General would strike in normal activation order. That means if you combo-charge him, but not kill him, you may activate a unit before he does, but then he can activate the general as usual immediately after, so don’t count on being bale to combo-charge “fights first” models.
In the case of Slaanesh’s Locus of Distraction or Horrifying image (both conferring strike last), the two effects don’t cancel out, but the one that was applied last takes precedence. This is somewhat counter-intuitive, because our strike-last would take precedence over their strike-last only in their own phase.This is because the player whose turn it is gets to use the ability first. So, in your opponents turn, let’s say he makes a roll for locus or horrify and it is successful. It is the effect that is applied first. Then we make a roll for stomp, and if it is successful, it is applied second. Since the effect applied second takes precedence, their unaffected units fights, then our unaffected units, alternating as normal. Then our affected units with strike last, fight before theirs and then his strike the very last.
In your turn, you must remember to let them apply their “fight last” abilities before you do, since the players who turn it is decides in what order those abilities trigger. In your phase, hope he forgets and applies his rolls first.
TL:DR: Always try to stomp last if possible vs models that can also force you to fight last. Vs. Strike first models, You need to stomp him first in your turn, and hope you wipe him out in the first activation because he will be able to activate as normal.I don't believe you are correct on this for a couple of reasons.
First I refer you to this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/
Our new stomp "go last" ability does NOT have the clause that turns "Strike First" into cancelling out and "striking normal". It simply says they have to go last. Period. Not if they would go first to cancel it out, just straight up back of the line "you go last". This would entirely cancel Gristlegore's strike first ability during our turn for sure because our stomp activates first and turns them into striking last. This gets a little fuzzier during their turn. Their trait says they fight at the start of the combat phase. Our ability triggers at the start of the combat phase. According to this article since it is their turn they get to resolve ALL "start of combat" abilities before we get to resolve any of ours. This would mean he gets to strike first before we even get to stomp.
In Slaanesh's case I do not think that FAQ applies at all. Slaanesh tells our model to strike last, we tell Slaanesh to strike last. You do not have 2 abilities that conflict at all. You simply are setting the combat order of both models to the end of the turn. When it hits end of turn, if it is our turn we get to hit first with ALL of the things Slaanesh affected with "strike last" then they get to attack with all of the things we stomped on. During Slaanesh's turn if he confers strike last to us, and us to him, he gets to strike first with ALL of the models we made strike last, then we get to go with all models.
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31 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Drops: 6You'd have 2 extra CP FYI, you'd start with 3 of course once your turn hits. Also you're at 1990 instead of 2000 which gives you a (small) chance at a triumph at least.
That's a good point about the drops though, I don't expect to choose vs FEC (part of what makes them hard to fight). I like this version, I think trading off 1 CP and 1 drop isn't too bad to have a unit of T-Revs. Even if you don't screen with them having them available to take an untended objective is very strong.
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1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:
Allegiance: Order
Mortal Realm: Ulgu
Wargrove: Dreadwood
Spirit of Durthu (340)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Command trait: Parragon of Terror
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Arch-Revenant (100)
Arch-Revenant (100)
Branchwraith (80)
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines
20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
Treelord (200)
Lords of the Clan (60)
Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 93
Drops: 7If I could make a few suggestions/throw some ideas out there.
I don't know if a second Arch-Revenant is worth it. It would give you a bit more coverage on his command ability but if you drop him and make a few changes you can lower your drop count by 2, get casting support, and an extra CP. If you're going for an alpha list I feel low drops is very important.
Changes would be:
-Remove Arch-Rev #2.
-Make Arch-Rev #1 your general, extends the range of his +1 attack ability to make it easier to fit a unit of spites in it after charging.
-Exchange the two T-Rev squads for spites. I know this reduces the amount you can teleport around but sometimes you want stuff to hold back objectives too, so its not a waste.
-Add the Outcasts battalion now that you have 3x Spites.
-You have an extra artifact now, throw the Spiritsong Stave on the Branchwraith, this lets her cast Throne of Vines and a spell (probably one of your endless) on the same turn.Final list would be:
Wargrove: Dreadwood
Spirit of Durthu (340)
- Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Artefact: Jewel of Withering
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Treelord Ancient (300)
- Deepwood Spell: Treesong
Arch-Revenant (100)
- General
- Command trait: Parragon of Terror
Branchwraith (80)
- Artefact: Spiritsong Stave
- Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines20 x Spite-Revenants (200)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)
5 x Spite-Revenants (60)Treelord (200)
Lords of the Clan (60)
Outcasts (100)Spiteswarm Hive (50)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Gladewyrm (30) (You have 40 points to play with, threw this in as filler, pick some other spell if you'd like)Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Drops: 5-
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5 hours ago, Zanzou said:
Can someone explain to me why the Arch-Revenant keeps getting a mentioned as a major alarielle buff when the majority of her damage (her mount) cannot be affected?
But it can be affected. You’re likely getting command ABILITIES confused with command TRAITS.
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12 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
After spending a night with the book and reading over how things work I think I have a handle on the designers intentions and why the battalions are set-up like they are. I get that people are upset about the changes to the core battalions. And yes, they’ve drastically changed. But I think there’s good reason.
Firstly, one of the problems with our old book was it was totally rock/scissors/paper. Gnarlroot for a long time was hands-down the strongest casting army on the table for AoS. Then Disciples of TZ dropped. then Nagash came on the table. Then blades of Khorne forcing RR of successful casting and a bunch of cheap units that could unbind spells. Then then they increased unbinding from 18”-30”.
After that wave of books, Gnarlroot was still super powerful, provided you weren’t facing one of those armies. But you happened to draw one say in a tournament match-up you we’re pretty much f-d. Same goes for thinks like winterleaf if you managed to draw and army that was good at clearing hordes. I played dreadwood almost exclusively in competitive games. The D3 roll at the beginning was the biggest problem at 180 Pts, you could roll 3 starts and it was amazing and totally worth it. Roll 1 and you couldn’t do very much with it.
Our units were like that too. Take scythes on your hunters? Awesome if you come up against stormcast; sucks if you came up against Nighthaunt. Drycha’s Squirmlings/flitterfuries? Squirmlings were murder if you came up against hordes, and were useless if you came up across multiwound models in an MSU list. with our old book, we either rolled over our opponents or we had a brutal uphit slog where we were hoping to eek out a minor win or a draw, because our opponent’s list shut down our wargroves “gimmick”.
This book is radically different. They’ve basically taken our 3 main playstyles and spread them out across the army through a combination of items/traits/warscroll/points adjustments.
There is no way to build the army to play as old gnarlroot/dreadwood/winterleaf anymore. This is a good thing, because those playstyles only works 2/3 of the time. Gnarlroot +the right artifacts, can’t attempt to cast 7 spells per turn anymore. What they can do is pretty much guarantee that they can get off critical spells off at the right time. Now, it’s very possible to bring 2 hunters back from the dead and heal them to full health without too much fear of failing the casting roll or having it unbound. Build the list right, you can easily cast 5 spells per turn, probably getting 3-4 off without too much fear of having it shut down. PLUS you get extra damage RR’ing 1’s to hit, extra healing on top of core spells and extra points from not having to pay for the battalion anymore (230 pts). I don’t care how sad you are about losing that 1 casting attempt; thats a huge buff.
I keep saying it’s going to take time to put all this together, but the synergy of this book is bonkers. You just need to put your old lazy list building strats to bed and break out some new ideas. There’s going to be more ways to play this army than ever before.100% agreed. I already have about 3-4 list ideas (probably more) floating around in my head right now.
Also you mentioned reviving 2 hunters per turn, I’m aware of the spell that gives you 1, what’s the second way? I must have missed it my first time through.
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37 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:
I didn’t say that I was certain we’d get an extra artifact. I just said it’s weird.
We have 4 tables of artifacts, which seems pretty damn excessive. And for the most part, they’re all really really good. Taking any of the named wargroves takes up an artifact slot, which means you have to take a battalion to sqeeze in a second.
What we haven’t seen, is the page that tells us how many artifacts we can take, and how it works. The KO book isn’t set up like the SCE book, which means not all books are written with the same format. I know what bog standard is, but as I pointed point out above, there have been exceptions. We’ve seen roughly 30 pages of a 104 page book and I’m not saying I know what’s there. I’m saying I want to know what’s on that page to see if anything is missing from the bigger picture. Maybe GW just want there to be a massive amount fo ways we can kit out our heroes, but 3 tables would have been easily enough for that (especially when most of these items are pretty useful.
There a lot of information to process here. It’s not a terrible idea to wait to the book is in hand before declaring that we know for certain how everything works.
I have the book in its entirety, I was one of the lucky ones to buy it while it was available for the few hours that it was up on the iTunes store.
You have all the information in the leaks, there is no special paragraph detailing exactly how to use the artifacts etc. The rules for artifact usage are on page 15 of the core rules under "Artifacts of Power". Strormcast, KO, etc have their own passages due to the unique nature in which they're allowed to use some of them.
4 Tables isn't new at all. Look at the Idoneth Deepkin book, they also get 4 tables of 6 artifacts each. Hell, skaven has 6 tables of 6 each even!
Point is, don't bother waiting till you have the book in hand if you've seen the leaks, it's all there. Every single page of rules content. Don't hold your breath for more because there is none.
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3 minutes ago, Fyrm said:
So, I’m curious. How does the alpha strike game work out now? Without the old Dreadwood, all our teleports seem to take place after movement? So we now have to pull them all off with a 9” charge. Sure, we have a bunch of ways to buff charges, but do we feel we can reliably get them all off and in place in time to make that reliable? Because I kinda fell in love with the idea of dropping a Durthu in the enemy’s face and just slamming the giant tree into them, but I’m not sure if it’s reliable enough to pull off to build around anymore. Although I suppose there are other, equally fun tricks for my murder tree.
It's actually more reliable than ever. You can max out at a +9" to charge on Durthu. If that's not reliable I don't know what is.
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14 minutes ago, Xil said:
I wasn't able to get a Looncurse box in time... My FLGS only had 2 of them in stock. Do you guys think GW will make the box available again?
No
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@Mirage8112 I think you may have misread the "Followers of the Wild Hunt" ability (unless I'm missing a FAQ/Errata).
You get +1 to the roll if there are ANY Kurnoth Hunters on the battlefield, not for each.
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6 hours ago, Nevar said:
I understand and agree with the concern in bodies, as it has been a critique of a lot of my Nighthaunt lists where I go very 'elite' and low model count. I am just not sure the trade of Thanquol for +40 clanrats ends up worth it in the end. Maybe if I took a foot Grey Seer and expanded to like +80 more clanrats they would make a huge difference... but the way I see it, the clanrats are doomed. We do not have ways to return them or resummon them. They will take casualties by the bucket loads, and will have morale issues without me using CP to prevent it. Seems to me, the Clanrats have two purposes, screening and objective capture. Sending one 20 rat blob through a Gnawhole to threaten backfields is a strat I will likely use often, but I do not -want- my front line to survive contact with the enemy.
If you embed a Warpfire Thrower team -inside- a clanrat unit, and make sure it is within 3" of the front rank... when battle commences you choose everything before the Warpfire Team. Hopefully, and likely, the clanrats will have been wiped out by the enemy unit, leaving a Warpfire team engaged in melee, and chosen last to fight. Pile in 3" to get as close and into as much of the enemy models as possible. When it switches to your turn... you have a Warpfire team inside 1" of the offending enemy unit, making that 8" range on the flame thrower normally hit every model in the unit. Rolling 60 dice vs. 30 Dark Aelf Witches is brutal, and will likely wipe the unit. Even with their 6+++ only a handful will survive, and those will likely flee from Battleshock. If they spend their CP to prevent it, then they do not have it for buffing the stragglers who Thanqoul can club to death.
Vs. more stalwart battleline like Stormcast Liberators... Thanqoul's 4 dice per model still wipes a squad. More elite unit like Decimators or Paladins are prime targets for artillery fire, and more annoying units not prone to melee flame throwers like Prosecutors or Crypt Flayers are also not as clanrat mulchy as the melee threats Warpfire Throwers counter. Liberator equivalents are not going to mulch our rats-slaves as quickly or as effectively as things like skeletons/witches/ghouls/rats/etc. And the things that can really blender a unit of clanrats are also the things most countered by a warpfire thrower.40 clanrats will get destroyed in one round of combat just as easily as 20 clanrats facing the sort of enemies I will be facing. Investing in those dead rats seems like a waste of points in my local meta. 30 Witch units with 4 attacks each rerolling 1's is the normal mainline engagement I am going to run into. On average they do 30.5 damage to clanrats... having 9 and a half clanrats left over if I am immune to battleshock doesn't seem worth the points investment, when the Warpfire Thrower is the guys who have to step up and clean house afterwards either way.
I could be totally wrong, maybe I am missing something or I am living in dream land, I would love to hear more feedback on it.
Plus... Thanqoul is way cooler than a Verminlord.
I wouldn't underestimate the importance of a 40 block clanrat unit. Sure they don't kill anything really, but having those 9 models left over engaging the opponent when you get double turned - thus leaving the opponent in melee combat and unable to charge your squishy back line is HUGE and will win games for you.
Having your WFT in combat is a bad and risky idea. Certain units have long 2-3" melee ranges and just might be able to pick it off in combat, you'll likely get plenty of shots in by just walking outside of 3".
Your example with witch elves is a bit inflated. It will be nasty for sure, you'll torch a lot of ladies but you're very very unlikely to kill the unit. 60 dice will average in 30 hits. A large majority of witch elf lists these days are running a 5++ instead of a 6++ and they all run the reroll prayer. This has them save ~16 assuming 5++ with reroll. So you toast about 14 which is decent but hardly wiping the unit. They'll also be immune to battle shock due to the hag queens - no CP required.
If I had to fit Thanquol into that list I'd likely remove a warp lightning cannon and the Warpseer rather than clanrats.
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33 minutes ago, Overread said:
It does, however, reduce endless spell abuse; don't forget all those people trying to use Gates to range boost endless spells too - can't do that either.
It really is for the better. Early AoS2.0 before the FAQ I ran an Arkhan the Black build with 5-6 endless spells using his increased range command. The result was so many spells my opponent couldn’t actually get across the board to me. It can become pretty abusive.
Besides, you can always skitterleap first then cast the vortex!
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21 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:
Get the Balewind! The extra 6" is so helpful with the Warp Lightning Vortex.
I keep seeing this mentioned here, but are people aware of the FAQ?
Q: Do things that increase the range of a caster’s spells also apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up from the caster?
A: No. Things that increase the range of a spell’s effects do not apply to the distance at which an endless spell can be set up. By the same token, things that allow you to measure the range of a spell from a different location to the caster cannot be used when setting up an endless spell.
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AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion
in Seraphon
Posted
So far through my testing this is much more viable now. You need a few skink heroes but 90% saurus is certainly viable. I will add a caveat that I do think skinks will be more competitive overall, but by no means is saurus bad anymore.