tman3257

So far through my testing this is much more viable now. You need a few skink heroes but 90% saurus is certainly viable. I will add a caveat that I do think skinks will be more competitive overall, but by no means is saurus bad anymore.

To be fair, it's never mattered before this. This is the first time something has a natural 1+ save. Nothing else in the game can boast that. Sure you can get to an effective 1+ with modifiers, but remember, those modify the DICE roll. This is the first time this interaction has mattered.

This has not been my experience so far with concerns to the armor save. 5+ or 6+ doesn't seem to matter a whole lot vs Slaanesh. It's the Fanatical 5++ that really does the work. Keepers have a minimum of -1 rend and the claws, which do the most damage, would negate a 5+ armor save entirely. Being a 4+ isn't a whole ton better usually, as that's just relegated to a 6+ on the claws. Facing an enemy with little to no rend and the shields are fantastic. 4+/5++ is amazing. Unfortunately the biggest threats out there right now are commonly -2 rend.

That's fair. Shooting skaven is strong but I'm finding it rougher to play in the meta right now, but that's a topic for the skaven forum. Hagg Narr would likely help with Devoted Disciples as well with being able to get more witches onto the front lines alive vs shooting. I've found the difference between a 6++ and a 5++ to be massive, especially when Blessing of Khaine is active. The other day I had Allariele smash a unit of sisters for 20 damage, only for me to lose a grand total of 4. But your comment brings me to another build variation I've been toying with. Cauldron Guard with 30/10 Witch Aelves and 30 SoS which sounds similar to what you were running. You'd have to sadly lose the Medusa but you'd gain another artifact, Iron Circlet likely. I think its probably a better list overall but worse vs Slaanesh/FEC where combat needs to be heavily controlled. Losing the extra caster does hurt sometimes though.

Skaven can be rough! I should know since I play them as well lol. There are so many list varieties that are all at least semi-viable. I'd confidently say they have the largest variety of good units of any book in the game. Luck being on their side can ****** you (or vice versa) as well. Double Mindrazor was something I was thinking about as well. It seems like a little bit of a waste but if you really need it early on Morathi does have the +1 to cast it compared to the Medusa and against armies like skaven with plenty of denies and low bravery it can be a game winning spell. I get the idea of the shroud of despair + mindrazor combo but it seems pretty edge case. You'd also have to get very lucky to drop any of the scary bravery 10 units (pretty much everything FEC and Slaanesh and LoN/LoG) down to 7 with it. I'd feel much more confident in the Medusa if I could fit in a battalion and the Shadow Stone. Sadly with the way our points are now it's just not possible to have all of that at once anymore. I've thought about the damage difference concern but I'm curious if 30 blobs of witches would actually output all that much more than 30 SoS w/knives in practice. If we take a reasonable model frontage number of 10 and compare the two units the number of attacks should be identical. Assuming 20 are within 1" range (2 rows) that is 80 witch attacks and 60 sister attacks. Sisters would get a 3rd rank though, bumping them up another 20 attacks to the 80. Granted the math starts to shift one way or another when start getting more or less models in (though SoS should always be able to get at least as many, often more, models as WE due to higher pile in) and WE will always do more damage if you can get 100% of the models in (a rare occurrence for me when the unit is full at least).

No. Their bonus only applies during battleshock.

So with the dominance of Slaanesh currently and the WE point increases I've been thinking Sisters might be the way to go right now. The ability to essentially ignore their "go last" ability by running to within 6" and piling in later is huge. They'd still get to swing but not until after you have, giving you a chance to take it out or severely weaken it. I'd love to fit in a Slaughter Troupe but it doesn't seem possible currently to fit in all the hero support you need, plus morathi, plus 70 infantry and make it under 2k (comes to 2020 iirc). So I've been thinking of going with a battalion. The artifact will be missed, but the increase in drops I'm not sure will make a huge difference right now. Both Slaanesh and FEC have a very low drop count, likely lower than a Slaughter Troupe or Cauldron Guard list. I think Morathi needs to stay because she's so key against KoS. Proposed list is as follows: Morathi - Shroud of Despair Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - General: Devoted Disciples -Blessing of Khaine -Gryph-Feather Charm Hag Queen -Catechism of Murder Hag Queen -Sacrament of Blood Bloodwrack Medusa -Mindrazor Sisters of Slaughter x30 -Knives Sisters of Slaughter x30 -Knives Witch Aelves -Knives Khinerai Heartrenders x5 Malevolent Maelstrom (10 pts leftover, optional) 50 pts for 1 extra CP. All knives to make up for the swap from Witch Aelves to Sisters of Slaughter. A lot of damage these days also comes from mortal wounds or high rend anyway, so not AS worried about having the bucklers. Bloodwrack Medusa for the extra caster, I plan on having Morathi in angry snek form most of the match. Gryph Feather on the Cauldron for obvious reasons. I feel the extra starting CP is mandatory just in case one of your 30 sisters units sustains heavy causalities before they can drink the kool-aid on top of turn 1. Heartrenders for scenario threat. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Not quite, You can squeeze some in between the gaps to swing as long as you get as close as possible with the front line. All 20 is a pipe dream but it's not too hard to get a decent number in if you have a good charge. That being said, I think people are overvaluing them a bit. I think they're good yes, but not sure yet if they're worth taking in 20 strong. Need to experiment more.

So I ran a Kurnoth heavy Winterleaf list a couple of times this week to good success. Arch-Revenant Spirit of Durthu (General) (Frozen Kernel) Branchwraith (Throne of Vines) (Spellsong Staff) Branchwraith (Verdurous Harmony) (The autocast Gem) Spite Revenant x20 Spite Revenant x5 Spite Revenant x5 Scythe Kurnoth Hunters x6 Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3 Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3 Free Spirits Outcasts Vengeful Skullroots (had 40 leftover points) 5 drops 2 CP My gameplan was typically to set up my initial forest as far up the board as possible. I'd attempt to summon a woods in so I could teleport my 20x Spites around but otherwise I'd run all my Kurnoth + Durthu into position inside of my wyldwoods. Free spirits has been very useful for this as getting all of my hunters inside of woods has been huge. The cover combined with rerolling save rolls has allowed them to tank a charge from Durthu + Drycha + TLA and against 20 boingrot bounders with +1 attack while only losing 2-3 hunters total and retaliating by doing WAY more damage in return. Winterleaf is fantastic with Kurnoths, hitting those 6s for extra attacks gives them huge spike potential on their weighty attack profile. The extra attacks and reroll of 1s to hit via the Arch-Revenant has been great too. I've yet to effectively use the Frozen Kernel as so far it's usually not been worth attacking twice combined with the timing of having to use it at the start of the combat phase makes me not want to use it on my opponents turn for fear of them focusing that unit too hard. There's been a couple flaws in the list though. It struggles to maintain both speed and offence in any single turn since kurnoth are slow when not running and I don't have any charge bonuses in the list. I'd REALLY benefit from being able to summon a woods near an objective and charge a target mid game. The 20x spites is cool, but they've not done much to earn their weight without being able to reliably alpha strike as a rerollable 9" charge is not reliable at all. So far they tend to just either come in too late or absorb a charge and all die. I could redo the list and focus more on spites but I wanted to do more with Kurnoth, plus I think winterleaf benefits them greatly. A boatload of spites is GREAT on paper, but in actual use it's really not easy fitting more than a handful into combat. Here's what I'm going to try next: Arch-Revenant Spirit of Durthu (General) (Frozen Kernel) Tree Lord Ancient (Throne of Vines) (Spellsong Staff) Tree-Revenants x5 Dryads x10 Spite Revenants x5 Scythe Kurnoth Hunters x6 Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3 Sword Kurnoth Hunters x3 Free Spirits Spiteswarm Hive Gladewyrm (30 extra points) 6 Drops 1 CP More drops is a bit worse but not too bad yet, you're still going first vs a lot of stuff (and you weren't going to decide vs FEC anyway before). The Ancient gives a 100% chance at trees once during the game, not sure I'd even use it first turn though but depends on how far up I can get my initial woods or how much I want to alpha someone. I really don't like the iffy nature of having to summon all your trees via the spell, there's been way too many times I've been shut down that way and it can blow a whole game. Ideally the Ancient will Throne + Spiteswarm Hive to ensure it goes off easier. Kurnoth run into position into the trees to take cover. Dryads either stay behind to hold something or teleport/run up in front of the hunters to screen. T-Revs hold off or threaten to take an objective via their own teleport and Spites hold something in the back line or zone off some deep strike shenanigans. The main things are the addition of the Hive and the Ancient for the once a game woods placement. This allows me a very good chance at woods + teleport + charge to a key location that I need to hit hard or capture. I'll give it a few runs and see how I feel, but feel free to provide any feedback.

1 woods, once per game, no matter how many TLAs is correct.

To me, RAW it's very clear. RAI...well that's a whole can of worms usually for GW games. I typically try to stick to as close to RAW as possible unless a FAQ/Commentary says otherwise, and we'll be awhile yet before we see any of that seeing as the book isn't even officially out yet.

So I wish this was more consistent, but I think the Slaanesh FAQ only applies to those two specific cases. Both Locus of Diversion and Horrible Fascination have this clause at the end of them: "If a unit that is affected by this ability is also affected by any rules that would allow it to fight at the start of the combat phase, that unit is not affected by this rule or those other rules (the effects cancel each other out)." Gristlegore simply says "This general fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase" Our tree stomp ability says at the start of combat, on a 4+ make them go last. Neither abilities have any mention of cancelling out eachother so I do not think that applies in this case. If they release a general FAQ that says all "strike first" and "strike last" abilities cancel eachother then that would be another story. As far as I know nothing like that exists.

I don't believe you are correct on this for a couple of reasons. First I refer you to this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/ Our new stomp "go last" ability does NOT have the clause that turns "Strike First" into cancelling out and "striking normal". It simply says they have to go last. Period. Not if they would go first to cancel it out, just straight up back of the line "you go last". This would entirely cancel Gristlegore's strike first ability during our turn for sure because our stomp activates first and turns them into striking last. This gets a little fuzzier during their turn. Their trait says they fight at the start of the combat phase. Our ability triggers at the start of the combat phase. According to this article since it is their turn they get to resolve ALL "start of combat" abilities before we get to resolve any of ours. This would mean he gets to strike first before we even get to stomp. In Slaanesh's case I do not think that FAQ applies at all. Slaanesh tells our model to strike last, we tell Slaanesh to strike last. You do not have 2 abilities that conflict at all. You simply are setting the combat order of both models to the end of the turn. When it hits end of turn, if it is our turn we get to hit first with ALL of the things Slaanesh affected with "strike last" then they get to attack with all of the things we stomped on. During Slaanesh's turn if he confers strike last to us, and us to him, he gets to strike first with ALL of the models we made strike last, then we get to go with all models.

You'd have 2 extra CP FYI, you'd start with 3 of course once your turn hits. Also you're at 1990 instead of 2000 which gives you a (small) chance at a triumph at least. That's a good point about the drops though, I don't expect to choose vs FEC (part of what makes them hard to fight). I like this version, I think trading off 1 CP and 1 drop isn't too bad to have a unit of T-Revs. Even if you don't screen with them having them available to take an untended objective is very strong.

If I could make a few suggestions/throw some ideas out there. I don't know if a second Arch-Revenant is worth it. It would give you a bit more coverage on his command ability but if you drop him and make a few changes you can lower your drop count by 2, get casting support, and an extra CP. If you're going for an alpha list I feel low drops is very important. Changes would be: -Remove Arch-Rev #2. -Make Arch-Rev #1 your general, extends the range of his +1 attack ability to make it easier to fit a unit of spites in it after charging. -Exchange the two T-Rev squads for spites. I know this reduces the amount you can teleport around but sometimes you want stuff to hold back objectives too, so its not a waste. -Add the Outcasts battalion now that you have 3x Spites. -You have an extra artifact now, throw the Spiritsong Stave on the Branchwraith, this lets her cast Throne of Vines and a spell (probably one of your endless) on the same turn. Final list would be: Wargrove: Dreadwood Spirit of Durthu (340) - Artefact: Doppelganger Cloak Treelord Ancient (300) - Artefact: Jewel of Withering - Deepwood Spell: Regrowth Treelord Ancient (300) - Deepwood Spell: Treesong Arch-Revenant (100) - General - Command trait: Parragon of Terror Branchwraith (80) - Artefact: Spiritsong Stave - Deepwood Spell: Throne of Vines 20 x Spite-Revenants (200) 5 x Spite-Revenants (60) 5 x Spite-Revenants (60) Treelord (200) Lords of the Clan (60) Outcasts (100) Spiteswarm Hive (50) Chronomantic Cogs (60) Gladewyrm (30) (You have 40 points to play with, threw this in as filler, pick some other spell if you'd like) Total: 1940 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 3 Drops: 5