Liquidsteel
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Posts posted by Liquidsteel
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9 hours ago, vinnyt said:
lly really really am starting to think that deepkin is gonna be an army that wins off their shooting and then one or two surgical combats on turn 2 into 3. I don't particularly like the Sea and I REALLY don't like the Sea when he isn't the general. If he's not the gatling caster I'd much rather just have a tidecaster and more shooting. I do like the MSU morrsarr with sharks- gives you the opportunity to soften up targets with morrsarr before killing them with sharks.
Yes I agree, one of the first two lists I played when the book dropped was Turtle, 4 Sharks, 20 Reavers, 10 Thralls, King and Lotann. Sat back for 2 turns then engaged. I felt like it could do with 1 extra screening unit but the points aren't there, though I suppose could drop 1 Shark and play around with the points a bit. I did enjoy it though, nice to have options to sit back.
The Sea is a love/hate relationship, I love the model and want to use it (same with my Turtle) but I agree it's not amazing. If the combo goes off it's fantastic, but it does feel bad when fail your Tsunami for -1/2/3 save, especially if you teleported to achieve it. I feel it might have been better simply as a -1 to save aura, so at least you could attempt to cast it THEN decide if you are teleporting, and if not, it's a another layer to the castle.
I did manage to squeeze a win out vs Stormcast yesterday with the high drop + Sea list. He had 3 Dragons, 4 Fulminators, 6 Raptors and some chaff and a relictor. He made me go first and I sent a unit of 3 Morrsarr in to his Dragons after taking a few pot shots with the 2 Sharks, though only managed to kill one dragon after having Tsunami unbound. I did manage to survive a double turn, however, as my Sea with mystic shield and finest hour survived 2 full rounds of Raptor shooting and the following combat, then was slain to the wound in the following combat phase, allowing me the double 2 in to 3 and then held priority in to 4 to clean up.
We have a 2 day tournament this weekend and I'm not yet sure what I want to take, though I think I'll scale back the Morrsarr slightly in favour of more shooting, and drop the Sea for now.
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I'll be giving an Eel-focussed list a run out tonight, admittedly vs Dragons and Longstrikes but we'll see how it goes.
Still not sure which option is best in general for this kind of list, not specifically in to Stormcast, and really torn on what to take, below are some ideas showing different options.
Curious to see what people think overall.
1 Drop 3 Heroes
SpoilerAllegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Isharann Soulscryer (150)*
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Curse
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*
Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
20 x Namarti Reavers (340)*
- Reinforced x 1
Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 1
Here the Soulscryer could be a Tidecaster, depends how you feel about the Deepstrike. 20 Reavers provide a serious threat to any would-be chargers.
High Drops with Sea
SpoilerAllegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Leaders
Akhelian King (250)**
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Armour of the Cythai
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Eidolon of Mathlann, Aspect of the Sea (325)**
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)**
Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)**
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)**
Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
Core Battalions
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Warlord
Additional Enhancements
Artefact
Total: 1970 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 8
Dropping 10 Reavers and the Isharran for the Sea. You can make it 1 drop just by switching to Battle Regiment, or 2-4 drops by using Battle Regiment and 1-3 units in Hunters, mainly to avoid Eels getting stomped/roared.
2 heroes with Aetherwings and 4 Sharks
SpoilerAllegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Mortal Realm: Ulgu
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: Inspired
Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Lotann, Warden of the Soul Ledgers (115)*
Battleline
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Aetherwings (65)*
Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108
Drops: 4
More units, less heroes. As they're not taken in a 20, the Reavers have been demoted to Thralls in order to add some Aetherwings as early objective grabbers and screens and the Thralls will give their lives for the cause also. 4 Sharks provide a solid shooting phase to threaten most units, I feel like 4 is the critical mass to be reliably killing important units and it's what I've been running in my initial lists (Ionrach and Nautilar so far).
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52 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:
I took the armor as he is already killy enough
Does Unstoppable Fury mean you get +2 Attacks for every enemy unit in 3"? So if there are 3 enemy units you get +6 Attacks for every melee weapon? That would be crazy
Yes but only the Polearm and Falchion, artefact and traits don't apply to mounts.
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I'm gonna give the Leviadon a go tonight finally, will try something like this out.
Tidecaster could be 10 more Reavers or another hero, Artefact can be changed also.
Basic premise is turtle up and shoot early, looking to engage with the King's High Tide bottom of turn 2 in to turn 3. King and Turtle with rend -3 backed up by some Sharks should be able to deal with most things.
Shipwreck/s positioned to wall-off something scary like a Mawkrusha and present the Thralls only. I think perhaps 20 Reavers might be preferred so you can still have 40 shots hitting on 2's even with Unleash Hell.
- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Subfaction: Nautilar
LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)
- General
- Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
- Bladed Polearm and Falchion
- Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
- Spells: Flaming Weapon
Lotann (115)
Isharann Tidecaster (150)
- Spells: Counter-current
BATTLELINE
1 x Akhelian Leviadon (500)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)
OTHER
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
TOTAL POINTS: 1975/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App -
Yes precisely, I think you need to try and engineer the initial strike bottom of turn 2 so you have the safety net in to turn 3 with that sort of list, or at least not commit too large a portion of your forces.
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1 hour ago, Chronos said:
I'm trying to figure out the best list to flip the Tides. It's still such an amazing ability, but sadly you don't get the super-killy King. Instead I thought about using him as a buff/debuff piece, and with Flaming Weapon he still hits ok.
I think the best way to work it with a hard hitting and mobile force would be using no Namarti other than the Tidecaster. Also, unless I'm wrong, having Volty will unlock battleline for the Eels. This list hinges on that so if I'm wrong, well...
Best I can come up with:
I've found it hard to include buffs from either Lotann, or either Eidolons in this list. As awesome as the Eidolon of the Sea is now, he can't get you the debuff in turn one, but is actually pretty good as a defensive option if you got charged turn one. Volty instead gives the +1 attack to the Morrsarr, which is a huge boost, either turn one if you rolled well or turn two. The Morrsarr sacrifice damage in turn one, but two units can still on average down a Mega at 3+ save. The extra attacks will boost damage on a unit of Morrsarr by over 7 on average.
If not getting the double into turn 2, damage can be lessened by having the King around, and he's already done his thing with the Tides, so if he gets focused down it's not a terrible loss. The -1, d3 damage attack from the Eels themselves is pretty decent, and the Ionrach ability will allow a unit of Eels to get out of combat if they are stuck in. Turn two, you could be doing upwards of 70-80 damage against a 3+ if everything gets in.
Ishlaen are there to basically get in the face of the enemy and try to reduce any incoming shooting turn 2.
I don't know if it's really worth it to lose the utility of say having the smashy King, Lotann, and the EotSea, but then you have to navigate to turn 3. Tough to say.
Which debuff do you mean, the Tsunami of Terror -1 to saves? If so he can take Steed of Tides and teleport in to position, though I'll admit it's risky plonking him forward. I am on the fence about him also, but the combo, if it works, is amazing. Also putting units of 6 eels up to 10 bravery is really nice.
I, too, have been toying with 2 x 6 eels, however without Volturnos and the Ishlaen and taking an extra 2 x Allopexes and 1 x Reavers.
The list has Lotann instead and relies on turn 3 High Tide, however in the 3 games I've played I've tried to be aggressive, and suffered heavy losses turn 2 that would not have occurred had I had High Tide available.
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On 3/14/2022 at 4:09 PM, vinnyt said:
the tactic is engaging a target with both the king and the morrsarr unit, popping the king's ability on himself, and then saving a CP by not needing to use AoA on the Morrsarr while absolutely RINSING whatever they've engaged.
Morrsarr missile is good, absolutely, but generally unsupported they'll kill a screen and then die. Deepkin do NOT do well being doubled into turn 2 without high tide to protect them, as your opponent will get to dictate combats and you can't pop the king's ability in your opponent's turn. If you're flipping tides, then sure, taking the first turn actually increases the chances of you getting priority into your high tide, which is fantastic. Plus deepkin artefacts are meh. Nothing really screams "warlord" battalion to me. Hunters is ok, but monstrous actions aren't that super impactful outside of thrall lists, as you can use AK aura to remove the need for AoA and turtle aura for a free AoD. Plus if you're dictating combat, then just make sure you've committed enough to kill whatever you're fighting despite the 66% chance of not being able to use CP in the combat phase.
I imagine you'll likely use a CP for auto running, a CP for AoD, and then that's either it for the turn, or if you have spares, you can pop AoA on reavers/sharks and/or save it for the next turn where you'll want CP for redeploy and AoD (possibly battleshock/AoA but that's unlikely).
I meant the missile tactic doesn't get the King's aura. Plus I'm not trying to say that it's what you absolutely want to be doing, rather the threat of it means that an opponent may not want to give you first turn anyway, even if they out drop you. But if they don't have screens and leave a big juicy target open, it could be a play.
Regarding Warlord, the option is the extra spell. You can take Arcane Tome on the Eidolon and make him a 3 cast wizard, potentially opening up Teleport + 2 spells. Dish out some -1 to save before your Morrsarr charge in and put their scary melee unit to half charges whilst at it. With the Eidolonn and back up shooting (3-4 sharks) you should be clearing out any screens no problem.
Again, not saying it's the be all and end all of tactics, just means that even if you deploy semi defensively turn 1, your opponent will have to seriously respect your combos in deciding the turn order.
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Yeah possibly, but thanks to Ionrach it means your opponent, even if they out drop you, has to respect the turn 1 Morrsarr Missile if they choose to make you go first.
You can also just make it a 2 or 3 drop to have a good chance to decide anyway.
King's Aura is only 9" so wouldn't be in range with this "tactic".
We also don't really hurt for CP, seeing as there aren't any Allegiance or Warscroll Command Abilities.
1 drop is still obviously good, just I think it's not mandatory.
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13 minutes ago, vinnyt said:
I am always a huge proponent of 1 drop deepkin armies.
I meant the opposite actually; I've been running 1 drop but realistically the army can be quite safe whilst still threatening the opponent turn 1 thanks to the Ionrach Heroic Action. 6 Morrsarr moving 21" with +2 to charge will cause problems, but getting stomped or roar'd can cut the damage, so being in Hunters would be nice to almost guarantee 2s and 2s (via Inspired, or a teleported Lotann).
You also pick your Ritual/s after priority is determined which is a nice bonus.
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You could maybe mob the Morrsarr together in to two units of 6 and take a unit of Reavers to fill out the battleline, who can sit in a boat on the home objective or act as the forward screen if required.
Something like this could be fun, I think, forgoing drops in favour of more spell choices and making the big hitters immune to those nasty stomps and roars.
Just playing hyper aggressive.
Spoiler- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Subfaction: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)**
- General
- Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
- Bladed Polearm and Falchion
- Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
- Spells: Flaming Weapon, Pressure of the Deep
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)**
- Spells: Counter-current, Steed of Tides
Lotann (115)**
BATTLELINE
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)**
OTHER
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
CORE BATTALIONS
- *Hunters of the Heartlands
- **Warlord
TOTAL POINTS: 1970/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The AppThe 6s can be a bit unwieldy but you can get all 6 to fight by having 3 of them face inwards.
Reliably 2s and 2s causes 17 Damage to a 2+ save before you factor in the zaps, and any shooting to soften up the target.
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I managed to get 3 games over the weekend, once vs Lofnir Fyreslayers and twice vs Ymmetrica Lumineth,
The list was as below, though dropped 3 Morrsarr for 10 Reavers after the first game as wanted to test them out.
Spoiler- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Subfaction: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
- Bladed Polearm and Falchion
- Artefacts of Power: Armour of the Cythai- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Lotann (115)*
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)*- Spell: Steed of Tides
BATTLELINE
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
OTHER
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
CORE BATTALIONS
- *Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The AppI am still new to this army, only played a handful of games before the new tome dropped as it was a lockdown project, and my opponents are seasoned tournament players who play for the national team for Worlds/6Nations so they pull no punches.
I lost vs Lofnir Fyreslayers, then drew and then lost vs Ymmetrica Lumineth.
Both the loss to Fyreslayers and draw to Lumineth could/should have been wins, but missplayed a few things and got a few rules wrong. Also had my 7 attack Akhelian King roll 6 1's when fighting Avelanor, and kill himself attacking 2 Magmadroths and turning off +1 to hit for my 2 other units due to poor sequencing, leaving the big Runefather on 2 wounds who then promptly fought twice and took out 500 points of my army.
The book does feel strong, perhaps doesn't have quite as much damage as I thought initially, though fighting Lumineth that ignore rend -1 and -2 and killing yourself against a -1 damage Magmadroth might not be fully representative of what the army can do.
Debating whether being 1 drop is needed, as could possibly stick the Eels and even the Sharks in to Hunters, maybe even getting an additional artefact or providing the Eidolon with a second spell choice via Warlord.
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3 minutes ago, vinnyt said:
but they can't easily end their move on top of the boat. They can run over em, sure, but if there's a unit right behind and you can't fit your fat base over the boat, it'll gum up your movement. This may vary by TO, so I'd recommend checking with them so it isn't a nasty surprise, but most GT's are pretty harsh when it comes to trying to gingerly balance huge bases on irregular pieces of area terrain.
I believe in general defensible is a no go for stepping on, even if ungarrisoned.
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Some nice lists there. I'm excited to start trying stuff out.
Turtle in Nautilar is how I think I'll run it.
But for ultra aggro I think the below could be decent, throwing in 6 Morrsarr after listening to the Warhammer Weekly podcast.
- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
- Subfaction: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumph: Inspired
LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
- Bladed Polearm and Falchion
- Artefacts of Power: Armour of the Cythai
Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)*
- Spells: Steed of Tides
Lotann (115)*
BATTLELINE
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)*
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)*
OTHER
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
- Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
CORE BATTALIONS
- *Battle Regiment
TOTAL POINTS: 2000/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The AppThat's the general outline. Grand Strategy to be determined, could swap to Arcane Tome instead of Armour.
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It’s after, as Paul has quoted in the rules.
Note that this also follows the mathematical principle of BODMAS in case you wondered why GW might have done it this way.
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Yeah the conundrum is Leviadon or Eidolon plus an extra shark for me.
Leviadon at least gives you the monster bonuses for certain battle tactics.
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It depends. I've recently gone up to 6/7 drops so often have to deploy without knowledge of who will go first.
I would always prefer to be lower drops if possible, but sometimes you need the extra artefact, the hunters etc to ensure your combos work without a hitch.
One of the things that is annoying is whether you should deploy in the grave or not, as sometimes an opponent can go first and screen you out, meaning your units end up further away than if they had just started on the board and ran forwards.
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Yep and the same with fight last also; you fully resolve all regular combats before moving on, with the active player getting the first pick.
On a related note, Bio-Shock Shell seems like a great artefact to again counter some big aggro armies; that bravery 8 Mawkrusha that wants to charge your Thralls with your Leviadon sitting behind needs to hope you don't roll a 9 on 3d6 or you will be hitting it with every unit in range before it gets to go.
Even Bravery 10 Kragnos has a good chance of being made to fight last.
There's some really nice options in the book overall.
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You've got this very wrong sorry.
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9 minutes ago, DocKeule said:
No it does not. The unit that got "Lord of Tides" fights first and then your opponent gets the next pick.
Edit: Even if you had two "fight first" units and your opponent had one you would have to alternate. (Core Rules 12.4)No you fight first then move on to regular activations of which you also get first pick.
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3 minutes ago, DocKeule said:
Well you still need to roll high enough be be able to have two or three units fight first. That's all I am saying.
Sure, but even one unit means you get two activations.
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12 minutes ago, DocKeule said:
The effect is much smaller than you seem to think.
It is D3 units and it can only be used once per game in your charge phase. This is important because you would have the first activation of the combat phase any way. So in a third of all games this ability does nothing (apart from maybe give Namarti the ward if that ritual was chosen). On a 3-4 you get one extra activation before your opponent can hit back, on a 5-6 a second. Again: Nice but not at all reliable especially since you need to do it at the end of the charge phase when your units are already engaged.I don't think so. There are a lot of bully units like Gargants, maybe a Mawkrusha, that kind of thing, that if you put two units in to them but don't/can't kill them on your first activation, you straight up lose your second unit. If you only send in one unit, it dies anyway. You can put 3 in, but you're still definitely losing 1 and maybe you can't afford to lose any of them.
Plenty of times this can be turn 1 or 2 where that result can snowball one player either way. Even just having 2 units fight first (1 ASF and 1 regular) can be the difference.
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There's also Battle Tactics to consider; getting a decent selection including several pretty easy ones bumps up your ability to win games, and I think IDK got some great choices here.
If you can score your BT every round and complete your Grand Strategy, you're in a decent position as long as you didn't totally flop on objectives.
There's also the state of the meta to consider - lots of crazy shooting right now or in your face combat armies. The army is now even stronger against shooting thanks to the rituals, and the buffs to Harpoon Launchers mean you can rip through enemy ranged units in return, from relative safety.
Getting High Tide via the King means 3 rounds of ASF, which is pretty big against combat armies like Giants or Orruks, where you might need 2-3 units to take care of their threats, but would fail if they were allowed to strike back.
I guess I'm just trying to point out that not everything can be determined by pure maths and stats of a warscroll or whether you gained or lost certain traits.
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23 minutes ago, vinnyt said:
List mk 1: Nautilar Enclave
First draft for me was the same, but dropping 2 x Sharks in favour of the Eidolon of the Sea.
You can also split the Thralls if choosing a different enclave, for whatever reason.
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You just need to learn to adapt. Look at Nurgle; lambasted as being a trash tier tome and what do you know, it's actually good.
People like Kitsumy can stay behind the curve and cry about things that may or may not be true.
Until you see the full book AND get some time to see how it works and how other armies respond to it, you won't really know where it lies.
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AoS 3 - Fyreslayers Discussion
in Order
Posted
I'm not totally convinced by this, though I did see some chat about it on Twitter a few weeks back.
It seems something that is a grey area.