Scurvydog
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Posts posted by Scurvydog
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3 minutes ago, umpac said:
Is there a Cap om waaagh pts? Assuming there isn't you will easily generate 44+ waaagh pts by turn 3-4 and have waaaghs that doesn't drain your points below 20..
well on a 2-5 you halve your points. 1 resets to 0 and 6 keep all points. Having so many points you still risk losing all, and you will only get so high with Gordrakk and at least 2 warchanters (and keeping them all alive). Gordrakk will be a MAGNET for every single ability the enemy can throw at him, especially when they figure out he is the main source that generates your buffs.
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Checking the official warscroll builder for stormcasts and all their named heroes can not choose artifacts or traits as expected but they can choose mount traits. It seems the keyword is the important part (gasp), so going by presedence and Gordrakks mount also saying "Mawkrusha, Big Teef" and having the Mawkrusha keyword, it is exactly the same as the stormcast named characters and their named mounts.
RAW there is nothing preventing Gordrakkfrom taking a mount trait, so I learned something today. This definitely brings him up a notch taking +1 dmg to his mount trait.
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9 minutes ago, Malakree said:
IMO the only base trait worth it is 24" WAAAGH!
The Ironjawz Whaagh is so incredibly poor, roll 11+ with a d6+units within range 18 or 24 with that trait, a 2k Ironjawz army running MSU will not have more than 10 units in most cases, so you need them ALL in range and alive to even get a Whaagh working. Getting that command trait for such an unreliable and underwhelming command ability you can use ONCE per battle is not something I quite follow. In the Great Whaagh it is not once, but most likely removes or takes a huge hit on all your essential buffs, no thanks.
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If running with a Mawkrusha general you'd be crazy to not use Ironclad, that alone is so good a command trait it can overshadow the Ironjawz allegiance Warclans forced traits. At least it says add one to saves, so does not worth with etheral amulet which ignores modifiers, positive and negative, so keeps that cheese away, also unable to combo it with the reduce rend by 1 from ironsunz as they have a forced 1 CP trait (meh).
A Mawkrusha with ironclad 2+ save, metalrippas claw on choppa/hacka combo for 8 attacks with rend 3 and the big un for +1 damage to fist and tails will be a terror to behold. Use a warchanter for more buffs and possibly the healing warbeat for laughs.
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13 minutes ago, ShaneHobbes said:
Anyone else feel like Ardboyz just completely overshadow GGs and especially Brutes? I'm starting to feel less excited about this update.
At 90 pts for 5 it evens out. 15 ardboyz for 270 and 10 brutes for 280, same wound count, ardboyz get some shield guys for just a tiny bit of survivability. The brutes will dish out more damage per pt while the ardboyz will have some more bravery if close to something and +2 charge from drums.
It is far closer, too close even to matter much, choose what you like basically. So brutes and ardboyz being almost interchangeable and filling the same roles, we have almost no variation in our model lineup as I feared.
This book is much much worse than for example fyreslayers, who with a wide range of lodges came up with different mechanics to make each interesting, while Ironjawz still have nearly no diversity.
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Just now, Warmill said:
Yeah +1 to hit and wound armywide is gonna be very hard to turn down, especially if Gordrakk + 2 chanters gets you there by start of turn 2.
Exactly as the same effect as mad as hell is already at 4 pts and at 8 you get +1 charge as well. The Ironfist with the free mighty destroyers (which you will not normally have access to in the Great Whaagh) will be just about mandatory for many lists I think, probably on a Grunta boss to get him where he needs to be.
Smashin and Bashing and all heroes access to mighty destroyers is not worth +1 hit and +1 wound armywide... the 6 pts ability to get +1 cast/unbind for d3 whaagh points is somewhat meh though.
If the Ironjawz Clans had been better this would be less of a no brainer.
Regarding mount traits as I read it under the mount trait section, it states the mount needs to be a Mawkrusha, while technically Gordrakk rides Big Teef as stated on his Warscroll, so I doubt trying to give him a mount trait will fly, unless you only look at keywords. Anyone got some experience from Stormcast with this? They are the only ones with mount traits and named characters on named mounts I recall.
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Well takeaways in broad strokes of what I see is best and worst.
Best:
Ironclad command trait is just +1 to saves, nasty
Destroyer is devastating on the now 8 attacks by the megaboss on the MK
Mount traits, the +1 damage is obvious
Spell lore is rather dangerous and damaging for relatively low cast values
Everything about warchanters, they are insanely useful and all their beats can be good
Ironfist battalion is now 1 free use per turn of mighty destroyers by the boss, this is really good value despite the 160 pts cost
Gordrakk is "only" 80 pts more than a regular MK and is baseline a decent upgrade, especially the command trait affecting 3 units instead of 1 for great value. He is far far more valuable in the great whaagh allegiance though.
Brutes are 140 pts and ardboyz can come in units of 5
Weirdnob shaman artifact generating CP on 4+ can make aetherquartz less mandatory or stack if you want, probably not, see the BAD.
The BAD
Ironjawz Clans are rather "meh" benefits are low, command abilities are not very interesting for 2/3, command traits and artifacts are rather poor. Choppas are the most interesting, especially the command trait which allows a warchanter to buff 3 units instead of 1, this might be the gamechanger if any among all the Clan stuff.
Gruntas are better but now more expensive, on the fence but putting it here.
Ardboyz are better but the most expensive choice at 180... eh.. I guess... otherwise Brutes would be pointless.
Ironjawz Whaagh, well damn that got nerfed HARD roll 1d6 and add number of units within 12/18" and equal or beat a reoll of 11! You now need 7 units in range for just a 50/50 chance of this even working at all, so so so bad, but frees us somewhat from CP stacking, hurrah...
All in all Ironjawz seem somewhat meh as an allegiance. I'd say take an Ironfist battalion in the Great Whaagh army so you can still use mighty destroyers, run pure Ironjawz there still, as all the warscroll only help Ironjawz or Bonesplitterz, so no warscroll synergy at all. Great Whaagh provides the Mad as Hell effect too anyway, also +to charge, so the Ironjawz allegiance only offers the worse Whaagh and baseline mighty destroyers command ability and Smashing and Bashing.
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8 minutes ago, Pitloze said:
Does Gordrakks removal of cover ability stay? It doesn't say until end of turn.
" In addition, after this model makes a charge move, you can pick 1 terrain feature within 1" of this model and roll a number of dice equal to the Massively Destructive Bulk value on this model’s damage table. If any of the dice are a 6, units no longer receive the cover modifier to their save rolls for being on or within that terrain feature. "
Yes I think he effectively wrecks it permanently.
10 ardboyz only deal 0,1 less damage than 5 brutes counting boss weapons and gore choppa, if ardboyz still cost only 140 which is the same as brutes were shown to cost, then Brutes are entirely pointless. Ardboyz will have more wounds, more models for objective grabbing, +2 charge from drums, +2 bravery in melee from banner and -1 to enemies from icon.
Brutes only have an edge vs models with 4+ wounds, but even then they got less wounds and bravery so still a hard sell. Keeping brutes at 6 bravery instead of taking them to 7 as the gruntas is also just confounding! To fix them they would need 2 rend on the gore choppa and +1 bravery at the very least.
Gruntas are now just below in damage in ongoing combat, but will pull ahead of both brutes and ardboyz on the charge, especially with the spears, so I can see groups of 6 of these now to receive the warchanter buff (as buffing 6 is more effective). example a unit of 6 gruntas with the gore-hackas who are buffed by a warchanter for +1 damage and are charging, assuming all 6 get into combat on the charge for mortal wounds, they will in total dish out an average of 31,2 damage to a 4+ save unit, that is incredibly dangerous!
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13 minutes ago, Malakree said:
It actually really adds up, having got it stacked a few times recently, with the extra wound/attack scaling up quickly.
Also you missed the key one, Big G has add 1 to the attacks of Smasha AND Kunnin.
When you include the fact they are on 2s/3s/-1 inflicting d3 mortals against wizards and heroes it very quickly racks up.
I am not impressed by Gordrakk at all, if he does not hit a hero or wizard, his average damage is 12,2 where a standard MK with the +1 dmg to tail and fist is at 13,6 against 4+ save models. 8 Bravery seems silly and he should at least have 9 to reflect is vastly improved status compared to a regular megaboss.
He is shown as a demigod but he is really just a tweak to regular mawkrushas, especially now they have access to mount traits, Big Teef with just 1 more attack seems puny.
If he is still 100+ points more expensive than a regular MK I would only begin considering him in a Great Whaagh for the 6 points they talked about or if I do not use battalions and already got 1 Mawkrushas to use a trait with.
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The warscroll that got a bit worse is Brutes, although they got significantly cheaper. Not sure I like that change, but eh.
Footboss lost the fist attacks, but gained the new command ability, reflect mortal wounds on save and the much much better strength from Victory, so he should definitely not be worse tham before.
Gruntas look cool, glad I got 12 of them now with a 50/50 mix of weapons, hackas with 3 attacks instead of 4 but with the 2" range and +1hit/wound on charge is a real choice now.
1 Warchanter minimum per 1k points seems to be madness not to take, they are incredible now with both warbeat "prayers" and +1 dmg guaranteed buff, combined with the megabosses +1 hit command ability, every single unit in the army can become an outright terror by throwing these around (and help trigger smashing and bashing).
The damage output of mawkrushas is now a great deal higher if you take the +1 damage to tail and fist trait, then it goes from roughly 9 damage in average against a 4+ save model with the old rules to 13.6 now including trait, without the trait it is almost the same as it was. Basically taking a MK wihtout a trait is a worse deal than before due to the cost increase to 460 we saw.
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Will be interesting to see if the Great Whaagh has anything else than the Whaagh table. While it does sound powerful, it leaves little room for customization. They did mention artifacts from the individual factions could be used in the great Whaagh, so wonder if that is true for command traits and mount traits. A Mawkrusha with 8 attacks 2+/2+/rend -2 and 2+1 damage from the mount trait will be a true monster if so.
Do this, then give the MK megaboss the big tree artifact for 1 combat, then buff with a warchanter and your MK now averages 35 damage against a 4+ save unit. For those times where you want something deader than dead.
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A Mawkrusha with 8 attacks base and 3+/3+/rend 2/dmg2 is a decent trade, especially with mount traits, give it +1 damage, then have a warchanter nearby for +1 damage and maybe +hit from warboss CP or in general from great whaagh... That will hurt real bad!
Consolidating weapon profiles, like giving the mounted megaboss 6 attacks straight helps with giving him artifacts, but hurts with +1 attack Whaags...
The Whaagh bomb before made brute bosses with their 2 weapons truly terrifying, but lets see if the allegiance abilities and warclan rules make up for it.
I am worried about brutes though and how they are supposed to compete with ardboyz with these new profiles.
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8 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
The sales of current StD may also have something to do with it. Their box has been sitting in "Last Chance to Buy" since before I started Warhammer, so I don't think they project a lot of return on investment for them.
The darker approach is neccessary to narrate two Order armies fighting one another, and is an easy way to improve the writing from what it was in the beginning.
My beef for SCE in sets was more about the Underworld base sets, the first three base sets (which you need) had Stormcast in them, and so does "Start to Play".
I have eyed the Darkoath Warqueen a few times, I think the model looks really nice, but the army she needs to support simply isn't worth starting. I may cave at some point though.
Well this is the self fulfilling prophecy. Of course a box set will have limited sales with such poor support from the company. Several in my gaming group were tempted because they like StD as a concept, even the models are decent but somewhat outdated, but the box was great value for an instant 1k army to enjoy, although everyone knew the rules are terrible and basically unplayable in any game with just a slight competetive flavor, so nobody bought them.
Then GW goes "oh these did not sell well, better not focus on that" which results in even less sales. I choose to believe this is so obvious, that GW does not do business like that. Looking at Seraphon and StD christmas boxes now, it feels like a way for them to clear out old stock more than anything, as these are the 2 top neglected AoS armies currently.
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Ardboyz with big choppas had 2 attacks 4+/3+/rend -1 before, with 2 weapons they had 3 attacks but 0 rend. Now they got 2 attacks 3+/3+/rend -1 across the board regardless of model. This solves WYSIWYG problems and is overall an offensive output improvement. If brutes receive no further improvements and 10 ardboyz are also 140 points, then the offensive gap will be much lower and ardboyz win with both model count and wounds. Will have to see the final warscrolls for both to be sure.
From how they explained the great whaagh points build up and you get all the buffs up to and including the current amount of points, so at 20 points you should get all the buffs we know about so far, so improved casting, +1 charge, +1 hit and +1 wound at least, including a few other things most likely. This will make actually expending them a hard choice.
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No the table is for the great whaagh, although +1 charge is an early buff for like 6 or 8 points. If you bring Gordrakk and 2 warchanters for example you get 10 points per turn, so you could have 20 points by turn 2 and have +1 to hit and +1 wound to all Orruks units. That is Insanely powerful.
Now we have not seen the new Gore Gruntas new warscroll, but using the old ones as reference, they would be quite devastating, especially with a warchanter to buff them with +1 damage and possibly 3d6 charge range. If they still get +dmg on the charge, they will turn into a terrifying missile of destruction, riders being 2+/2+ and 2 dmg, and the boards 3+/3+ possibly with 1+d3 damage.
No doubt Ironjawz in both versions will be more powerful and flexible than they are now. I do think that the Great Whaagh army is best suited for larger games and it does sound like Gordrakk might nearly be a must have, even the 2 warchanters as getting to 20 points by turn 2 instead of 3 for both +1 hit and +1 wound.
We do not know if there are more ways to expend the points than just the whaagh ability either, but they have to be powerful to lose those buffs.
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Might see some in the warhammer TV licensing show tomorrow, but there was some evidence pointing to a studio of the old chaps behind the company of heroes games working on the AoS IP, and seeing something like DoW 2 in the AoS setting would make me very happy.
An age of reckoning style RvR game would also be sweet but a mighty undertaking to create, maybe starting less ambitious like previous projects could keep it from spreading itself too thin to begin with.
Lastly a Witcher 3 style RPG, I would even live with a Stormcast which would probably be the protagonist just to travel and explore the lands and really get to explore some of the cities of the realms, with meaningful interactions with different characters and races in the AoS setting.
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43 minutes ago, Vanger said:
Got to watch too late. Any improvement on brute weapon profiles?
might be an error but looked like he used 4 dice for both hackas and choppas with both 3+/3+ which would not make more sense, maybe someone spotted something different? Boss weapon is now just claw and smasha, 4 attacks 4+/3+/rend 1/2dmg so worse than both combos right now, unless he did that wrong as well. No special rules either for that. No mention of duff up da big thing either (didnt come up though). So all in all they sounded a bit worse warscroll wise.
The Megaboss on foot also sounded like having the same statline, although like the MKs the new strength from victory rule is better, he got a new command ability in addition to the allegiance stuff but upped to 150 pts.
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Just now, Xoledas said:
It's +1 wound and +1 attack if he slain any model this turn. Strong up!
Aha, then that makes a bit more sense, but still very powerful now and will be important a lot more often!
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They play the new "strength from victory" as +1 wound and attack not per hero kill but per MODEL kill. That just have to be a mistake, if not jeebuz Kronks!
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24 minutes ago, Kasper said:
Tail and fists are 1 profile now. I believe they said 9 attacks, +2/+3/-2/2 damage (down from 3 on the fists). The weapon choices should also be only 1 attack profile.
that was for Gordrakk though, so expect the regular version to most likely be 7 attacks like that, which is sort of the average as before with 4x3 dmg and 1xd3 potential damage. The mount trait boosting that with +1 damage will be crazy good though, something else will have to be incredibly good to match that, and se far we already know about +2 move, 4+ ignore spells and the bellow one I already forgot what did.
If mighty destroyers is still a command ability, then having 2 allegiance and also 1 clan command ability seems a bit over the top, but options are good I guess. I cant recall we have seen anyone get so many command abilities tied to their allegiances though.
Warchanters look incredibly good, +1 damage buffs will be crazy, imagine that in a great whaagh too, with Gordrakk and 2 chanters, you would get the +1 to hit AND +1 to wound buffs by turn 2. Even the lowly ardboyz will be 2 attacks 2+/2+/rend-1/2 damage with those buffs!
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It might very well all be bad, but indeed lets wait and see, for Ironjawz specifically we have only the mad as hell rule and the 1 warband, which is the old battalion and quite underwhelmning. We know nothing else for sure, other than the great whaagh army, but I guess you can use only Ironjawz there as well, so we have to see what they will do to balance this, as either the great whaagh is better no matter what, or the individual armies are better.
I'd be surprised if "Mad as hell" is the only allegiance ability for the pure Ironjawz army, even though I quite like it. Of course all this also depends on new warscrolls as well.
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1 minute ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:
I cannot wait to play an entire game just so i can get +1 attack.
Unless the escalation is bonkers, or massive tweaks happen, this just killed the army.
If you look closer, already at 16 you get +1 to hit and at 20 you get +1 wound to all orruks, so before you can use whaagh you already have +1 to BOTH! And you have not even seen the other buffs or hero warscrolls yet, which will get other command abilities in addition to the option of whaagh.
We have also only seen 1 allegiance rule, which looks cool and only 1 clan rule, still artifacts, battalions, mount traits, command traits, new warscrolls etc etc. Saying anything has killed an army just because a broken ability is not there is very premature.
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Absolutely no reason to call anything nerfed at this point. I think most people are happy to see Whaagh in the current form gone, replaced by whatever allegiance abilities lies in the book, so the warboss now has a more "generic" ability to use as well. If the blurry image is what it looks like and the profile really is 8 atks 3+/3+ rend -2 and 2 dmg, he is by far the most brutal melee foot hero at base value, before counting any other special abilities and such. Combining the weapons into 1 profile is also MUCH better for artifacts, if destroyer with +1 damage appears again, jeez imagine 8 attacks with rend 2 and 3 damage on a foot hero, auch.
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I expect all warscrolls to be changed, proably ardboyz the least and the warchanter/megaboss/Mawkrusha the most. I would not be surprised if the warchanter form IJ gets some "prayers" like Khorne Slaughterpriests as they seem to fit the same kind of role. I don't expect them to just still be +1 to hit, that seems too basic these days, but guess time will tell soon enough now.
AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion
in Destruction
Posted
Just rewatched it, he goes over it rather quick, but you are right, still it is only 1 time per game, so while better, I still would not use my command trait to extend the range from 18" to 24", then I would just go with one of the clans.