Icarion
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Posts posted by Icarion
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Well there we disagree strongly. A company making money on a product is one of the only ways we have to objectively determine whether people think their product is good.
There are cheaper or even free hobbies while Warhammer products are expensive. You can find almost all the rules for free online. You can even buy cheaper alternative models from other companies or cheaper still 3d print your own.
yet year after year GWs profits soar, and if you adjust for inflation their price markups aren't that drastic over 20 years, so it seems the only conclusion that we can realistically draw from that data is that something about the warhammer game draws people in a keeps them there as a customer.
They have a good product so sayeth the market.
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10 minutes ago, stratigo said:
One of their games literally died and the other took a hammering for years when it was at its absolutely least balance. Balance has some effect on the success of the game.
Oh I agree that balance has an effect on the survivability of a game.
I just don't think the sales data supports that balance in aos is bad to any reasonable comparison with other GW games.
I'd also argue that warhammer fantasy dying had more to do the expense of starting the game than balance. Both 40k and AoS have a much lower price barrier to entry than fantasy 8th edition. To support that I'd simply say that GW is making more money than ever as a measuring stick of how popular their products are.
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Because there are tons of other games out there, with tighter balance, and yet GW continues to dominate the market.
Their rules have always sucked, balance has always been fairly loose. But still more people join their game than are driven away.
Edit: In my 20+ years of experience, the people who continue to play warhammer do so FOR the weirdness, the oddities of game design in warhammer systems that prevent perfect balance. I've seen lots of people try these games, find out it's not for them and move on. But the people who are still around me, still playing, edition after edition seem to do so out of love for the oddities and quirkiness of the gameplay.
And if those quirks get ironed out in the pursuit of a balance GW games have never represented, I imagine many of those players would move on as well. Not all, but many.
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3 minutes ago, Battlefury said:
Might well be. But should it be? That's the question we shall agree on. And that's why I ask you to choose, before we discuss further.
Of course wanting better balance is a great goal to have, but gamesworkshop games have never, and likely will never be able to have the perfect balance a lot of gamers argue they crave.
Warhammer is warhammer, and not chess, because of the wacky and weird things that are capable in game. There are too many armies, with too many miniatures, and too many rules interaction to make true balance realistic. The only way to have a perfect balance is to iron out all of that flavorful wackyness.
And honestly, if they did that, I imagine far more players would leave the game than would be retained thanks to excellent balance.
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2 minutes ago, Battlefury said:
Let us dive into a fictive scenario:
2 Friends decide to get into AoS. Both of them have enough money to buy a 2000 points army.
Regardless on what they buy, should they have an equal chance to win when playing against each other?
For me the answer is a clear: Yes.
Is it like that at the moment: No.And it never has been.
Balance in aos seems to be no worse than balance in any version of warhammer published thus far.
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34 minutes ago, Battlefury said:
Looks like that, yes. BUT, not only looking at competetive games only, the big gap between the best and the worst armies is too big, to justify the "rule of cool" while buying and choosing an army in any way. That will curse the long time game experience for certain people drastically.
But that has literally always been the case.
If the fear is that AOS's lack of balance will drive away new players, because of bad early matchups, there is more than 30+ years of evidence to prove that is a bogus concern.
Warhammer games have never had the kind of balance where you can pick anything, and have a good time playing against anything, and yet, for 30+ years the hobby has grown and is bigger than ever.
Does poor balance drive away some players? Maybe.
A meaningful amount? That requires drastic recorrection of game balance? If sales are anything to go by, and tournament participation, AOS is more popular than ever, so clearly more people are being drawn into the game than are being driven away.
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Balance in AOS seems to be in a pretty great place to me, in comparison with 40k and 8th edition fantasy.
The majority of armies seem to be in the fat middle of win rates.
And that seems like a good place to be.
Looking at the data that users like @LuminethMage posted, and has been collected elsewhere over the last year, there is a great variety of armies and subfactions scoring in the top 5 of events. And if there were some major problem with current game balance, I don't think that would be the case.
All told, I'm excited for some small tweaks to the core rules in AOS 3 to improve this system even further.
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People will whine about anything.
GW said Broken realms will touch on every army, and the new slaanesh battletome was not tied to any specific Broken realms book yet released.
And you thought that meant every army but mine will have supplemental rules in a broken realms book? by the end of this every army is meant to have rules in at least two places, Slaanesh despite getting a new tome, is no different.
Silly.
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Setting aside the grungi vs grombrindal speculation thread
I have a theory on how they might resolve the destruction of the realmgates in Chamon, with the arrival of new duardin factions.
Back in the old world, one of the things the dawi were famed for were their massive continent spanning underground highways called the 'Underways'
What if that is what Grungi has been working on building under the mountains of Chamon? A new means to connect the realms together, separate from the realmgates, sort of a order version of the skaven gnawholes.
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My reasoning is that GW cannot leave the whole realm of Chamon inaccessible permanently, so there must be some solution down the road to save the realm, and I think Grungi building a new underway, could a be a cool reimagining of old dwarf lore, in the AOS setting.
I know the popular theory is that he has been working away at a new duardin race, but I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive, and if someone is going to save Chamon, it should be Grungi and his godly artifice,
I also imagine if would take literal armies of duardin under Grungi's instruction to construct something so massive, so that could tie it in nicely with unveiling the remiagined dwarves as duardin, that everyone seems to be clamoring for.
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SO, a couple of things I noticed finally reading BR: Teclis.
1: Alarielle warns Teclis that "there is a traitor within your ranks". Is this referring to Morathi's betrayal in the first book, or is someone else going to be a betrayer?
2.: Tyrion is off fighting someone who is claimed to be more dangerous than Nagash. Additionally, they clarify that before Tyrion disappeared, he was last seen heading towards the pit of Cathartia, which is the big dark spot in Hysh/realm gate to Ulgu. Who would he be fighting in Ulgu that is stronger than Nagash?
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14 minutes ago, HollowHills said:
Anyone else wondering why Morathi and Kroak are buddies now?
A snake is basically a legless lizard when you think about it and Mortathi leads the snake ladies.. And who leads the lizardMEN? Mama and PAPA reptile confirmed.
Seraphon are all about stars, so i think Morathi/Kroak are confirmed star crossed lovers.
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Oh man new Kroak, did not see that coming!
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3 minutes ago, Joseph Mackay said:
Seraphon don’t ‘inhabit’ the Cities as far as I’m aware, additionally they’re much more independent from the rest of Order so I don’t think it’d make sense from a lore perspective
Well, we have examples of Seraphon embassies in cities of sigmar already in the lore.
There is this great quote from the AOS RPG about Anvilguard before its fall:
QuoteThe fell effects of the Necroquake devastated Anvilgard. As it passed over the Charrwind Coast, the skeletons of countless primeval reptiles rose up throughout the (ironically named) Crucible of Life and attacked the city en masse. Anvilgard’s valiant troops were aided by warbeasts unleashed by the Order Serpentis, but the city still may have been overrun, if not for the appearance of an army of Seraphon. The Seraphon emerged from the jungle surrounding the city and shattered the undead before soon disappearing back whence they came.
Soon after the battle, a Skink Starpriest named Ze’Bul’Ka declared to the Grand Council that the Seraphon felt very much ‘at home’ in the Crucible of Life and would be staying. He promptly withdrew to a lustrous, green stone building sitting on the outskirts of Anvilgard, which no one could remember appearing, yet neither could any recall what had once stood on the spot. Representatives of the Seraphon are said to receive worthy petitioners at the ‘Jade Temple’, though few dare approach them. Undead reptiles are now just one more menace of the Charrwind Coast and the folk of the city do their best to ensure that the many meats they sell are truly dead before they are brought to market.
From this, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to imagine a city with 1 in 4 Seraphon allies.
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12 hours ago, stratigo said:
Alright, here we go!
So, GW has historically favored elves in both their major settings, in both rules and fluff. As a non elf player (and, for fantasy a dwarf player) I have always been kind of sick of it, but with Phil kelly at the head, this isn't going to change. I hope that the elfapolooza has enough room to squeeze something satisfying for my faction (KO) out of it, but, honestly it is looking like kharadrons are gonna get a big ol' skip for a minimum of three elf focused books plus bel'akor (which could have a surprise elf focus). I do find this disappointing, but not unexpected as a dwarf player in the face of the elves. But at least they aren't space marines.
You know, ifs funny how entitled that sounds.
Fantasy dwarf players got two faction releases within the first few years of AOS, both of which expanded key sections of the classic fantasy dwarf lines.
Fantasy High elf players had to wait 5 years to see any aos releases, and now suddenly you resent them getting their day in the sun?
Hardly an example of GW elf bias.
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1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:
At the very least, the move 12" during your opponent's shooting phase surely has to go away. And beyond that, I think the combination of being able to pile out and reduce pile-ins to 1" is probably really bad game design that is going to result in serious NPE for melee-based armies, which already have a hard time as it is.
Again, we disagree on the minutia, but are of the same mind on the broader point.
The 12" shooting move during opponents turns is obviously an oversight. And will/deserves to be removed/FAQ'd.
But I love that he can pile out 3" and reduce enemy pile in to 1". You may deride it as NPE but I call it a brilliant mechanic to force interesting choices on an opponent. Severieth is a threat, and if you can lock him in combat you HAVE to strike him first or risk him fleeing. It makes him an interesting piece to tempt a 2nd or third charge for lumineth players, when you know the enemy will charge you elsewhere on the board. He will make opponent make difficult decisions on combat order when they have more than 1 to pick, and that alone makes him a wonderful unit for the game. Both for lumineth, and opposing players alike.
I feel you have a very narrow view on NPE, and tbh I think this mechanic makes the in game choices way more important/meaningful for opponents, and so improves the enjoyment of the game by leaps and bounds.
I'm not saying you are wrong (NPE is personal) but please don't call it that, until you have had to make that choice in a game yourself to decided whether or not it made the game more exciting/interesting. playing against Sevireth (I believe) adds risk, and rarely does that lack a sense of accomplishment or excitement to a game, I've found.
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1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:
They shouldn't have given Teclis access to the wind or earth spells IMO. That would make the faction a lot more interesting, then you would actually have to choose what you wanted in a list, not just get itall on a wizard who literally autocasts everything and knows 20+ spells.
From a lore and gameplay standpoint, I think it is very on brand for Teclis to know all the spell lores, but I agree giving him the choice in game to choose from all of them at once is both overbearing, and a huge time sink as players will like have to take time to decide which spell seems best to cast from moment to moment.
I think a better option to fix this would be to give teclis access to all the spell lores, but make him chose his 4 spells before the game like any other wizard. Makes people commit to a strategy, but keeps the allure of being the "mage god"
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Just now, SpiritofHokuto said:
Isn't going to be the easiest thing to do, especially with being able to move 12" in both shooting phases.
Again I hear you, and no, it's not easy.
BUt people have been able to tag the boats in combat for years, and they can literally teleport where ever they want. We are restricted by movement.
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3 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:
Yeah, it's more of an exacerbation of progressing problem I guess.
I do hear you. But compared to a kharadron boat, Either of the fox spirits have fewer wounds and a 5+ save.
Mean comparatively so long as a moderately sized combat unit can tag him, he is probably dead.
Trust me, the boats are much tougher to take down in combat than one of our foxes look on first glance.
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35 minutes ago, SpiritofHokuto said:
I can see Sevireth being a potentially massive source of NPE for armies that don't/can't have a decent ranged presence. Plinking with relative impunity for the first few turns, and even after that trying to break through phalanxes of Wardens or the like. Even if you do, it can just dance away 36" whilst shooting you. Not unbeatable, but incredibly frustrating and quite frankly would be unfun to play against. Can also position, focus down support heroes and escape with relative impunity.
And yes magic/prayers is an alternative, but you have to be in range, LRL aren't exactly lacking for unbinding prowess, and it still has a 5+FNP.
But then again against certain armies, it'll fold like a cheap suit.
Its less of a problem than fighting multiple Kharadron Boats constantly flying high to teleport away.
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5 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:
In this points value I may be tempted to get more than two boxes of these guys.. 🙂
Could be, it could also be a typo in the Italian army book. Typos on points in different language books do happen semi-frequently with GW.
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As a positive side, note, it looks like the Lumineth leaks might be real.
Todays WarCom article about changes to nurgle warscrolls, and the rules for the Hysh City of Sigmar matches up perfectly with the rules that were leaked yesterday with the Lumineth stuff.
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I hear you guy, I do.
But for me, principally, Warhammer is a social hobby, and one of my favorite things is making new hobby friends through pickup games.
And having an assumed army bias being accepted as conventional wisdom, presents a hurdle to that happening. It's by no means insurmountable, but I'd rather try and nip it in the bud if that is even possible.
And I also hear the argument that "people who don't want to play you, are probably people you don't want to play in the first place." While generally that might be true, It's hard to for me to blame someone who doesn't want to play lumineth if all they hear before the game is that the army is broken. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, or wouldn't make fun games, and I want to try and push back (as futile as it might be,) from letting that type of myth from becoming dominant in communities.
To each their own I suppose.
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OOOF.
That General "lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion" Thread is getting exhausting.
I know it might seem best to not engage, and let it blow over. But I can't. If you let people start making the claim that something is broken, or should be banned from tournaments, without stepping up and pushing back against it, you end up giving anyone else license to use that argument as an excuse, and all of a suddon the guy you were going to have a pickup game with refuses to play you because he read that your army is "basically cheating" on the internet.
I did my bit. I see @LuminethMage did his.
Anyone else want to step up and carry the load for a while?
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6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:
About that ignore battleshock. How about ignoring battleshock AND bouncing that to one of your units instead of their own? You know, what the Cathaller can do. Without costing a command point.
Totally missed my point friend.
The example is not fun at all for an opponent. And it shouldn't be. That doesn't make it a bad rule, trying to make every rule in every army "feel good" for both players leads to bland armies. If you want to play a perfectly fair game, try chess, Warhammer is fun because of the wacky ways situations can skew.
Though I'd be cautious of Chess. I hear that white always goes first and that seems broken to me, that may lead to serious NPE. 🤣
Discussing balance in AoS
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted
So your argument is that people spend tons of money on a product which is bad? We are talking about a luxury item which people are under zero obligation to purchase. They buy this product despite there being plentiful cheaper versions, or even the option to print their own?
And this is the product you think people view as bad?
I suppose the truth can be terrifying.