[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

13 minutes ago, Doko said:

yup that would make sense from balance perspective,but blisbarbs have 1 extra wound than irondrakes and fussilers and also a ward5 in every phase since turn 1 with luck or turn2 for sure(slanesh sumon points passive) 

so in truth blisbarbs are more sturdy than both irondrakes and fussilers with a 10% more wounds and ward5 for only 2 less save

I'm not really sure why I'm replying since I don't think you are doing any of this in good faith and have a history of getting rules wrong and cherry picking points, but I'll give it a try! 

Anyone here play Slaanesh? I don't think the blissbarb build gets depravity so high normally, they don't have much of a way to trigger euphoric killers unless you let them. I've generally seen lists running the Masque, or the close combat mounted guys for early points)

That said, allowing it, Iron Drakes shooting Blissbarbs with a 5++ do the same expected damage to Blissbarbs after the ward as the Blissbarbs do back. Fusiliers do less total damage than Iron Drakes to Blissbarbs (4.38 rather than 5), but take considerably less back (3.05 to 4.19 depending on how generous you are with letting Blissbarbs not bother with the rend debuffs they can't use).

 

As I said though, I think Blissbarbs are probably too good and I hope they get a nerf in the next points change, along with other slaanesh units getting a buff. I think the game is better when spamming all one unit is not the right call.

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

2 minutes ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

The absence of any lore or art or painting or photo guides for dwarves or eleves in the book too. I dont think its posisble to be any more certain that a 2nd human wave and ultimate removal of the dwarve and elven side by the next book is cominy. Super sad to see but hopefully I'll get at least 18months of play with the dark elves before that time comes.

I'm relatively hopeful that they'll be something they can be used as in other armies. Probably lumineth, but deepkin are a possibility as well, even assuming no Malerion faction. I'm not sure I'm taking the lack of art as proof though, if they were making new city dwarfs and elves I don't know if they'd spoil how they looked this early. It's possible that if won't work out, but who knows? It does feel like another wave is coming. I'm hoping that it's humans first, then second wave finishing off humans and adding some of other species. I do want city ogor as well.

 

3 minutes ago, Doko said:

hnnnn are you reading the same numbers and table that you have posted?

how is posible that you consider actual irondrakes as surprisingly effective when reading YOUR table show how irondrakes if move have only half damage than blisbarbs,and if dont move only a 10% more damage, so you consider a good balance that? in my mind a good balance would be same tradeoff, 50% less than blisbarb if moved and 50% better if dont move,that is called a good balance and not a penalty of 50% worse and only 10% better if dont move.

in fact as i said irondrakes must cost 110,seeing your table is closer to balanced, against save 4 for this cost irondrakes moving are around 40% worse than blisbarbs and if dont move are a 40% better,that in my dictionary is called a perfect tradeoff and balanced.

 

so thanks for your table,maybe i gonna steal it and send it to gw to further claim as irondrakes must cost 110 to be balanced

You're welcome I guess! I have read the table thanks yeah. I don't think GW are likely to read it the same as you will though. As I said, I think Iron Drakes suffer from movement issues, it's definitely their weakspot, and might make them not worth using. 

What I was surprised by was how comparable to fusiliers without flaming weapons they were when they move, and when they remain stationary they are pretty close to fully buffed Fusiliers. If you figure they are going to have to move around 1.5 turns that's pretty close to the chance of flaming weapons failing. They are doing that with no support, so if you aren't wanting to go all in on building your castle, dwarfs might actually be an ok idea, Hammerers end up working quite well as a hammer. Appropriately enough I suppose.

I'm not too concerned with them being out performed by blissbarb, especially given those numbers are achieved with pretty much the optimum damage using a total of 1490 for one, and 1620 for the other. That's even before you factor in widespread speculation that Blissbarbs are going to be nerfed.

There are definite points in cities favour, a 4+ save is a lot more durable than a 6+, particularly if it's either unrendable at range (fusiliers) or the unit can get a 5+ Ward in combat (Iron Drakes).

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

8 hours ago, Doko said:

i have discussed this before,and even i have sent many emails to the faq team of gw with the maths and explaining how irondrakes are garbage and must get a new scroll.

 

rigth now irondrakes have a similar damage output and cost to reavers or blisbarbs archers, so far good,now the problem,reavers and blisbarbs have bonus as run and charge or +1 hit of reaver but irondrakes only a huge penalty.

 

in fact irondrakes cost the same than these two units but have the half damage if move,less range and less move.

even they lost his +1 save to shooting.

 

as i have  said to gw in my emails,irondrakes need two options:

option1: change cost to 110 

option2: increase cost to 170 but change his number of shooting to 2 and change the bonus when dont move from +1 attack to +1 rend.

rigth now dont make sense to nobody how is posible irondrakes cost the same than blisbarbs when have half treathrange and half damage if move,and worse even with this book irondrakes lost EVERY BUFF AVAILABLE, they lost the rend of runelord,lost the +1 wound of longbeards and the multiples +1 hit as the hurricanum.

rigth now irondrakes are useless and havent any buff available(only the ward5 and -1 to be wounded)

The FAQ team are for frequently asked questions, not "I want this unit to be better".

Iron drakes currently are surprisingly effective. They are just a massive pain in the butt to get into range. I just wish they had the castellite keyword, or were eligible to use suppressing fire with. It feels like if they could use the orders more they wouldn't need much else. I wish the Advance in Position order worked with them, or at least Misthaven/Living City. I do wonder whether early drafts might have been too easy to abuse, and these are the "Safe" Iron Drakes. 

Moving Irondrakes aren't as far below non flaming weapons Fusiliers than I expected. Damage numbers in the table below have been standardised to 100 points of unit. Assuming 10 Iron drakes, 20 Fusiliers, 20 Fusiliers with a Warforger, 10 Blissbarbs, 88 Blissbarbs and 5 Seekers and assuming pretenders for triple AoA. 

If you had Irondrakes at 110 points they would be far and away the most efficient unit in the army. Not included in the table below are scourgerunner chariots, they are surprisingly efficient, a unit of 3 with a fleetmaster to all out attack for the bonus shooting is pretty close to fully buffed up Fusiliers, and actually beats everything here against vs monsters. 

Save	AoA Irondrakes Moved	AoA Irondrakes Stationary	AoA Fusiliers	Flaming Weapons AoA CT Fusiliers	AoA Blissbarbs	88 Bliss Barbs, 66 AoA, 22 without, 5 Seekers for Rend	88 Bliss Barbs, 66 AoA, 22 without, 5 Seekers and Shardspeaker for Rend	AoA Irondrakes Moved at 110 points	AoA Irondrakes Stationary at 110 Points
0+	0.64	1.27	0.78	2.59	1.22	1.04	1.85	0.93	1.85
1+	0.75	1.50	0.78	2.59	1.22	2.01	2.81	1.09	2.19
2+	1.39	2.78	1.56	3.39	2.43	3.05	3.77	2.02	4.04
3+	2.03	4.05	2.33	4.19	3.65	4.10	4.73	2.95	5.89
4+	2.66	5.32	3.11	4.99	4.86	5.14	5.69	3.87	7.74
5+	3.30	6.60	3.89	5.78	6.08	6.18	5.75	4.80	9.60
6+	3.82	7.64	4.67	6.58	7.29	6.26	5.75	5.56	11.11
7+	3.82	7.64	4.67	6.58	7.29	6.26	5.75	5.56	11.11

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

5 minutes ago, Doko said:

i edited the first post to be nice to you seeing as you tougth was rude and evade posible next problems but seems you ignored it and even you went beyond.

im spanish and the asterisk wasnt nothing rude,i wroted scr ew that isnt something rude in my idiom and is something as modify the data.

again i only said that the table is wrong when dont compare same cost vs same cost.

even if we ignore the +1 rend of blisbarbs,only adding 4 more blisbarbs to the table to get it to 380 points and closer to the 390 of fussilers then blisbarbs win.

but i get it,next time i wont say anithing, i couldnt avoid it seeing people compare  units vs units and forget the huge gap in points,usually the comparations are made same points vs same points to be acurate

If you fully * out a word people are going to assume the worst, particularly when a different, harsher word also fits. Something like sc*wed is clear. Otherwise you risk people assuming the word starts with F. I apologise if it seemed like escalating, was attempting to explain why I thought it was aggressive. 

I know the first table did not account for points. Every other table has. Specifically comparing fusiliers with AoA, command trait and flaming weapons to Blissbarbs with AoA then once you factor in the fact that Fusiliers are 21% more expensive then Blissbarbs are more efficient when shooting targets with 4+ or worse saves. Fusiliers are more efficient Vs 3+ and better.

Blissbarbs honestly seem really amazing. I don't think anyone is trying to say that Fusiliers are too good. I think they are a good unit in cities of sigmar, and interact really well with orders. I don't know what agenda you think people have. I'm just trying to work out how different units interact, and what we can expect them to do. The comparison to Blissbarbs came about because people were disappointed in the damage output of Fusiliers and having a successful shooting unit compare to is a useful thing. One thing I've found looking at the numbers is that if you have a fully buffed up fusilier unit rerolling hits then you are usually better off fishing for 6s unless the target has a 5+ or worse save. That's not a thing I would have known without actually checking it.

I really don't want you to "just not say anything" . Can you tell me what I have done wrong in this tables that I've been posting? I might have, I realised when I was looking at drake spawn knights that I had the wrong number of mount attacks at first and corrected them.

First table I included is taking the expected damage for each unit, then dividing by the number of points, then multiplying to get what a theoretical 100 points of that unit would be. So 5.1 buffed Fusiliers Vs 5.56 AoA Blissbarbs and so on. That's the one with Fusiliers getting 3.39 expected to a 2+ and 6.58 expected to no armour save. Blissbarbs are 2.37 to a 2+ save 7.12 to no armour save.

The second table I included looks at how many points of each unit is needed to do 1 damage to a target.

Both factor in the different points cost for the unit.

 

What would you like me to do? I keep explaining how I am factoring in points and you don't seem to be reading it. I might be factoring them in wrong, but if I am I don't understand how.

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

3 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

if you want ****** the data great,but i hope nobody take it as real when is fake.

That's a quote from your original response, you have since edited. Generally when people use asterisks they are trying to evade the censors and the starred out word is a curse word.  if I understand what you were trying to type that's a very rude way of putting an already very impolite accusation.

46 minutes ago, Doko said:

hnnn why my post was agresive only for saying that is wrong calculate bufed units vs unbufed units?

also dont take in count the cost, see a table of 390 points of fussilers vs 320 of blisbarb is wrong since the start because arent same points.

i could post the real data with same points of fussilers vs same points of blisbarbs and blisbarbs full buffed wit +1 rend and the data would show how blisbarbs are better and dont need a spell that is isnt relyable neither spend one cp neither one warlord trait.

in fact blisbarbs need a increase of 20/30 points to be balanced while fusilers need a reduction of 20 points.

 

but even if fussilers are overcosted for their damage,they are one key unit of our book,supresive fire make playable units as hammerers,also the counter fire with a good brain open many plays.

I'm going to be short on this, and not go into quote storm. The numbers Neil Arthur Hotep quoted originally do include all the buffs he noticed, it's not comparing buffed to unbuffed units. He listed the buffs he included which include hero buffs and spells. He may not have included every buff possible (specifically he missed blissbarb seekers conditional improvement to rend), but he listed which buffs he included and I think got most of them. He included the points of the buffing units in the cost. That's why fusiliers are down as 390 points for 20, and blissbarbs are down as 320. What he didn't do is factor the cost into that, which is a perfectly legitimate thing to quote, since it's what you expect that unit to do in damage.

I took his numbers and factored in the cost. I actually did it two ways..the first way is that I took the damage numbers for fusiliers and divided by the cost of the unit of fusiliers, then multiplied by 100 to get a uniform view of what 100 points of unit can expect to do. It's a slightly arbitrary point value to set to, but I think it works quite well as a comparison.

The other way I factored in the cost was working out how many points worth of fusiliers or blissbarbs it would take to do one point of damage, which JackS wanted to see. That also factors in the cost so 390 points of Fusiliers expects to do 13.22 damage to a 2+ save, so 390 points divided by 13.22 damage gets you an expected 29.05 points of Fusiliers to expect to do 1 damage to a 2+ save. I did a full set of tables for each of the lists options. 

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

I found myself going to this site quite often when looking for a specific warscroll and being to lazy to open the book (when it come sto faction books that I have).

Here is the Ratling gun warscroll specifically :
https://wahapedia.ru/aos3/factions/skaven/Ratling-Gun

Thanks Myrdin! I do know about Wahpedia, and did check the exact wording but since I don't play Skaven it's a lot more reliable to ask somehow who plays the faction for which buffs to apply and I can check for exact wording when I know what to look for. Even something like "Lore spell and battle trait buff" is enough to make it so I don't miss something.

 

I'll have a look at numbers in the morning, if I get too excelly/Google sheets late at night I end up too awake to get to sleep!

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

21 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

No love for Ratling Guns?!?

I can include Rattling Guns if you'd like! What buffs would you like on them that aren't on the warscroll, I don't have the Skaven book.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

blisbarbs archers and idoneth reavers are the standar of ranged units with rend1

also is fun as in all these tables you guys are doing a comparation of fussilers with a spell that can faill and be canceled and a enhacement while the others units are almost unbufed and without any enhacement or spell.

if you want ****** the data great,but i hope nobody take it as real when is fake.

per example blisbarbs get a very easy acess to +1 wound and -1 save to enemy and here have been ignored.

or use unbuffed stats where fussilers are worse by a huge gap or use full buffed stats where fussilers are worse by a big gap,but only fussilers full buffed vs others units almost umbufed? its pointless

 

 

I don't know what the asterisks are standing for there, but I'm taking it as you saying that people are massaging the data. 

That's not my intent, my primary initial goal is to work out what kind of expected damage outcome you get from each unit, since it can be pretty important for battle tactics, you don't want to accidentally kill the unit you are trying to suppress to score that battle tactic. 

Neil Arthur Hotep calculated the expected damage numbers for the other shooting options and applied all relevant buffs to them (including a spell for the lumineth, other buffing characters for other units). I can't think of any that he missed, and he was very open about all the buffs used. I've not directly checked them, but given his fusilier numbers are exactly the same as mine I figure he is right. 

If you want to have the unbuffed Fusilier numbers you are more than welcome, I think I might have included them in a previous post but not sure, I'll do a post with it when I'm at my desk. Tried to set up a pretty one from Google sheets from my phone and that was not happening.

What kind of "Unmassaged" numbers are you looking for? Sounds like you want Idoneth Reavers added. I don't know deepkin very well, other than AoA what would buffed up Reavers include? I think blissbarbs were just getting the homunculus and all out attack buff, but would gladly include whatever you want.

I don't know if you intended to, but your message feels quite aggressive, I think this has mostly been a pretty chill conversation about a faction it sounds like a lot of us are excited to try out. I know I'm looking forward to trying out some Dark Elves I always thought were neat and am trying to work out how to do my colour scheme to tie things in. 

I'm thinking of a White, Black and Burgundy scheme, maybe changing the primary colour depending on the subfaction. My first attempt at cities (Which was 75% high and wood elves, D'oh) had some issues where I was keeping too close to one scheme, and I ended up with some very dull looking dwarves. If I'm painting some lumineth allies as well I want it to match (considering Sererith for some shooting, mortal wounds and potential objective grabbing).

 

 

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

26 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Damage per point invested (babysitting heroes, command points etc.) would make this calculation more useful

Example 20 Fusiliers:

150x2 + 90 + 90 + 50(Command point)

=530points

that‘s ~20,64pts per damage

 

I've looked at the efficiency of units by taking the expected damage of the unit (Calculated by Neil Arthur Hotep in these, since I've only done the CoS directly myself, I believe his numbers) . and dividing it by the points cost of the unit and multiplying by 100 to get what 100 points of that unit's damage is, with a goal of getting easy to grokk how units compare to each other. I absolutely agree that efficiency really isn't everything when it comes to calculating this stuff. I actually quite like steam tanks, and they come out pretty dreadfully on efficiency but also fight pretty well, and are absurdly tough vs non mortal wounds. Units that do a bunch of things are often look terribly on efficiency metrics but then question you need to ask yourself is whether you will be using enough of the things the unit can do, or alternatively whether one of the situational good points is so good in those situations if its worth taking the efficiency hit.

 

Jack, I've calculated the points per damage for each of the units. I haven't added in command point costs through, since while I agree it is a cost its a cost that is going to vary substantially army to army. If you are greywater fastness then its barely any cost to AoA. Same for the command point rich Hedonite build. 

Save	Fusiliers with Alchemite (Pt Per D)	Blissbarb Archers (Pt Per D)	Lumineth Sentinels (Pt Per D)	Vanguard Raptors with Longstrike (Pt Per D)	Man-skewer Boltboyz with Swampcalla (Pt Per D)
2+	29.50	42.16	37.91	43.11	54.31
3+	23.88	28.09	33.68	35.69	47.09
4+	20.06	21.07	30.30	30.44	41.51
5+	17.29	16.86	27.56	26.54	37.16
6+	15.19	14.05	25.26	26.54	33.63
-	15.19	14.05	25.26	26.54	33.63

 

2 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

 

I normalised to 100 points for each of those, to give which is the most efficient. Blissbarbs are more efficient than Fusiliers vs 5+ saves or better. That said its fairly close, and blissbarbs are a very good unit.  Note that the buffing pieces are being factored into the cost here, which isn't quite fair to Fusiliers, since Flaming wounds also buffs all other humans around as well.

 

 

Save	Fusiliers with Alchemite	Blissbarb Archers	Lumineth Sentinels	Vanguard Raptors with Longstrike	Man-skewer Boltboyz with Swampcalla
2+	3.39	2.37	2.64	2.32	1.84
3+	4.19	3.56	2.97	2.80	2.12
4+	4.98	4.75	3.30	3.28	2.41
5+	5.78	5.93	3.63	3.77	2.69
6+	6.58	7.12	3.96	3.77	2.97
-	6.58	7.12	3.96	3.77	2.97

 

9 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

So you think at 2000 pts "only" 30 Fusiliers are enough for competitive ? I don't know, feeling like tournament folks will try to run 60+ of those. 

About Fusiliers, I'm really puzzled by Blackpowder Bombardment. How do you shoot 3 units of the board in one go if you only have one unit of Fusiliers ? I don't think you will use cannons for that...

Not the person you asked, but I'll have a go! 

 

I suspect there is a good chance that there is a spam build, but I wouldn't put it as a certainty by any measure. I think there is a very good chance that it does end up peaking at a single unit, since you are buff limited, and its not very mobile. Black Powder Bombardment I don't put as a particularly top tier battle tactic for any build honestly. I think its a really good one to have access to, but its situational. I would probably want more shooting units than a big block of fusiliers, but that can be incidental shooting. I suspect it gets taken when the situation is that you have a screen, a juicy target, and a buffing hero with the juicy target.

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

You could definitely be right, full shooting castles have been successful in the past. For example, for Lumineth, for a while 40-60 Sentinels with Teclis was one of the best lists. However, AoS is still a game about going out and doing stuff. Running 60 Fusiliers is just barely possible. You can fit them into the Alchemite's bubble for his spell.

But beyond that, two units of 30 become much less efficient than one unit of 30. One of the blocks will definitely miss out on +1 to wound, because that is tied to your general issuing the command. One of them will likely miss out on All-Out Attack completely, because getting uses of the command would mean running Greywater, but that competes against running a city with a casting bonus. You would also need to run 2x10 Steelhelms to make the units battleline in order to reinforce them. At that point, you are 1190 points down and have not even started to include units that can play the objective game. Or other really valuable stuff like the Command Corps or Zenestra.

In my opinion, Cities has better options than to try to double down on shooting. You can have a good, powerful shooting unit and still play in other phases, which is generally preferable if you are going for consistent tournament results.

 

You can split shots. One unit can shoot at as many targets as it can see/has in range.

However, Blackpowder Bombardment becomes a lot easier to do if you run other units with incidental shooting attacks alongside your Fusiliers. Steam Tanks can definitely shoot a screen off the table on their own, for example.

Sorry for the long post, two people responded while I was typing.

Assuming a screen unit has a 5+, an Overloaded but not AoA Steam tank does an expected 5.9 wounds (7.2 to a 6+), jumping to 8 and 9.3 if you have flaming weapons on the tank.

You are looking at 3ish from an unbuffed scourge runner, and 3.3/4 from unbuffed handbow corsairs.

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

 

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Damage calculations of Fusiliers vs. various boogeyman shooting units I could remember off the top of my head:

Save	Fusiliers with Alchemite (390 pts)	Blissbarb Archers (320 pts)	Lumineth Sentinels (320 pts)	Vanguard Raptors with Longstrike (460 pts)	Man-skewer Boltboyz with Swampcalla (340 pts)
2+	13.22	7.59	8.44	10.67	6.26
3+	16.33	11.39	9.5	12.89	7.22
4+	19.44	15.19	10.56	15.11	8.19
5+	22.56	18.98	11.61	17.33	9.15
6+	25.67	22.78	12.67	17.33	10.11
-	25.67	22.78	12.67	17.33	10.11

Details:

  Reveal hidden contents

20 Fusiliers at +1/+1 plus the Alchemite mortal wound spell.

20 Blissbarbs at +1/+1.

20 Sentinels at +1 to hit, aimed shot, with 5+ mortal wound spell.

6 Vanguard raptors at +1 to hit.

6 Boltboyz at +1 to hit, hasty shot, with 5+ mortal wound effect.

All units with appropriate leader bonuses.

I may well have forgotten a reroll or +1 to wound/+1 attacks effect somewhere. Let me know if I have and I will update this post.

Fusiliers are absolutely in the top tier of shooting units. Other units have advantages over them in some categories: For example, Blissbarbs are more mobile and are more spammable and Vanguard Raptors get to shoot twice once per game. But Fusiliers are still excellent. Their Fortified Position is actually a real upside, too: Combined with the counter-fire order, it means they can't easily be shot off the table by other shooting units, which is generally the easiest way to combat shooting.

EDIT:

I think the opportunity cost for the Master of Ballistics command trait is fairly low. The other human command traits only really shine in pretty specific builds. Grizzled Veteran can go on a Marshall on Griffon and very little else. Reroll charges is good, but you can just use command points for it. Becoming a priest and getting a +1 to wound prayer does not seem as good as Master of Ballistics in most situations.

The most important buff for Fusiliers is the Alchemite spell. If you have that, you can forego Master of Ballistics and still do very good damage. You don't have to give up your command trait to get good Fusilier shooting if you don't want to.

I normalised to 100 points for each of those, to give which is the most efficient. Blissbarbs are more efficient than Fusiliers vs 5+ saves or better. That said its fairly close, and blissbarbs are a very good unit.  Note that the buffing pieces are being factored into the cost here, which isn't quite fair to Fusiliers, since Flaming wounds also buffs all other humans around as well.

 

Save	Fusiliers with Alchemite	Blissbarb Archers	Lumineth Sentinels	Vanguard Raptors with Longstrike	Man-skewer Boltboyz with Swampcalla
2+	3.39	2.37	2.64	2.32	1.84
3+	4.19	3.56	2.97	2.80	2.12
4+	4.98	4.75	3.30	3.28	2.41
5+	5.78	5.93	3.63	3.77	2.69
6+	6.58	7.12	3.96	3.77	2.97
-	6.58	7.12	3.96	3.77	2.97

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They are high because they currently do mortals in addition, while most other shooting units do mortals "and the attack sequence ends". It may not seem like much, but at 3+/3+, the damage is significant. It accounts for about half the damage at a 2+ save.

Save	Fusiliers	Fusiliers +1/+1	Fusiliers with mortals	Fusiliers with everything
2+	3.5	6.22	9.33	13.22
3+	5.25	9.33	10.5	16.33
4+	7	12.44	11.67	19.44
5+	8.75	15.56	12.83	22.56
6+	10.5	18.67	14	25.67
-	10.5	18.67	14	25.67

 

Of course, there is more nuance to the whole thing. I would not want to claim that Fusiliers are clearly the best shooing unit in the game. As I said before, others have their own strengths.

A unit I forgot in my last post were the Daughters of Khaine bow snakes. They basically do Longstrike damage. They also get to double shoot, but need a 700 point Morathi to issue them a command to do it.

My numbers agree with yours if it's any help, though for reasons best known to me I worked it out for save stacking units as well, ever since being traumatised by a best day ever, all out defensed, mystic shield stonehorn. I mainly want to know when it's even worth shooting at a 0+ armour save unit. In that example it's still 10 expected wounds to a 0+ or 1+ save.

I think fusiliers are definitely an interesting unit. As I said I think I'll be looking at 20 with a warforger. Otherwise I think the way I'll be trying out cities first is with a shooting base, and sending out buffed up units in waves, 5 cavaliers with engage the foe, 10-20 corsairs with tenebrael blades, drakespawn knight with chariots etc.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

46 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

YES, they ARE poop!

*Rant incoming, coz the entire double page with them, the Fussil Major and the cannon is a instant mood killer every single time I go through the book.*

4+ 4+ -1 1 for 150pts is NOT a good deal. Saying stuff like:  "This is how all shooting in the game should be" (ok I am being a little mean here forgive me, but its a ridiculous argument) is just a coping mechanism for being dealt a subpar unit. But the fact remains that it just ISNT how majority of  main ranged units in the game are.

You need to overspend on Fusiliers with support pieces, drowning hundreds of points, limited traits and artifacts to make a subpar unit be somewhat worth their points.

Frankly same with the Wildhcorps Hunters. They too are 4+ 4+ outside of the unit champion who has the big arbalest weapon. Both of these rather expensive ranged units should had 3+ to wound for shooting at the very minimum (and Hunters also for combat), to be even remotely decent pick at that points range.

Its really sad that we are all to pretend like the "Fortified Positions" gimmick is such an amazing rule that elevates these 4+ 4+ -1 1 guys both in value and in price. When in fact they are just utterly bland. You look to your allied order armies and compare units of the same price category with them. Its not even a contest.

They should have been decent on their own, and become really good when invested into with support and unit synergy. Instead they are really, really meh on their own, and become decent only when you throw lots of extras in just to get some mileage out of them.

Haaah, Why cant GW seem to get the shooting of Cities gunpowder weaponry right I just cant understand. And they even took our Sisters of the Watch away just so we really dont have any other option than to opt for these...

I'm not saying they are poop. I don't think they are poop. I think they are a useful unit, I just don't think they are positioned to be a unit that you have to spam to get use out of them. A unit of 20 with flaming weapons will do a lot of damage. Shooting just cannot be as powerful as melee, because melee lets the enemy fight back at you and inherently puts the unit at risk.  I'll be looking at a unit of 20 as a powerful tool for triggering suppressing fire (including the battle tactic), and returning fire. Having access to those things is great. Is it worth it burning the Command trait on them? It depends, its maybe a 20% buff to the unit's expected damage. I guess it depends on what you would rather take in its place.  

14 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think the hitting on a 4+ actually make sense for the blackpowder weapons (primitive and no barrel-rifling on stuff like that), but they should wound better IF they hit....and probably just do MW on wounds of 6 instead of damage, or D3 damage instead of MW.  Archer Arrows should hit better in the Fantasy quasi-medieval but wound worse, but maybe with better rend.  THEN sprinkle magic dust on stuff.

The Alchemite guy isn't really that OP even at 90pts; it requires a spell to go off (easily countered by many opponents, or just easily failable), and he's pretty squishy himself (also very targetable by many armies with teleporty guys, enemy spells or invocations, etc). 

I just wish we had a cool unique monstrous action for the Griffon and sea-monsters. 

I really strongly disagree on the Warforger. I honestly think they guy is a strong choice if he had EITHER of his two abilities. I mortal wounds on 6s to hit in addition is such a powerful ability. Remember he has a + to cast.  With no other buffs he has a 70+ % cast rate. In Settler's Gain its basically on a 2+. 

Mystic shield to all humans around him is just insane.  He is very good.

 

What shooting units are people wanting comparisons to? I'm curious as to what people think the gold standard is.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This point kept getting stuck in my mind for some reason.

If there is a weakness in the design of the new Cities book, in my opinion it's the Alchemite. It's just kind of absurd that this little 90 point wizard gives out both the best offensive buff and the best defensive buff in the book, for any human unit.

 

41 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

 

I`d say the Alchemite will probably go up in price, to maybe 120 points which would be reasonable or possibly even more - hopefully not. After all his armor buffing makes him unable to cast so you are always using only half of his potential, either magic or bonus to saves, never both

 

@Neil Arthur Hotep Regarding battlemages I think the spells that are race specific are kinda rubbish considering all of them have relatively high casting values and not so mind blowing effect. But I can still see BMages be interesting pick with extra range or bonus cast item pick.

You can always default to basic magic missile, and with that extra range you can play them as magic snipers heh.

People talked about the Alchemite, meaning I get to yammer about flaming weapons and Fusiliers!

OK, so there are some slightly unusual things particularly with the third battle round reroll hits.

• If you have flaming weapons and reroll hits, but no AoA then you produce exactly the same expected damage by choosing to reroll all non flaming hits as you do just rerolling misses. If the target has a 5+ or worse save, you do better just rerolling misses. If the target has a 3+ or better save, reroll all non flaming weapon triggers.
• If you have flaming weapons and reroll hits with AoA but no +1 to wound command trait, then you are better off rerolling any non 6s. If the target has a 6+ or worse save its the same, but any better save and you are better fishing for mortal wounds.
• If you have flaming weapons, reroll hits and AoA with the +1 to wound command trait you are now better off only rerolling misses if the target has a 5+ or worse armour save, and otherwise fishing for mortal wounds. 

The improvements are mostly pretty fractional, and if the target has any kind of mortal wound shrug you are better off going for the reroll misses.

 

Here is the thing that is kind of nutty, looking at the warforger at 90 points, working out the expected damage done per hundred points (I realise this is a fairly arbitrary one, but its how I normalised efficiency) then 30 fusiliers and a flaming weapons Alchemite, assuming that the Alchemite is doing nothing other than casting Flaming weapons to buff the 30 fusiliers.

In the range of useful values, he improves how efficient the unit is dramatically.  This is the increase in expected damage to each save.

2+ 77.08%,    3 + 45.83%,    4+ 30.21%,   5+ 20.83%,     6+ 14.58%    

If you literally doubled his points to 180 those 30 fusiliers are still more efficient per point against all armour saves other than 6+ armour saves (You would also do an expected 38 total damage to 6+ saves, which seems like probably enough at that point).

2+ 51.79%,    3+ 25.00%,    4+ 11.61%,   5+  3.57%,   6+ -1.79% 

I think even conservative increases (like the 120 suggestion) end up being a pretty insane buff.

2+ 67.76%,   3+  38.16%,    4+ 23.36%,    5+ 14.47%,   6+  8.55% 

 

I'm not entirely sure what the fix is. Fusiliers really do seem to be all about that flaming weapon buff. They are beaten by a lot of the dark elf shooting without it, even factoring in the +1 to wound command trait. They are actually dramatically out performed by Handbow Corsairs (assuming the fleetmaster gives the AoA), who are not only more efficient on a per point basis, but also a 90 point corsair unit will do slightly better damage than the 150 Fusiliers. Scourgerunner chariots also come out well in this comparison.

Am I missing any buffs here? The main relevant ones I've seen are AoA, the command trait that gives +1 to Castellite units that get AoA, fleet master buff for scourge privateers and the reroll hits buff (That one is one I've only used on the earlier MW calculation. Its very good when you get it, but it feels like a different conversation). I will double check the corsair comparison since I did it quickly, and the result honestly surprises me.

 

I think if I was having to go for a fix for them there are a couple I'd look into

• Straight up double the points cost of the Warforger BUT make him be able to either activate both abilities or at the very least, only take away the +1 to cast when he does his shield buff. It makes him EXPENSIVE, but still very good. It also cuts down on the orders that you can give out, having a pair of Warforgers standing next to each other means that they can always have multiple orders ready.
• Increase his cost dramatically, but not fully doubled, but keep rules as written.
• Adjust his rules, make flaming weapons have to target a unit. 

 

 

[The Rumour Thread]

56 minutes ago, Trugg the Troggoth King said:

 

AoS designs tend to bring love or totally dislike for them, and that´s really good because nobody is indiferent to them. We can talk and discuss about models from totally diferrent points of view. Learning and appreciating details we could overlook.

This makes me think of a quote.

 

"If everyone likes your game but no one loves it, it will fail.” Mark Rosewater Lead Designer of Magic the Gathering.

Its talking more about game design, but I think it applies to a lot of stuff. 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

1 hour ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

Order of activations would be as follows.

1. Opponents normal charges

2. Opponents monstrous rampages

3. Cities counter charges and monstrous rampages, in your preferred order.

That's what I've assumed it was, which lets you escape your opponents monstrous rampages with counter charge. What confused me was a lot of people seem to pay monstrous rampages like heroic actions, which DO both happen when the player whose turn it is chooses. 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

So one thing that has been bothering me for a while is the Endless Spells and Factions terrain for new Cities.

In the previous book we had no Faction terrain with some niche but usefull ability so we got that neat little gimmick with endless spells instead.

Now we no longer have that, nor did we gain the terrain and also can no longer take any SCE units as part of our army instead of Allies... Thats a pretty substantial nerf as a whole. Now ofc its not impossible we will get a nice terrain piece, but that would have been probably included in the book already. Unless they gonna pull that Lumineth nonsense with us, and re-release this book once per year just adding few more unit profiles each time... ugh, talk about stupid AND predatory way to monetize.

Any thoughts on this matter ?

I really don't think its a nerf. The original gimmick with endless spells stopped being relevant (The spells being more powerful in their home realm one) and the thing about the plus 1 to cast on endless spells? They kind of moved it. Battlemages and Warforgers both have easy access to an inbuilt +1 to cast, and Sorceresses have access to +2 to cast. Battlemages can get +6 to the range of spells if you wanted instead and sorceresses can get a relic that also boosts their spell range.

If you go settler's gain then everyone has plus 1 to cast and Hallowheart gets you an expected +3.5 to cast with some minor 'splodies. (Side note, I'm pretty sure non human based wants to go Settler's and Human based has a push to Hallowheart if you have a command corps.)

My point is that you can do some pretty dang good endless spells stuff, and they are actively adjusting the "generic" endless spells. I'm really fine with this, and its honestly been pretty dang cool seeing people using a much wider variety of endless spells.

I remember when they were rolling out the terrain, and I've gotta say there were as many misses as there were hits. A number of them are just "There".  I can definitely see some cool concepts they could bring in for cities, honestly having cogforts show up would be amazing, but I'd rather they did nothing than do a poorly executed one that just hangs around forever. 

5/7 Chaos. 2/4 Death, 2/4 Destro, 5/9 Order have terrain (might be wrong numbers, I had to look up what some of the faction terrain even did) . Some of those are built in to do cool stuff!  Some are just there. Some used to do cool stuff and now would be better off just being a rule. Beasts of Chaos used to have stuff with summoning at the herdstone, but now you are incentivised to hide it in a corner to make it harder to destroy, since it's only function is to remove a buff if the enemy destroys it. 

As for the Coalition rules? Part of me is sad to see them go. Another part is me is kind of glad that you don't have "Oh a cities list did well, awesome...and that's just 1500 of dragons/fulminators/whatever else and 30 crossbows, 2 small heroes because the cities allegiance abilities worked better than the SCE ones. I suspect there is probably some middle ground that would work, but I'm fine for cities lists to be majority cities. 

I wouldn't be too surprised if they ended up releasing a second wave sooner than you would expect. I'm hopeful that if they did it might be a free PDF like the Ironjaws one is supposed to be, but I didn't mind too much the way they did the second 2nd Ed book, If I remember correctly if you had the first book and broken realms Teclis you didn't need to get the second book. The Third Ed book following quickly is a bit nutty I do agree, but it seems like that is going to happen if you want each army to get a book every edition. 

I think Orders has the potential to be such a powerful mechanic.  I've mentioned before that I think Counter-Charge is a kind of insane ability. Soulblight has a much more limited version of it, where it is A) once per turn rather than up to 3 times. B) can only be done if an enemy unit nearby the unit charges. Its immediately after that charge rather than the end of the charging phase, which has positives and negatives (It's a positive if they were going to charge the unit you Soulblight Countercharged with, its a negative since the opponent can then do the rest of their charges knowing where you charged. All this is before you factor in that it improves the units rend. 

 

Playing around orders feels like its going to be really difficult your opponent needs to be very wary about where they move their units, what units they shoot (Incidental shooting is really risky near a CoS unit, you might just be about to take a full volley of fusiliers). A lot of the non human units have built in bonuses to charge, and there is nothing stopping you command point rerolling a counter charge (Rules as written this works just fine, I can't see any problems with it). You can order an aelf unit to strike first (activate at the start of the charge phase). It only works if they complete a charge, but counter charge works. One think you can do is use it on a dragon behind a screen, then order the dragon with a different hero and slam into the enemy unit with an always strikes first dreadlord on black dragon that you have protected with screens. This may well be too many individual steps and run the risk of just falling apart, but its definitely an interesting one to try. I'm going to be looking at little mini combos to see how they interact. It feels like at minimum I want to try to have potential counter charges set up.

 

One thing I'm really interested in trying is doing this with Drakespawn knights and Drakespawn chariots. It might end up being too unwieldly, but the boosted chariot damage actually triggers on the ENEMY unit being near the knights. Nothing is stopping you charging the knights and looping them round BEHIND the target, and then charging the front with the chariots, leaving a hero within 3 of a chariot. Only one chariot needs to be within half an inch, the other 2 just need to be within 3 for their ability to trigger, the base of a chariot is 4.7 inches long, so that hero can be almost 11 inches away from the charged unit. If you wipe out the unit with the chariots charge (its an expected 14 mortal wounds) then you can use the drakespawn knights pile in to position themselves to screen the chariots. if you don't you might be limited by where the enemy unit is, but the knights can be expected to do fairly reasonable damage (9.44 to a 4+ unbuffed, with 11.8 with AoA). If the knights are free in the enemy movement phase you can use a redeploy to screen as well. 

 

This went past rambling some time ago, and I'm sorry for that, but the abilities just seem...neat. 

[Beasts of Chaos 3.0]

32 minutes ago, Xs_0013 said:

  

hat are your thoughts on a shaggoth to support the DrOgres? too much investment?

 

The shaggoth is just SOO expensive, might be the most overcosted unit in the game? One of my favourite models is my converted Shaggoth, but he is cheering from the glass cabinet until he's at minimum 70 points cheaper, and maybe 100 points plus cheaper might be needed.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm coming up with an average of 30 damage from a unit of 10 Knights with AOA on the charge and T.Blades on them.  By contrast just 20 damage from 20 Corsairs w AOA, though if they strike first, their swashbuckling could hit back a bit more of course.

You are absolute right on the knights, my bad. I was missing that the drakespawn actually have 3 attacks each. I think I just turned it into the normal 2 attack horse. The knights with AoA and charge plus blades do 30 wounds.

I get exactly 27 from 20 corsairs though. I think you might be missing the regular +1 to hit from AoA from the fleet master? That's 20.25 expected wounds, if they were 4+/4+. With AoA it's 3+/4+, getting 27.

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Why does everyone want to kill a megagargant in one turn?  What did they ever do to you?!  Leave our poor innocent giants alone!

But I would say a unit of 10 Drakespawn Knights w Tenebrael Blades and AOA on the charge (which theoretically could happen turn 1), possibly after a Steam Tank Commander with the Curse Prayer as cursed something, would be about the scariest thing.  Especially if you have 2-3 Drake Chariots hitting them simultaneously.  

Ten Drakespawn with AoA and Ten Blades do an expected 25.83 wounds. (EDIT Had a number wrong it's 30)

 

I'd be tempted to run 5 and 2 drakespawn chariots. That gets 13.33 (EDIT 15.4) from the buffed knights, and between 11.1 (to 2+ save) and 14.66 (to a 6+). Mainly because that way you can score a battle tactic from 3 aelf charges. It is 40 more points though.

 

Unfortunately Khari and Hydra damage doesn't work out amazingly. The Khari are slightly better than non charging drake chariots and slightly worse than non charging drakespawn knights. Hydra comes out slightly behind. I think the Khari wins for me with the ability. I'm not factoring in monstrous abilities, so that might be worth including.  

EDIT: to correct error.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

Looking at some numbers for different units. Been mainly looking at hammers at the moment. My thoughts are a mess today, so this isn't going to be very organised.  This is all math hammer, and spreadsheets. I know it doesn't translate over but spreadsheets help me work out what a reasonable expectation might be, for example 10 Cavaliers with Engage the Foe have a fairly good chance of killing a mega gargant in one activation, but nowhere near certain (On average you'd expect to do about 34 wounds to one). So you probably do want to soften it up first, or charge the mounted marshal with them. 

One thing to note is that counter charge seems very very good. I don't think I was thinking of how much difference the rend makes, but having access to a plus to rend is a big deal.

.Another thing is that Cavaliers honestly slap. I've kind of underestimated what they can do with some pretty easily obtainable buffs. A unit of 5 will do serious damage to a most targets. One thing I hadn't quite factored in was how well Flaming weapons works for them, since a unit of 5 has 26 attacks, that works out as an expected 4.3 mortal wounds in addition, jumping up to a full 6 for a unit with Engage the Foe.

Another key stand out is just what Corsairs will do to either low armour units or with Tenebrael Blades. A Fleetmaster boosted AoA unit of 10 expects to force through 14 wounds vs no saves. T Blades also lasts until your next hero phase, and I can't see anything stopping you from keeping a counter charge order ready for them if you get top of the turn and holding them ready for the enemy to risk getting counter charged by them. For a unit that you can use as a screen that seems kind of nuts. I've seen some people using big units of them, but I'm not sure its the best choice, I think mainly 10s with the odd 20. 

Looking at Executioners and Hammerers. Executioners do better damage to saves of 1+ and better. 2+ is equal. I was really surprised. That's also not points adjusted, points adjusted Executioners only out perform them on something with a 0+ save. 

I was quite down on the Dreadlord on Dragon, but he's kind of grown on me. He's not an efficient source of damage, but he will put out damage (Him buffed with AoA, command trait and counter charge is about equivalent to a counter charging unit of 5 Cavaliers) and he can lurk behind your screen with a counter charge order.

 

This has been a mess I freely admit, but I was wondering what are the numbers that people would be interested in?  

Like, can it kill a megagargant (35 wounds, 4+ save), can it clear 20/40 zombies? Which are useful armour saves people would like to test against? I've set up everything, but it ends up being a bit brain bending to parse. Same for defensive profiles, what do people think is the gold standard for "Oh god, blank has just hit my line and its going to hurt".

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

2 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

You're probably wanting to use Heroic Leadership every single turn, so I'm not really worried about the scarcity of CPs. I remember the last book you could roll in CPs if you chose the right city, now they feel more precious but you can do bonkers things with them, so I prefer it that way. 

Marshal with Relic friend can also give you a free use a turn.

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

I'm going through some of the rules and wondering how some effects work exactly. I realise that this is the kind of thing where I imagine the FAQ and Errata will probably answer but I have some unusual things.

 

• The way Advance in Formation is worded I don't think there is anything stopping you starting a Castelite unit next to one hero with this order, then moving next to a different hero with this order and fortifying there, leaving the first hero behind.
• Counter charge is an interesting one. I don't know how it interacts with Unleash Hell. Given Counter-Charge is End of the Charge Phase, I don't THINK you can unleash hell. The other one is monstrous rampages. I THINK you get around them. Both Monstrous Rampages and Counter charge are end of the charge phase. According to 1.6.2 if you have multiple simultaneous effects then the player whose turn it is would apply all their end of the charge effects before you apply yours, and you can then counter charge. I don't know how this works for your monstrous actions. I've seen a lot of people doing all monstrous actions together with the active player choosing first, but I can't find anything to say that you have to. If you don't have to then you could get a monster in with counter charge and still get a monstrous rampage.
• Return Fire. This one is probably more obvious, but this one is waaaay more flexible than it sounds. The unit that got shot does not need to be the unit that returns fire. You do not need to shoot at the triggering unit with your unit either. Also, this one doesn't actually say it triggers in the shooting phase, only when something of yours gets shot. I THINK you could respond to an unleash hell with this. It'd require some fairly specific stuff to happen, but I can't see anything stopping it. It would just need a hero sandwich, where a unit charges past a hero, but stays within 3, triggers unleash hell, then the hero gives an order back to a shooting unit. Also, I think in the mirror you can volley back and forth shooting if there are multiple Return fires. Other notes are that the SHOT unit doesn't need to be a Human, but the order giving hero and shooting unit DO.
• I have more but need to check wording. 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

Demigryffs are 75 by 45.

All the Stormcast options are 90 by 52 apart from palladors, which are 75 by 42.

 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

7 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Seems like they should be able to get off Tenebrael Shards much of the time with a sacrifice (so they'll need at least 20 Dreadspears for that).

...

Looking at the Cities tactics, hard to do too many with the Aelves.  Could do the 3 charging units one, possibly Suppressed Fire one with the Hydras, unlikely to do the Blackpowder one with any army unless it's just all shooty.

That's one I'm still wondering about that. I know it feels bad to sacrifice Black Guard to the sorceress but its only 40 or 50 points more to upgrade that Dreadspear unit to Black Guard, 

 

Suppressing fire is a human order I'm afraid. Aelf only lists can only really score 2 of the 6 book tactics. I don't think the GHB ones are too bad to score for Aelves though.

Intimidate the Invaders is pretty auto, Reprisal and Endless Expropration are pretty situational but theoretically doable, Magical Dom can be pretty auto complete as well, Magical Mayhem is not a particularly good choice but possible if you wanted to try and force a blizzard through. Bait and trap is a pretty good choice for aelves honestly. Lead into the Maelstrom seems scorable with some builds, either a Sorcerer General with Black Guard battleline (sure you have to charge with sorc but she will still have the 4++ ward) or the scourge build, it's not a favourite tactic though.  Surround and Destroy seems pretty achievable as well. 

So Aelves only lists don't end up too bad I think.

Both book ones seem very good if you are running Drakespawn. I'd also put Intimidate, Magical Dom, Bait the Trap and Search and Destroy in that category as well, so that is 6. The rest are more situational but its weirdly ok seeming for Aelves on battle tactics.

This might be too rosy a view though, I can tend to be an optimist.

[The Rumour Thread]

I'm mixed on adding leaders to AoS. I really like it in 40k but not as sure how it would go in sigmar. 

Here is one thing that I think might be an interesting one, the priority roll. I'd be interested in seeing what switching to a warcry style roll off would be like. To explain warcry has a roll off at the start of each turn where each player rolls 6 dice. Separate into singles, doubles, triples, quads. The player with the most singles gets to choose who goes first. The doubles, triples and quads can be used for abilities. They also have a wild die system for modifiying, but thats less important. Have something simple like a command point for each double and some other rewards for triples and quads. 

The other change I'd be interested in would be moving the hero phase to start of the battle round, and shared. 

[AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

  Hide contents

Oh wow, so I went through the book and to be honest I strongly dislike it. Even hate it all things considered They removed some of my favorite units, Shadow Warriors being one, Pistollers being second. Srsly... the Demigryphs are also gone.... I cant believe they scrapped those as well... wow, I havent felt this dissapointed with a new army release for several years.

The first one I can understand though I hate the logic behind it.

The second I dont understand at all. That was an iconic unit of this army even from before AoS, and it was a GREAT unit.

And all of HE and WE stuff is just gone like that as well. Basically all that money, time and effort gone. I guess that was to be expected considering CoS book was a amalgamation to keep the old fans around. Shame on me having hoped for them to keep it and work on that multiracial themed city with all sorts of fun builds.

We got no replacement for that, zero zilch. Hell with removal of the Wood elf units, we lost the other fast, ranged cav options as well (to hell with Dark Riders).

Why GW ? Why was it necessary to remove this unit. Taking away Hellblaster and Hellstorm battery and giving us a crappy cannon in return. This entire book feels like a nerf to me. Even if not to the rules, than to the FUN aspect for sure.

Bunch of skills becoming HUMAN only, gives you a very clear idea where this army is going and whats going to happen few years down the line once CoS get the "next" book. No more DnD fantasy style mixed race cities. Sure some of the new stuff is cool but frankly it doesnt matter to me if bunch of my stuff cant be used any longer.

And whats pissing me off the most is, that sure ok take away the units, fine. But REPLACE them with units of equal worth.

The Ogor is a joke of a unit... and its a single model unit as well. Sure as hell wasnt worth loosing those Demigryphs over it.

I guess thats it for me as a CoS player... damn this makes me sad, unless GW suddenly adds bunch of those units I have to find a new placement for my miniatures with some other army, and I dont think there is one with the range of units to cover for the old (still current atm) CoS book. I still remember the joy I had making river bases for my Demi proxis... all of that worthless now. Maybe if they release the revamped Oldhammer Fantasy they might still see table, but thats a big if and when.

Just me venting the sadness and disappointment after reading the soon to be current battletome, feel free to skip.

I absolutely understand the disappointment of units leaving. Some of them I don't quite understand, others I kind of do, but regardless it sucks. I ended up with at least 2k in elves that rotated out. For some of the units there is a good substitute, but others are harder. If you want to vent I understand completely and feel free to ignore the next section.

The easier unit proxies I see are.

Empire

Free Guild General on Foot -> Freeguild Marshal

Freeguild Crossbows/Handgunners -> Fusiliers (Needs rebasing, and perhaps parvises if you wanted)

Free Guild Guard -> Steel helms.

Free Guild Pistoliers/Outriders -> Caviliers (More of a stretch, but freeguild on horse is still freeguild on horse. Doesn't have range but is charge dependent. More of a fix for pistoliers)

 

High Elf.

Phoenix Guard -> Black Guard (Elf with halberd to Elf with halberd, this is what I'm planning on doing).

Shadow Warriors/Sisters of Avalorn -> Crossbow and Sword Corsairs. (I'm looking at doing this as well with my shadow warriors, and it lets you easily tell the difference between the double blade variant as well)

Phoenixs -> Black dragon riders, either dread lord or sorceress, just be clear.

Wood Elf.

 

Wildwood Rangers/Eternal Guard. -> Wildwood Rangers fit neatly as Executioners, I built my eternal guard without shields so I'm tempted to run eternal guard as executioners as well, though dread spears are also an option.

Sisters of the Thorn/Wild Riders -> Drake spawn Knights are still elves riding unusual mounts. 

Nomad Prince -> I'd probably run as one of the other elf heroes, either a sorceress or a fleet master. 

 

There are some harder things to work out what to substitute I have to admit, where you run the risk of making it too confusing. The difficult ones are.

Hellblaster/Helstorm.

Freeguild Greatswords.

Demigryph Knights.

I do wonder whether there was originally a heavy cav option and a heavy infantry option that didn't make it in, there is some speculation that there might be a wave 2 faster than you'd expect, though I'm unsure as to how much people are hoping on that one. My advice for these is more of a stretch.

The hellblaster and hellstorm, I think the closest is to mount it on a larger base including the crew and run as the new cannon. I'm still not sure how big the cannon base is, you could do some earth works around it to bulk up the original artillery.

Greatswords I think you run as executioners and just stress to the opponent that they are aelves and therefore cannot get human buffs. Its not the best, but it is the closest option that preserves their role. If you want to keep them as human, steel helms.

Demigryph knights are the one I'm struggling with the most. The best I can come up with is mount three on a single large base and run as a monster, probably the steam tank. Its a bit of a weird push, but best I can do.

 

Longer term, if you wanted your models to have a home in say, 4th or 5th edition? There are definitely options in lumineth. All the spear using aelves can be Lumineth Wardens. Shadow Warriors and sisters can be sentinels, riders can be Dawn Riders, heavy sword users can be blade lords, and I quite like the idea of using the halberd elves as stoneguard. If they ever remove aelves from cities they have a home in lumineth. 

As for dwarfs, the only way I see that happening is if there is a new dwarf faction that ends up taking the iron drake/breakers and long beards,.

 

I'm not trying to say what happened wasn't heart breaking, but I'm trying to look on the bright side.