Skoll
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Posts posted by Skoll
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32 minutes ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:
Wow I didn't think Rockguts needed to be cheaper. Goodnight my sweet Fimir. When taken as an army, the Troggboss' cost now evened out considerably.
Rockguts at 140 is really mindboggling
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1 hour ago, Malakree said:
Enlightened got reduced because they were the core of a very specific BoC army which was functionally a Tzeentch army in BoC because it had a better allegiance/spell.
Definitely not going up especially given that the rockgut kit is so new.
They have said that gloomspite is under-performing expectations and they are looking to give us a points decrease. While I would like a points decrease, 10 points wouldn't be unreasonable, I expect the big area we'll get a reduction will be on the Dankholds which are ridiculously overcosted.
Also given that the one area of Gloomspite which actually works is the Grot part, with the squig part being viable and the Trogg/Spiderfang parts being close to none entities I can't see the points reductions going anywhere other than Troggs/Spiderfang.
I know why it was done. Im pointing out that instead of taking the logical step and buff the competition out of worthlessness, they just increased the points of what did work, which isnt going to make em not be taken.
Hell with ungor point decrease many lists might remain the same or close enough considering they were often fielding one or two units of ungors to either backfield hold or sacrifice or both.
Bullgors and dragon ogres staying the same didnt really make sense, and it was one of the biggest complaints in the FB thread GW started around 8 months ago referencing changes that needed to be made in the generals hand book. Yet here we are, trust me i love me some troggoths and ill be super happy if they do get a point reduction, but i dont quiet foresee it since they are basically the beat monstrous infantry out there right now.
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Id like to point out troggs of felwater and rockgut variety are likely not going down in price and may in fact go up.
Look at how badly supported bullgors are in their book and how bad they are compared to fell waters or rockguts for the same cost.
Yet as opposed to going down in points to make them more attractive, they increased enlightened on disks in points.
Gw is at a point where they dont know how to balance elite units, because cheap bodies with masses of attacks that are easily buffed will blender most elite units and have enough mass to absorb all the punishment thrown at them.
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15 hours ago, Malakree said:
Aye but Troggoths are also the only subfaction with only 1 battalion. Functionally the Troggherd is our megabattalion but with no real option for a 1 drop. Considering that it's probably one of the weaker battalions AND it's also the most expensive the fact you can't 1 drop it burns pretty bad.
For comparison
- Spiderfang Stalktribe is 330 for a 1 drop with 3 battalions each with some solid buffs.
- Moonclan Skrap is 280 for a 1 drop with 2 battalions better effects.
- Squigalanche is 230 for a 1 drop with 2 battalions and the best battalion buffs in the book.
- Troggherd is 180 points for at best a 2 drop with 1 battalion and a pretty awful bonus.
To put it in perspective, a standard Dankhold Troggoth is probably the most overcosted Troggoth in the book. For 220 points it's expected damage is ~5.4. Now the absolute optimum unit in a Troggherd is a Fellwater Troggoth which gives you the best outcome possible, for every 3 Fellwater Troggoths in a Troggherd we get around ~1.56 damage.
This means a Troggherd has to have 9 Fellwater Troggoths in it to break even with our worst option, an option which is taken primarily for all it's other utility/buffs which I haven't accounted for. In reality if we compare it to Rockgut Troggoths (Since they average out worse than Fellwaters for basic situations) we're comparing it to ~10.3 damage So a Troggherd has to have at least 6 units of Fellwater Troggoths in it to break even with a unit of Rockguts. That means you're well over 1000 points into your army before a Troggherd even gets close to viability.
The least we could get for that is the ability to 1 drop our Troggoths and Gargants.
I'll be 100% honest I am super happy to swap to trolls for my monstrous infantry army, coming from BoC even if the battalion is mediocre the base profile on the units I actually want to take to make up said battalion are so many leagues ahead of minotaurs, that I am positively giddy .
I played a 2v2 game at 1250 per player the other day and the dankhold boss was positively eating units left and right, while the rockguts were incredibly difficult to remove and the fellwaters were deleting full stormcast units even with full saver rerolls. I felt that the army was very fun to play at the ...i dunno casual+ level, certainly not hyper competitive , but able to get a jump on players that arent expecting it , the look on my opponents face when i rolled 19 damage for my dankboss' 4 attacks was priceless and well worth the 300 points. -
2 minutes ago, Kazimer said:
But I CAN give my Doombull/Beast Lord a relic from Khorne book, right?
they dont meet the keyword requirements, BoK needs either demon + khorne , khorne+ mortal or bloodbound.
i like to give my doombull the ghyran relic with +1/+1 ghyrfan g or something? -
a beastlord with the mutated gnarlblade has more damage output than a doombull, so if you are going for all bestigors to begin with i'd say keep the theme
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how are you guys dealing with night haunts?
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3 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:
I can hear Seraphon going "get in line!"😅
But in all seriousness I actually kind of doubt new BoC models would come for a long while, unless you count 40k chaos beastmen.
BoC just aren't "important" to the grand scheme of things. I've mentioned this a while ago but any time in the fluff Beasts are in a battle, you could easily turn them into Slaves to Darkness Marauders and the end result would be the exact same. Dudes wearing no shirts smash things in the name of chaos. This Battletome imo was an "experiment" , more so than others like Bonesplitterz or Flesh Eaters (who at least have gotten a bit more of a fluff shift from original WFB).
The fact that no one saw the BoC book coming (except for dead hard believers in the AoS 2.0 preview) speaks volume on GW's investment into BoC. Compare that to the 4 Harbingers in Malign Portents which also includes the new snazzy Shadespire warbands. Even the New Player magazine they created to help get people into AoS has no mentioning of BoC, meanwhile has a excerpt on Skaven (not just Clan Pestilens, Skaven as a whole).
Unless theres some big campaign where Morghul or Kholek or "New Uberbeast McHorn Dude (TM)" show up, I'm not sure if BoC should expect anything for a good year or so.
I know I made a Seraphon joke but I would put money on a Seraphon model (and book) update over a BoC update. Seriously they made this massive fluff change, made lizards into order daemons, made them very "important" (relatively) in the fluff as the nemesis to Chaos, but yet still have to make do with old 6th edition plastics (those saurus knights uuuuugh) and plenty of metal/resin sculpts. How they still lack a plastic slaan is astounding to me. (though Eldar also still have no plastic Avatar for...reasons)
Of course that also being said I also suspect GW is trying to milk plastic sets for all their worth. So update things like saurus knights is probably out of the question. But they could at least finally update Kroxigors, especially with the Total War change.
And dont get me wrong, I love Beasts! But I'm reading between the lines a lot and the entire release of the BoC Battletome to me says "low cost investment to push some of our existing products". Especially since they've been taking risks with atypical model releases with the likes of Kill Team Rogue Trader or Adeptus Titanicus.
but lizardmen got several kits from the 8th edition release , so they are actually behind us in that line. From releases we are mostly behind brettonia only, and it looks like they just will never see an update again.
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8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Give skaven the love the need!!!
but BoC need it a hell of a lot more, Skaven got the vermin lord, tanquol and the stormfiends during the butt end of End Times. which are absolutely stunning . Beastmen's newest model that didnt just get taken from another army are the ghorgon and cygor, which came out in 7th edition.
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2 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:
Ok, so I’m clutching at straws here...
ive just looked over the Warhammer legends beast men pdf.
there isn’t an entry for taurox the brass bull.
Could this be an error or could it be that hope against hope Khorne has seen fit to release him back to the mortal realms?
perhaps he was trapped in nagash’s realm and released in the necroquake?
Pure wishlisting at best, but who knows!
i dont think he ever had a warscroll, when aos first released it said to just use rules for doombull and that was it.
despite him being a really cool and characterful unit, which deserved a model and rules. Meanwhile joke units like greesius goldtooth made it in with rules-
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2 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:
Kickstarter ended a long time ago. They are still delivering the models to backers, and will stock them in the store sometime in the next couple months.
They said it would be on the webstore come December when i messaged them
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2 minutes ago, Myrdin said:
I´ve been using small units of 5 as well. The lack of Rending and further staying power behind 1st turn is something that is noticable. Dont expect big units to hold for long despite 2W each, they will crumble through Battleshock.
However small fast units are great for harrasing your opponents back line, ranged units and warmachines, and for clearing enemy chaff, like the above mentioned undead puppers.
Would be great if they didnt skimp out all of the characters from our army. We could have a Centigor Chief running around with them and buffing them with its command ability. Ah well, I still keep my hopes for some new future releases, be it old units with shiny new models (centigors would be prime for this) or some new units like some of our named characters making a return (I mean who wouldnt like Kolek Sun Eater, the ancient of all Shaggots to make a comeback ?!)
For me personally Gorthor, Malagor, Kolek and Ghorros would be the top pic. Though honestly, seeing the new sculpts from AoS I think Slugtongue and Moonclaw on Umbralok (oooh beiby) might look insanely cool if they ever received models (and solid rules to go with them.
I mean at this point it would be nice to receive ANY new models, the quality in sculpts and dynamics of the poses has increased by leaps and bounds since we last got something.
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This is two conversions i am working on, minitaur on the right, and then demon prince based off of the old bloodthirster body. Apologies for not so great phone camera quality .
Edit: the mino is just blue tac temporarily to see how far down i have to shave neck for it to fit.
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1 minute ago, Logan8054 said:
Well mine is all legal so far. Its minotaurs with thunderwolf cavalry heads. The doombull has one from a privateer press warpwolf, which meets the former 60% gw requirement for playing at gw stores and sanctioned tournament.
As far as outside gw specific tournaments (so basically anything outside warhammer world and local gw store tourneys). Most tournaments have people running around with tons of third party bits or even third party armies.
Id say if you want to play it absolutely safe get the gnolls and take the heads only. 20 bucks for 20 heads + arm bits and weapons is still pretty much a steal.
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51 minutes ago, Myrdin said:
They are pretty much the same size as your avarage ungor. Even the bitz mix well as the scale is the same. In the pictures attached you can see a Gnoll Command group built using bitz from Ungor box. You can even use Gor shields (not hands and weapons thogh), which make them look quite tough (kinda gives off the viking shield wall vibe
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Honestly, I love those little buggers. Once painted they can easily hold their own next to your other Beastmen.
That is really cool actually. I actually like knolls far better than ungors and gors.
And im running an all wolf themed beastmen army, so you basically just saved me a ton of work.
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2 hours ago, Myrdin said:
BoC has quite the plethora of viable lists. Maybe not all of them super tournament competitive, but in a regular semi competitive game there most of the stuff in various combinations is quite viable.
I have yet to play a game with the same identical list twice.
As for Ungors - the only thing excluding is the Brass Despoilers, but otherwise they are quite good objective campers and herdstone sacrifices. Plus in big enough numbers they can screen rather nicely for those whole two units in our army that have range 2" (because of course huge bull monsters with two handed weapons are 1" !...... *salt increasing*). Personally I would not proxy Ungors for Gors (one of the reasons is the fact that your are not proxing them with a third party models but the actual Ungor/Gor ones, which can cause some unnecessary confusion)
For Ungors I personally use the Frostgrave Gnolls, who are essentially filling out 90% of all my Ungors the last 10% are the actual ungors which came from the old battalion box back in the day. The Gnolls are nice simple sculpts with enough variaty in poses heads and weapons + they come in box of 20 for 20 bucks. Absolute steal ! They dont have horns, but add in a bit more variety being a different type of a beastmen.
Arent frostgrave gnolls kinda large ?
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40 minutes ago, decker_cky said:
So GW is asking for feedback for GHB 2019. Here's my view:
- Gors - I'm not sure Gors would be taken even at 70/180 pts. Given their base size and stats, and compared to Marauders, I believe they would be justified as a 60/160 pt unit. That might be a bit agressive and 70/180 might be enough.
- Minotaurs - Glass hammer is tough to value, but I am not sure they are better value than Bestigors. 140 pts base, plus they should have a horde discount.
- Bestigors - Probably too cheap at min sized, but I'm not sure they're underpriced at horde size (due to the number of buffs that require the unit to be wholly within range) - 140/300 is probably fair
- Tzaangors - Good at min size. Given the nerf to large units, and the fact that their buffs are now "wholly within", need a bigger horde discount 180/400.
- Skyfires - Should be 160 pts
- Enlightened on foot - OK as is
- Enlightened on disc - Should be 160 pts
- Tzaangor shaman - no longer summons new units, so doesn't need the premium price. Should be 20 pts cheaper.
- Warhounds - 60 pts base, plus should have a horde discount.
- Chaos Spawn - 40 pts
- Jabberslythe - Needs to be cheaper
- Great bray shaman - probably actually worth 120 pts
- Chariots - 50 pts
- Brass Despoilers (190 p): Fair value
- Phantasmagoria of Fate (200 p): Weakest battalion benefit because you want to take it in armies that already want lots of wizards, but flexible and includes good units. 120 pts
- Pestilent Throng (200 p): 150 pts would be fair.
- Depraved Drove (150 p): Fair value.
- Desolating Beastherd (150 p): Fair value
- Hungering Warherd (150 p): Inflexible and weak, should be cheap. 100 pts
- Marauding Brayherd (180 p): Huge unit tax, should be very cheap: 60 pts
- Thunderscorn Stormherd (190 p): Inflexible, but decent benefit. 120 pts
bullgors should be 120 for how poorly supported they are internally tbh. that or be moved to 3+ to hit and remain at same price.
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Here i thought it was going to be the really ancient khornegors with hound faces
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4 hours ago, Kaleb Daark said:
Of all the characters to make a return to the realms he morghur and Malagor would probably be most likely candidates - the brass bull after all was infused with daemon essence after biting the head off the bloodletter champion, and more importantly in him we have a khorne hero who is a combat machine - as they should be - also (for me selfishly) he could lead a full blown khorne army.
Now that thanquol is back (curtesy of the new gotrek audio book) anything is possible.
I also think I heard right that the old beastmen khorngors and pestigors were coming up in the next round last chance to buy.
I don't believe they'll receive rules however
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1 hour ago, Myrdin said:
So gents, If you noticed GW had a sale of the old Beastmen miniatures like Gorthor, Wargor BSB and such. Now this by itself is "meh who cares unless I want them for collection" type of info since these units were dropped from the current book anyway.
But... after our book was released and I skimmed it back and forth a few times, and saw that the BoC as an experiment by GW, overall received a very positive feedback from the gaming community had a thought. If BoC does well, we might see some more units, namely old Named characters (Gorthor, Khazzrak, Morghur and Malagor. These guys had models, old as F, I know but still models never the less), might make an appearance in the form of "expansion pack".
Now this WOULD be amazing thing to happen. (Even more amazing would be for them to actually make new bloody sculpts for those and then release them with new crispy rules, but ah well).
But I am getting to convoluted in my message here - If you read the upper part of this GW update:
The top part that concerns Beast of Chaos read - bla bla re-release of some old fan favorite models, bla bla, and now the important part:
What’s more, we’ll be giving a host of Beasts of Chaos Heroes and units from the world-that-was a permanent home with a new Warhammer Legends download that lets you field a Chaos Beastmen army of the Old World in narrative and open play.
Now if this reads the same as my train of thought described above, we might very soon have some old characters make a comeback !
Here is the link to the "Warhammer Legends" heroes compendium:
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/ENG_HEROES_OCTOBER.pdfSo far the heroes like Helleborn, who logically should have "Daughters of Khaine" keyword, do not have that. I hope this will get updated, since without the keyword this thing is kinda worthless and serves only as a fancy read to see how the old heroes translated into AoS.
What are the odds of them giving the characters proper keywords so they can actually be used in a LEGAL game ?
I mean they thats the least they could do considering we didnt get even a single named char, but its GW so who knows how their brains work.
Edit: Yeah ignore what I said... I was hyped for a sec thinking we will get some actual named character back. Nope aint happening. Coz BoC cant have nice thing *sigh*. None of that stuff is compatible with BoC, no keywords and the old Primal Fury is there. It would have been so cool to have Gorthor as the General though. A goat can dream.
I would have liked the brass bull to actually get a sculpt and rules. Woulf have made a fantastic centerpiece for the army and a hell of a killy character.
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21 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Well Slaanesh isn’t bad either since their allegiance will allow your beastlord or Doombull etc. To take a command trait and artefact.
dont the slaanesh traits have keyword locks like khorne does?
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3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:
I disagree almost entirely but that's because I think you're looking at the strength of the list wrong. BoC aren't a list that kills very effectively (minus enlightened on disc) they're a fast board control army. Sure they don't have access to tons of sweet synergistic buffs but that's not the point. The point to take advantage of your move 12-16 units of 20-40 models to create sustainable board pressure while you outscore. Yeah plague monks get lots of bonuses, one of those isn't being at the center of the table or deeper on turn one without spending a single CP. This type of thinking is why people are so in love with Desolating Beastherd - its killy so therefore it must be good. But it isn't, it attempts to reorient an army that is designed to win by creating early scoring advantages into an army that wins in combat. I've tally'd up close to 30 games at this point since the book came out including 2 different 1 day 3 round events and I've yet to be ahead against a skilled opponent on units destroyed at the end of the game. Yet somehow I've managed to come out the winner in the majority because my only goal was be ahead on objective points on turn 3.
TL;DR - Stop trying to win games by being the best fighty army, learn board and objective control.
I think some people, me included, have problem wrapping our head around something that feels like losing/dying our way to victory. (I conceptually grasp it, but it doesnt.. feel right ?).
The tome since to rely almost solely on that mechanic bar a few units like enlightened that can counter push really well.
But old beastmen builds like minotaur and doom bull supported rushes are entirely unviable in anything but the most casual setting.
For an old beastmen player where my approach was buffing my blocks(god do i miss wizans wildform), the approach to debuffing enemy and holding the line is really strange.
And i totally see what you mean, and i dont think you are wrong. It feels instead like my preferred playstyle was dropped in an effort to push summoning and drive sales of legions of ungors and bestigors.
On the other hand some of the monsters are cool, but we cant really support monstermash play.
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9 minutes ago, Myrdin said:
I wouldnt necessarily say that. 1 less rend, and D3 instead of 3 damage is quite a big difference.
To me however the utility of fly and actual 2" range of his Demon axe is what makes it seem worth the extra points.If you go with sword it is 1 less rend and hitting on 2s .
The claw attacks are also completely superior to horn attacks.
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13 hours ago, Myrdin said:
When you Ally a DP from SoD, you can select one of the 4 Marks for him, or leave him unmarked.
Each of the options gives him a little something something. No mark - if you kill stuff you get 1 W back, if its a hero or Monster you get D3 W back.
Khorne +1 to hit, Nurgle +1 to Save, Slaanesh - can pile up and attack before the enemy during their turn, but can not attack twice, Tzeentch - becomes a Wizard, 1 cast 1 unbind, Arcane Bolt Mystic Shield.So yes, you absolutely can. I was considering the Slaaneshi one, but the Khorne one with a Demon Axe is to good to ignore. Thought about brinking a DB instead and have extra 40 pts, but the fact that this guy can fly and is faster swayed me to try him out.
for those extra 40 points the khorne one blows the doombull out of the water
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AoS2 - Dankhold Troggoth Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Oh , dont get me wrong. I love it, im just trying to figure out how GW figures bullgors,dragon ogres and skin wolves are priced properly.
If they just brought rockguts and fellwater down in price, and they were already arguably the best monstrous infantry.